Mike Wallace thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by BlameItOnTheHenne, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
  2. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Really? So show me the instances where he runs the COMPLETE ROUTE TREE with the PRECISION that Greg Jennings runs his routes......or Jordy Nelson.......or Donald Driver.......or James Jones.......or Randall Cobb......
     
  3. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I went back to look at the ALL 22 film Wallace played in, once against the Bengals and one against the Jets. He can run most routes. It's not perfect, that is, just not absolutely sharp, but he gets enough done. He ran a good 20 yard comeback route I liked the most. He can read defenses from what I can see, and can find holes in zones to sit in. He will continue to get open on broken plays. Of course he has speed and he only dropped one ball in those 2 games (a simple out route on 3rd and long) which he should have caught.

    I like him. I think he can fit the system. He just learned some west coast offense when Todd Haley took over as OC last year. He needs to refine his route running and timing based catches if he joins the Fins but he's not a neophyte. I can see why the Fins coaches would like him if indeed is true.
     
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  4. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...ard-mendenhall-lead-list-of-risky-free-agents

     
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  5. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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  6. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Not only that:

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...allace-struggles-to-focus-in-steelers-offense

    He OPENLY ADMITS that he loses focus when the play isn't directly involving him. That makes him a great fit in the Dolphins offense, where he will be running a lot more routes to get someone else open than he will be running to get himself open.
     
  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That article is Nonsense.

    The Steelers offered him a large contract and he refused. That author should, "Think about it."

    For a guy who didn't learn the new offense and is terrible in a west coast offense, he sure did ok at 800 yards and 8 TDs in Haley's dink and dunk (which I know isn't a WC offense). Imagine when we have him for the whole offseason ;)

    As of November, Wallace had run 3 go routes all season. The previous year he said he was running 5 a game.

    So the took away his one trick, and he still had a decent season. I call it decent but compared to our anemic WR production it was more than decent. That's with no training camp. Yes I know, training camp was his fault. But we sign him and he doesn't have that problem anymore.

    I'm kind of excited to sign him now. Hope we do it. Don't hope it's higher than 10 milly tho.
     
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  8. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    The only thing I don't understand is why so many are willing to shell out millions upon millions for his talent. How is his physical talent/skill-set any different than some of the receivers that are coming into the league this April? For comparisons sake: How is the physical talent of Mike Wallace different than Oregon State's Markus Wheaton? And then compare the investment as well.

    Sixty-six percent of the investments made in free agency don't live up to the value, by the way.
     
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  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Since we're posting articles:

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolp...polian-on-mike-wallace-and-greg-jennings.html

    Pro-Wallace Guys. Look at Polian's history, and he's an actual GM vs. all these other never employed by the NFL in their lives.
    Con-Wallace guys. Look at Indy the past couple years (but they've had decent WRs no?)
     
  10. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    They didn't take away his one trick. He still ran more 20+ yard routes than he had done in the previous two seasons. He effectively took his one trick away with his pouting and lack of focus. He caught only 19% of the 20+ yard passes thrown his way.

    But this is what you want to spend $10 (12+) million on....a malcontent diva who is a limited route runner, is horrific on jump balls, has no physicality to his game, and is a below average redzone threat.
     
  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We're about to spend $6 million on a no jump balling, no juking, no outrunning guy. So who knows.

    Again, preaching to the choir. Maybe you should send an email to Joe telling him he's making a horrible mistake by asking for Wallace. I have no doubt in my mind, Philbin is 100% behind it if we sign him. None. If there is evidence to prove me wrong, show it to me I'll be happy to change my mind.
     
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  12. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I have very little doubt that Joe Philbin is not in support of bringing in Wallace and that this is a move that is being looked at more for the flash value than the actual football value. Why would Joe be in support of either limiting his passing offense or changing it all together to fit one player?
     
  13. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    AMERICA!

    You stated " He can't run 3/4 of the route tree" which I called BS on. Now you want to change you argument to the COMPLETE ROUTE TREE and throw in PRECISION of other wr's.

    Amazing.
     
  14. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Wallace makes our offense better. He will open Hartline up to more deep plays. Think about this....Hartline had 1k yards last year against every defenses #1 corner. And all the attention. Put Wallace on this team and Hartline/Bess/Hopeful drafted TE get single coverage and they light it up.

    Also, Wallce brings safety and corner down the field, it opens up Tannehill some running lanes if he takes off as well. Gets guys out of the box which will help Miller break runs.

    I love it.
     
  15. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I'm not changing anything. Mike Wallace only runs 2-3 routes well. Everything else is below average to down right pathetic. Now, if you want to limit his position to those 2-3 routes (because that is what those of you who support signing him support, as you want Philbin to have him do what he does well and not so much of what he doesn't do well).

    So, in the process of trying to limit what Wallace doesn't do well, you start looking at the routes:

    1. Out breaking patterns - There is documented evidence that supports the fact that he does not run these routes well at all. He's close to being downright pathetic at it. He doesn't run them at the proper depth, and he rounds the routes off. Mike has trouble sinking his hips enough to make sharp cuts, so he has to take too many steps to gear down to make a sharp break. So, this is one of the routes you don't want him running very many of. It just so happens that the out breaking patterns are a staple of Mike Sherman's offense, and it is also a route that Ryan Tannehill is very good at throwing.

    2. In breaking patterns - There is documented evidence that supports the fact that he does not run these routes well at all either. Like out breaking patterns, he is close to being downright pathetic at these routes for the same reason. He doesn't sink his hips and takes too many steps to gear down before making his break. These square in and dig patterns are major parts of the timing based passing concepts in the west coast offense. So, you don't want him running very many of these.

