Heath Evans thinks EVERY one of our draft picks will fail! What!?!

I wouldn't have necessarily replaced Burnett with Wheeler. I thought Burnett played well last season. Either way its more about a fundamental view of free agency to me. The winner's curse is very real IMO. I almost never a fan of big FA signings. It is extremely rare to get a FA that presents value-added. IMO Wheeler is one of those guys, primarily because he hasn't had a real opportunity to shine. Grimes could be another guy that presents value-added, because you're taking a risk on him recovering from an achilles injury. Those are the type of signings I think are good.

But the salary floor isn't just applied to one season. Its applied over a rolling 3-year period.

 

And really to be honest, the only FA signing I'm not a fan of was Wallace. Wheeler, Ellerbee, Grimes, and Clabo are all signings that I like.

But when you have that much turnover and money given out to new players, there is a lot of inherent risk.

 

Browns yearly CAP average is almost $4 million less than Wallace. That's pretty signifigant to a team that is last in the league in cap space, and Brown is much better than anything Miami had. You said it yourself, they'd have to cut Polamalu to sign Wallace and they'd still be in the same cap situation they are now. My point is that $12million a year for Wallace in Miami is different than $12 million a year in Pittsburgh. Do you think Pittsburgh could match Detriots Calvin Johnson contract? Does that mean that Johnson would be less valuable to Pittsburgh, or does it mean that the teams aren't in the same salary cap situations?

 

Yes, Pittsburgh could make room for Johnson if he were to be available. They choose to give out those contracts that left them with only $500k, fully knowing that would preclude them from retaining Mike Wallace.

 

Why would you assume the Steelers would not relish the opportunity to take on Calvin Johnson even with his contract?

 

How so? That means they wanted Wallace over Brown but couldn't afford it. That doesn't mean that Wallace is less valuable, it means they were poor.

 

but isn't that the point that we are making? Evans seems to think his value wasn't worth Pitt keeping him.

 

I am assuming in the hypothetical that they couldn't match Detroit’s bidding.

 

Pittsburgh essentially said that Mike Wallace wasn't worth it. Heath Evans is saying that because Pittsburgh feels this way, that tells him that Wallace is now overpaid.

 

He is not being paid by Pittsburgh. Miami had a much greater WR need and much more cap room. Using Pittsburgh’s needs to assign value to Miami’s acquisitions seems like pretty poor analysis to me.

 

...but if we can afford it, how does that negate his value to our team? teh money is not the issue here. how he fits with the team is

 

After all that I said, how can you justify that your response isn't trollish? I never said that part was controversial. Why can't we just have a discussion without you pulling this crap? If your stance is strong, you wouldn't need to resort to acting like this.

First off, Holmes is not a bar that a player should be measured against to decide if they are good or not. And the only reason he brought up Holmes was to illustrate another WR they didn't re-sign.

Again with your ****. I never said they offered him that much and your weak attempts to keep the argument there are silly. He was saying that Pitt didn't want Wallace because he's flawed. They did want him back. What precisely are you not getting about that extremely simple concept?

 

Every team in the NFL has the same salary cap number. How they choose to allocate it is up to them. Miami does not inherently have more space than Pittsburgh.

 

Money absolutely is an issue. It is one of the most fundamental tenants of the NFL.

 

Did you type that with a straight face?

 

When did I say otherwise? They wanted him back, but they didn't feel he was worth what Miami thought he was worth.

And again, I would suggest that if you can't resort to calling people trolls, and trying to make things personal, you refrain from posting. You may not like my "****" or me pulling "this crap", but you need to be respectful.

 

Would you care to make a thoughtful response?

 

I just did make an adult response. Did you have a straight face when you wrote that?

 

The bolded part is pure assumption, based on no evidence.

The rumor is that they offered Mike Wallace more money than Antonio Brown which means if all was equal they'd rather have Wallace. But all isn't equal. It isn't about affording, it's about what a guy is worth. They thought Brown was worth what he could demand from them in an extension. In fact they gave him that extension after he'd only been in the league 2 years which to me indicates they thought he'd end up worth more than what they gave him. They didn't think Wallace was worth what they'd have to pay. Their response when Wallace rejected what ended up their final offer...was immediate.

 

As much as it would increase traffic, my face is not a subject to be debated. Discuss the topic.

 

I didn't want Wallace either. Preferred Domenik Hixon and an early draft pick like Bailey.

Cause you know Hartline is a number 1!

 

They don't get reset on their money every year, so yes Miami did "inherent" more cap space this year than Pittsburgh. Even if both teams cut every player rostered at the start of this season dead money because of the different contracts that the players have means that they wouldn’t have the same amount to spend.

 

Sorry it is on topic, were you serious or were you joking?

 

You also need to be respectful Stringer. And when you say things like:

When I never said that or alluded to it, is by definition being a troll. I wanted to have a rational discussion, but you are the one purposely pushing buttons to keep it from being that. I've stated my stance repeatedly and you keep arguing with me over things I didn't say. I've gotten to the point where I'll stop if its someone else, but you're a mod and know exactly what you're doing. it isn't right. I'm not insulting you or trying to insult you. I'm merely reacting to what you're doing.

Seriously, why can't you address the things I've said in this discussion, instead of making up the talking points?

 

Pittsburgh chose how much cap space they have this year. They actively chose to have their salary cap situation. They chose to give guys like Ike Taylor and Willie Colon big money when they knew Mike Wallace's contract was expiring.

