It's really ridiculous that people keep saying things like this. Hartline was top 10 in the NFL last year in deep receptions and yards on deep receptions. He regularly beats his man deep and his deep pass numbers would have been even better but for some bad passes when he was wide open deep. [video=youtube;caOLVfH45oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOLVfH45oo[/video] [video=youtube;qobFJL1tgeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qobFJL1tgeU[/video] [video=youtube;OQLQA810E5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQLQA810E5Y[/video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXnA5ux0gE&feature=player_detailpage#t=173s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXnA5ux0gE&feature=player_detailpage#t=859s I know people will point out that he often faisl to keep his feet after the catch. Fair enough. But when he catches a 40-50 yard pass, I don't start cursing and throwing things. I cheer. Maybe I'm just a "glass half full" kind of guy. The point is that Hartline successfully runs all kinds of vertical routes without limitation and very often gets open doing it. On most fo them, he is not just open, but wide open.
Some more plays where Hartline got wide open deep. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXnA5ux0gE&feature=player_detailpage#t=1005s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXnA5ux0gE&feature=player_detailpage#t=1101s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXnA5ux0gE&feature=player_detailpage#t=1301s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLd0DC0RhzY&feature=player_detailpage#t=307s
IIRC, it's been stated numerous times by both Ireland & Philbin that they work together on decisions like these, and wasn't it reported that Philbin was the one who pushed for BJ Cunningham? Are you really complaining about a receiver's scoring production who averages 9 TDs per season the past 3 years? That's the same average as Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, and AJ Green..... and since 2009 the only receivers with more TDs are CJ (38), White (36), and Colston (34); meanwhile, the guy you stick up for has less TDs in his career than Wallace averages per season. Cmon KB. The guy doesn't need to be an elite redzone scorer when he has 24 TDs from outside the 20. Those are 24 redzone trips that NEVER happen b/c Wallace punches it in before hand. No missed FG to worry about, nor turnover, punt, or penalty that moves you out of FG range. BTW, Wallace has more redzone TDs than Hartline has total TDs.
Also, Hartline caught 44% of the deep passes thrown his way. Mike Wallace, 19%. So, Wallace is a vertical only receiver whose vertical production is declining. That's a mix for a very bad free agent signing.
I'd still rather go with Jennings and draft another with the 1st pick in the 2nd. Nothing to back it up, but I feel like Jennings would be a more willing mentor to a young reciever and be a major improvement at th same time.
I wasn't in the band and never went to band camp. But if you have video . . . . uh, on second thought, never mind . . . .
Or you could say Tannehill was pre-tty darn accurate with his deep throws. No wonder Ireland & Philbin wanna get him a legitimate vertical threat.
Greg Jennings is a better fit, period. Miami would be much better off and getting him for $30-35 million over 3 years than they would be by giving Mike Wallace $60 million over 5 years. The Wallace contract is one they will be trying to find a way to get out of within two seasons. Greg Jennings is a player that will likely be very productive over the life of his short term contract and will probably be willing to resign down the road at a cheaper rate. Greg Jennings is an infinitely better route runner. He can run a complete route tree, and not only that, but he understands coverages and the sight adjustments he will need to make based on said coverage. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...st-a-product-of-aaron-rodgers-and-brett-favre From the end of the article: Valuing Mike Wallace's vertical ability over Greg Jennings's completeness as a receiver will be a tragic mistake that will ultimately cost Jeff Ireland and likely Joe Philbin their jobs, and on Philbin's part, it is likely that he will be drug kicking and screaming towards signing Mike Wallace. My hope is that all the Mike Wallace talk is a smoke screen to hopefully get Jennings on a short term deal. If not, then we will be sitting in the same spot in 2 seasons, only looking at changing coaches and systems yet again because of a poor personnel decision.
I agree, other than falling down faster than Ted Ginn after making the catch. BTW, since this is the Wallace thread, where do you stand on him, sir?