    3. Quick hitch patterns - For the same reasons he doesn't run outs and ins very well, he doesn't run hitch patterns well either. So, you don't want him running many of these.

    4. Snag patterns - It would probably be a comedy of errors on his part to run a snag route, which is another staple of Mike Sherman's offense.
     
  16. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    You thought the same thing when Brandon Marshall was acquired. Oops. Marshall didn't make the offense better.
     
  17. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Still hopeful we can pick up Keller too. He would stretch the field and bring the coverage in towards the hash marks.
    What D would they call? Pick your poison..
     
  18. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Not his fault he had career back ups throwing him the ball.
     
  19. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    SICK was actually right -- Marshall did make the offense better. But the quarterback position was really lacking. You know what they say, can't make chicken salad out of... you know the rest.
     
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  20. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I think you're over-exaggerating a bit, by the way KB. Wallace does run a limited route tree, it's true, though not as much as you note, but he's not much of a diva as you note. He's something akin to a choir boy when you compare him to many of the other egos at the position. I'm not for Wallace -- in case one hasn't noticed in my (over)abundance of posts -- because of the sheer amount of money he would cost. I think you can find guys like him in the draft market and be much more efficient of an investor. That's where I think most of the people I've communicated with differ with me on. I think his skill-set is limited and they do not.
     
  21. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    If the offense was better, then it would have produced more. The fact that the limited quarterback position in Miami limited Marshall's impact shows just how little impact receivers make overall. Marshall put up big numbers in Chicago this year, but like Miami, he didn't make their offense better either. The fact that he has to be thrown the ball all the time actually detracts from the offense and keeps the offense from taking advantage of the attention he draws.
     
  22. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    This is where you're wrong. That's not always the case because unlike some of the other sports, football is a team-oriented game. What Marshall did was make the easier to read for the quarterback and open up gaps in the defense where there previously weren't by forcing the defense to play specific coverages. However, the rest of his supporting cast was unable to take advantage of them.

    In addition to the above, another issue with your proposition is that you're assuming the quarterback is without fault. That's simply not true.
     
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  23. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Yet, those same players that apparently couldn't take advantage of the space Marshall created for them produced an offense that was almost the equivalent of the Marshall offense despite the fact they were playing with a rookie quarterback and in a completely different system.
     
  24. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Quantitatively speaking, I think there's an argument that a guy able to produce so well on such a little workload is pretty rare. Probably not rare to the point to justify the contract, but rare enough it's unacceptable in the context of big money free agency?

    I think it's hard not to look back and think you should have paid the same kind of money for Vincent Jackson if this was really what you wanted.

    That's better than I thought it was lol.
     
  25. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Where everyone here is wrong is the bickering between you girls.
    Jeez, everyone has an opinion and maybe a fact/point to prove, but I don't recall any of you knowing what the team is going to do in reality.
    Always been this way here.... too serious.
    For all the high and mighty. Lighten up !
     
  26. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Different system - yes. It was better designed than the one Marshall was a part of. That is obvious. As for the quarterback situation, there were less touchdowns thrown in '12 than in Marshall's final year of '11.
     
  27. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    As in yards per reception? Yes, that's true. I believe it's one of the highest ever. But I also think that's to be expected when you consider how he's getting the ball, no?

    As for Jackson, probably but I think the concern was his character. He has a couple of DUI's I think.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Orygun
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Orygun
    Nothing but speculation unless you have some proof.
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Earlier today you said he was vertical only. Now you said he runs 2-3 routes well. Which is it?
     
  31. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Do you have proof that he is willing to sacrifice precision and timing in his offense for the sake of speed? If you do, then show me the previous receivers that Joe Philbin and Mike Sherman have coached that were not precision route runners and played because they had great speed.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Do you think that Ireland would sign Wallace against Philbin's wishes?
     
  33. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    That is vertical only. Go routes, post routes, and corner routes are all vertical routes, and those are the only routes that I've seen Mike Wallace run with any consistency.

    You need to go back and study your routes. It's no wonder why you think Mike Wallace is a solid route runner. You apparently don't understand the difference between vertical routes and horizontal routes.
     
  34. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    If that is what Stephen Ross wants, absolutely.
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure, but I think his value lies in that. A really fast guy with a limited route tree isn't rare, but I don't think you see many whom are as flashy or productive. Yards per catch is pretty well a measure of it, but I think there is a lot of value if you can get a guy who gets a workload basically like a "#3" guy in terms of targets and be a 1100-1200 yard guy.

    The question if is that because he's special, or because he's been put in a position that is unwieldy or unwise to try and reproduce?
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    I know of no other GM who ever signed players that the coach did not approve of because they didn't fit the system. I see no reason to believe Ireland would be the first. You have the minority opinion on this, that Ireland is going to sign Wallace while Philbin is vociferously protesting in the background. Therefore the burden of proof should be on you. Not on those of us who believe Ireland will conduct business like 31 other GMs.
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    He can run slants. He can run crossing routes, very effectively. I've seen him do it.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    I was directing that question to Alen. I already know how you believe on this.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They lost their top two WRs and he replaced their production. Without Marshall, without Knox they'd have thrown for 2,000 yards.
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because speedy guys come into the league all the time and they don't do squat. When speedy guys come into the league and do do squat, you take notice.

    For 3 years they knew he was going to beat them deep, and he beat them deep. Last year they changed the offense and he didn't have a superstar season but still produced.
     

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