Could you imagine Ryan Tannehill turning out to become a Pro Bowl QB, then when his contract expires, Miami doesn't have the space? When do you ever see teams get caught not having space? They plan out how much money to make available based on their priorities. In this case, Mike Wallace wasn't a very big priority for the Steelers.

 

yes you are right it is an issue for teams that have managed their caps poorly. it just so happens that during this cap tenre we have managed our cap in such a way that we could afford him and thus mitigates your generic all teams have the same cap space BS. the reality is all teams have that same cap to spend to, we had more room to spend and there fore could out spend Pitt in this instance. that does not mean that Pitt did not want him because they could not match us or that he is less than talent wise.

 

Bolded is my evidence.


I feel like we are playing word games. Again, you are talking about worth relative to the Steelers. Also, I mean by "afford" is the ability to spend money, i.e. Cap space. Pittsburgh’s cap number on WR's is higher than Miami's this year. If they had Miami's cap space there is no evidence that they wouldn't have made Wallace the same offer that Miami did, particularly if they had the same WR situation. Which is why using Pittsburgh’s valuation of Wallace as the standard of what Miami should have paid is wrong.

 

Excellent analogy.

 

What exactly is wrong with that? Heath Evans thinks that Dion Jordan is a pass-rusher only. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, do you think Evans' assessment of Jordan is outlandish? Personally I disagree, but I don't think its an opinion that should warrant criticism. I absolutely can see how someone could watch Dion Jordan and have questions about that.

If you think he's a pass-rusher only, do you believe that taking a player thats one-dimension is worth the #3 pick?

 

My point is that team's are in their cap position because of the decisions they make. When Pittsburgh made the decisions that left them with little cap space this offseason, they did it fully knowing that Mike Wallace was going to be a FA. Pittsburgh absolutely could have matched Miami's offer, but they choose to pay other guys knowing that would reduce their chances of signing Mike Wallace. When it comes to re-signing your own, there is a lot of maneuverability.

 

and that makes our paying for him bad how exactly?

this has nothing to do with his ability or how he may fit or help our team. the money in this case is a moot point. like the pickup or don't but don't try to play word games to justify a personal preference like Evans did/does.

 

Opportunity cost. That is money that could be used on other players.

No, the money is never a moot point. Would you have been ok giving Clabo $10M? Wheeler $10M? Of course not. Just because someone is a good player doesn't mean they are worth what they are being paid.

 

We've gone from mass media communications to financial accounting. If this were a sports bar, we'd have to rely on Mr. Clean passing the cell phone around full of scantly clad chicks comprised of no less than three nationalities, with none of the countries of origin sharing a boarder with the other. Make the hurting stop. If this thing gets passed to KB and we start talking about Dion Jordan's innate physiology to support Heath Evans' claims I'm going to have to ask everyone to leave the sports bar.

 

personally unless the team is absolutely in a mess as it was previously I really don't care what we pay people. if we get talent in here and we are ok cap-wise then as a fan it really doesn't matter. the fact that people are so concerned about the teams spending habits is just beyond me. don't spend enough and we are crap. spend too much and we are crap. just get talent in here through the draft and good FA and win games.

 

Do they have the equivalent of a Brown as a backup? How bad is the CAP situation? And you're talking WR vs QB. Tannehill is another point; do the Dolphins have the money sink of a Roethlisberger? Paying for that contract bleeds over to the rest of the positions. How much more could Wallace help Ryan than Ben? The teams aren’t the same. The needs aren’t the same. The personnel aren’t the same. The schemes aren’t the same. The salary caps aren’t the same. Yet, we should take the Steelers valuation of Wallace to be the same as the Dolphins? There are plenty of reasons to think Miami overspent on Wallace, I just don’t see Pittsburgh as one of them.

 

I don't think you are creating a fair argument. You seem to be saying that every player is worth the exact same amount to every team. If Pittsburgh feels they have other options at WR, they may not value Mike Wallace the same as the Dolphins - who desperately needed help at that position. And the Dolphins were bidding against what other teams that needed Mike Wallace were willing to pay.

It also assumes that every other team is in a cap position where they will never have to make a hard decision. The Ravens gave Flacco a giant contract and lost Ellerbe, Boldin, and Kruger - does that mean every team that signed them overpaid because the Ravens were unwilling to pay what they paid?

Now, if you provide evidence that other teams in FA were not willing to give Wallace comparable money, that's a fair argument (and probably true). But assuming every team has the exact same needs and values every player at the exact same dollar amount is disingenuous.

 

Wasn't the argument posed that PIT wanted to keep Wallace, but just didn't have enough cap space? Wouldn't that be a good example of why one should be concerned with the teams' spending habits?

 

and it doesn't address how he fits in Miami's scheme either. who really cares if we over spent for him, we were rather active this off season and I don't really care if not everyone is spectacular with their decisions and don't do what they would have done and how that hurts their feelings. how this team performs is what i care about when all is said and done. then we can look to see if a pick or FA was worth while or not.

 

I don't care about their cap spending, just makes us able to take a player of value from them. still doesn't devalue the player in terms how he may or may not fit in Miami.

 

All of these things that aren't the same are by the teams' design. The things you point out as being different are all results of choices and decisions. The rules governing the decisions made by these teams is exactly the same. The goals are exactly the same.