You haven't seen American Pie? It's a line often used by Alyson Hannigan's character, before she starts going into more detail about things she did with the instrument she played, which happened to be a flute.
I have nothing at all against signing Jennings. He is plug-and-play in this offense from the first minute of the first day of camp. However some of the propaganda being spread about Wallace around here is hyperbolic nonsense.
What is sad is the propaganda spread about Hartline. At least Hartline IS a Dolphin. All these people defending a Steeler. It is sickning.
I don't think Wallace is an ideal fit for this offense due to some lack of precision in his routes, but I don't believe he is anywhere near as limited as KB and some others think he is. There are things he does very well and others that he doesn't do that well. He can be successful if you have him do more fo the former and less of the latter. That is largely what the steelers have done and he has been productive there. I think he can do similar things here, but I'm not sure he'd be quite as productive. Although his deep passing numbers were a little off last year, I have always thought Roethlisberger throws one of the best deep balls in the NFL. I think Tannehill is decent at it, but not as good as Roethlisberger. Tannehill also isn't (yet) quite as good at buying time, which has allowed Wallace time to get open deep. So I see Wallace as a 60-70 catch, 900-1100 yard guy here. His TD numbers will depend a lot on a bunch of external factors -- TD receptions really aren't very predictable. That's good, but not $12 million per year good. At $9 million per year I like Wallace, but I think $11-12 million is too high. Of course, average annual compensation doesn't mean much. A 5 yr., $55 million deal averages $11 million per year, but if it is structured as $1M, $2M, $5M, $12M, $15M with a $20 million signing bonus, it is really just a 3 yr deal with cap hits of $5M, $6M and $9M before you release him after year 3 and eat the remaining $8 million in signing bonus. That's a deal that is very palatable for the first 3 years and the cap hit after 3 years isn't grossly out of line. So that's my long-winded, somewhat wishy-washy answer to your question.
I've seen it. Not sure how it relates to Brian Hartline, but the flute thing is why I don't actually think I'd want to see the video (assuming phinsational isn't a hot chick).
Isnt this the point? Philbins offense doesn't have "vertical only" WRs. They all have to be disciplined rout runners who's routs run open the field for other WRs. This is the argument KB is making, that Wallace is known as an I disciplined rout runner who is also admittedly selfish in his dedication when he's not getting the ball. Philbins offens isn't predicated on play action and a QB that moves around till the WR is 60 yards down field. No one is saying that Wallace is a no talent wannabe, the question is, does his style of production, so far, translate to miami's offense. It seems he's a square peg, and we got a round hole. All the proclamations of "needing his productivity" is naive at best.
Hmmm....how can this be? We are led to believe that Wallace is ONLY a vertical deep threat incapable of anything else...yet his stats on passes from 0 to 10 yards are better than Hartline's....yes, that is certainly a puzzler. How does he do it? How can he do it.
and what I'm saying is none of us know what Miami's offense truly is with Wallace in it until we see the product on the field. You're assuming Ireland & Philbin would take this immensely talented receiver and try to fit him as a square peg in a round hole, when in fact Philbin might have a desire to curtail the offense to be Wallace friendly. We already have 2 great route runners/possession receivers in Bess & Hartline so I think we can stand to add a speedy playmaker who isn't. We'll obviously know the truth when FA hits b/c Wallace won't be here unless Philbin feels he can make it work. BTW, Wallace's presence certainly does opens routes and space for other receivers, tight ends, and backs. His ability to create space and make defenses have to defend more of the field is one of the reasons he's such an attractive get.
I think what some of us are trying to figure out is weighing the pros and cons of the player, he might lack some precision in his route running, but he's a legitimate receiver, not a track guy running around for show, this guy will take a 2nd player on the defense away from his original responsibilities, which has tremendous residual impact on offense, just imagine what Eifert or Austin or Keenan Allen+ A Hartline/Bess could do with all that extra space, imagine what it can do for a young running back like Miller with all that responsibility that's being placed on his shoulders..Man out of the box, man out of the blood zone, Eifert would own the middle of the field.. One thing I do think that's getting lost in this fine debate is the talent level of Greg Jennings who has natural speed as well..he's not just a consolation prize, he's a great receiver, not good, great.
If you care to simply look at some of the videos and gifs posted in this thread you can see plain examples of Wallace being more than just a vertical threat.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/...ce-is-better-fa-receiver-option-than-jennings Attached is an article by Prisco who comes down on the side of Wallace
I just don't believe that Greg Jennings will hold out for 10 mill a year..as much as I love the dude, I ain't paying it.
Wallace is going to get more money, Jennings will be thirty years old, I don't think Jennings is infinitely better, I think they both can be incredibly impactful to our team with the right components around them, but Wallace will get more on the market, I have my ceiling at 8 for Jennings and 10 for Wallace, if they both say yes, I take Jennings..if one says yes and the other says no, then I might up the annie a bit to secure one..we're talking about a depleted unit KB no?
I've really started softening on Mike Wallace. I think it would still be risky, but I've come off the smoking ruins and franchise contraction ledge. He doesn't run a lot of routes well, but I'm not sure one monkey stops no show either. If your other guys can run routes well, I think you're not hamstrung. You're going to make your concepts less egalitarian in terms of the distribution of vertical routes, and consequently take away some of variability that is inherent to the offense, but to a degree where it no longer works? I'm not sure that's the case. You're going to have to change things, but I'm not sure to the point where your core principles have gone by the wayside. I think there are also some mitigating circumstances in regards to timing. Mike Wallace makes a fair amount of his deep plays within the context of the normal timing rhythm of the play. There are a lot of instances where Wallace made plays when the quarterback was able to hit him down the field immediately at the top of a deep drop. You've also got to consider how often/well Tannehill is extending plays and looking down the field. There's also the influence and ability to expand the Gary Kubiak/Mike Shanahan-style parts in the offense with more play action/bootleg elements.
I think that if Philbin likes him, then, right now, I will be pleased to have Wallace. I never liked that he doesn't catch a lot of balls. He has probably just relied on his speed a good bit. But, watching Green Bay in the past there have been many times they strike on simple streak patterns. I agree that if there is a well designed play a player like Wallace can still get open. And, he's young enough that he can still improve. I loved Jennings - just loved him - at GB. And would like him now. But, there is a Q-mark about his health. It is very tricky. I don't envy Ireland's position (but that's not a statement of support for JI).
I really commend you on that one. This is what I've said all along. If Ireland is gunning for Wallace would he do that if Philbin is in his ear everyday saying he better not sign that one trick pony? With Ireland on a perennial hotseat is he going out on a limb and signing Wallace with his head coach telling everyone in the organization it's a bad idea? Wallace opens up the field for everything. Perhaps Philbin is thinking Wallace is going to open up space for his offense to operate, and oh by the way maybe catch 10TDs and 1,000 yards as well.
I just really worry about 1 major factor when it comes to a contract this size..and that's hunger, and what that means to his work ethic..I think you have to totally believe he's wired differently before you give a contract like that to someone, I mean he better be an animal in his strength training, and love love doing it..if I saw him labor ing during the process of working on his craft and not a true enthusiasm, I would be out no matter what. I'm gonna start looking into that side if him see what I can find..think it's really important.
"The guy is a phenomena," said Ward, who clearly hasn't heard about the Steelers' cap problem. "He changes the defense. He makes you play Cover-2 all the time. You put this guy in one-on-one coverage and not too many guys who can run toe to toe with Mike Wallace. For the Pittsburgh Steelers, they need to try to find a way to keep this guy. He helps the other guys, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders, and opens things up for them. Hoefully he can sign and stay with Pittsburgh."
A Jennings is still a better fit because of his route running. With Greg Jennings, we don't have to drastically alter the offense and limit it the way we do with Mike Wallace. With Mike Wallace, you basically eliminate 3/4ths of the route tree at his position, thusly limiting your ability to use multiple passing concepts with him on the field.
