Where does the credit go for this amount of cap space?.. Armando defends Ireland.

Or, simply that some don't buy into the its one extreme or the other. It could be that he doesn't get a free pass as the only means to get support. It could be that people see that it isn't that bad. At the same time there will be those that will see it as not that good. But neither position is 'he can do no wrong' or 'lynch the ****er'. There's a great deal of middle ground that provides ample opportunity for people to show their displeasure or acceptance so to speak. Unfortunately the largest part is for the most part being overlooked, so that many can be allowed to take a position at either end of the extreme spectrum.

Extreme sells newspapers, and helps chicken little with his 'the sky is falling' theory, but doesn't do a lot for more reasonable, thought provoking arguments. Which, frankly is a shame.

In my experience, (which is by no means an altruism) the truth lies somewhere in the middle of either position.

 

And for me, that is Ireland exactly.
He is somewhere in the middle. Very mediocre.
He leaves you wanting more. Which is all I want out of my GM and for my football team. More.

 

Good point, but you have to also add the fact that each of those guys have serious flaws....Smith is inconsistent and stiff in coverage, Jake has had injury issues that might indicate his body is breaking down, Clemons is a mediocre starter at best and Hartline, while I think a solid WR is at best a #2 and could never be the focal point for the QB... Given these facts, is it such a bad thing to think that letting some or all of the go is the right thing to do ??

Irish is in a precarious situation right now. We can argue the last 4 yrs as to whether or how much Quitcells influence affected our success. We can argue the Sparano factor and lack of good coaching. We can argue how much some of the pieces we still have are overpaid and we can argue the acquisitions that simply didn't work out...

This time in a year or two the only logical conclusion we can come to would be that Ireland didn't pick the right acquisitions this offseason. Its a bit of a shame for him, because there are still going to be questions about the coaching staff, injuries, etc that can affect our success but this one offseason will be Irish's defining hour here in Miami...

If he pulls it off, we're all happy and he takes his place as a solid GM....if he doesn't pull it off...we are back to square one, once again, and looking to the next regime....a place all of us have been in too many times...

 

I think the rational thing to do was to clean house after Parcells left but whats done is done. I do like our coach, I hope that we can use our cap space wisely and build a good core with our draft picks. I hope Ireland proves the naysayers wrong but I just don't think he's the man for the job here, hope I'm wrong.

 

That's not rational though. Rational is systematic approach to eliminating potential issues until the cause is identified. Your approach is akin to saying my car won't start so I should buy a new one, when it could be that the thing was out of gas. What you're doing is what I call the Wile E. Coyote Conundrum...something doesn't work once, trash it and start over.

 

The overwhelming majority of players taken in any given draft will not be re-signed beyond their rookie contract. It's not a reasonable measure of success when it is by far and away the normal outcome. It's not failures, either, there are loads of good players who it occurs with as well.

.

 

He deserves some cred for putting us in a position for a drastic improvement, but he has to follow through with it now. I'm a big supporter of Ireland as you may know.... but talk to me when we get our 8th win next year. We have no excuse not to be a better team. We'll be better adjusted to the 4-3/ west coast schemes. Gotta usher in those new uni's with a strong start too !

 

Here's the thing: He's positioned us. We have the picks and cap space. This is really the defining year on him to me.

 

There has been no better year to let players test the market. The money for them isn't there. This could be the best way to resign players on the cheap. Maybe, they all get offers that knock them off their feet and none come back, I doubt it, but we will see.

**edit** think about it, the big spenders are mostly in cap hell, the cheap teams have room, but they're cheap. That's why they have that room. Tampa is the only one with new enough ownership to be a question. Anyone worried that the Bengals are going to outbid someone for a player?

 

Exactly. The cream of the crop guys like Wallace and Spencer will get major paid, as usual. But the middle tier guys who normally get big deals due to teams overpaying, I think we will see much less of that this year. It's a buyers market, especially at WR, OT and CB, meaning Hartline, Long, Smith, etc will have a hard time getting anyone to match their demands. And even if they do, there will be several players with similar talent available for less.

 

I'll give him credit for having a plan, or at least what appears to be a plan.

I'm not giving him too much credit though, have to wait until it all plays out.

 

You also have to take into tax considerations. Florida's favorable taxes allow us to offer less money to FA's and still have a competitive or equal contract.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

I agree. He's not Matt Millen.

He's in the middle. He's about a 7 on a scale of 16

I cross my fingers he gets it right this year. If there is ever a year he gets it right, it has to be this year. This is a guy after 5 years has gotten us one elite playmaker or player (Cameron Wake). A couple more really good players, and a few that can be (but the jury is still out). He has NOT shown a great eye for great talent. Just good enough talent.

I'll join in with all dolphin fans and pray he reverses his own history and knocks it out of the park.

But I'm praying and not expecting it, due to his own history.

 

Lol THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT! These are all players Ireland drafted, signed or traded for and we really couldn't give 2 ****s if they all walk lol...

 

I think we are in the middle of a change in the business operations of teams. By that, I mean that the ramifications of the new CBA are just now beginning to change the way teams plan their caps... Some say that Irish did wrong by having all these guys come up to FA at the same time. The difference is that with the new CBA, the younger players don't get the big bucks they've gotten in the past in their rookie contracts and more are willing to move on to get those big paydays. I think it's a foregone conclusion that this group and the next few years' groups are going to be more apt to test the FA waters for that very reason....Even teams that have been notoriously good at cap control (Steelers, Jests, G-men, Packers, Chargers) are losing/could be losing some decent players this FA period where that has not been their MO. We can't really judge Wash and Dallas because of their sanctions, but it's happening all over...On the good side of this, this year we see more fairly decent players available in FA as compared to what we've seen in the past, so from that perspective, Ireland has set us up to do some good in the next month or two... I don't know if my reasoning is clearly stated, but I think that this is a trend we'll see more of.


Now, as to whether Irish as done well or not done well for us to be in the situation we are currently in, you could say that he's done poorly for us to have 9 key guys in FA at this point, but at the same time, my guess is that several of these guys are guys that don't fit well in Philbin's system and they'll chance rebuilding with the cap savings and extra picks in the draft rather than keep putting square players in round starting spots... Looking at it like the latter, you could say he's done a good job to create the space and assets we now have....

The question is going to be will he find round players for the holes that Philbin has slated for his team...

 

No we're not.

But we're letting the same guy who picked these guys in the first place, pick the next tranche as well.

So in 4-5 years, are we going to had a bunch of middling FA's again? That's our fear.

 

Actually, I think we have more intimate knowledge of our own FAs weaknesses and how they have/have not worked in our system versus FAs from other teams.... For example, many Stillers fans don't want any part of Wallace, yet most of the fans here think he may be one of our missing pieces...

The other thing that has to be kept in mind is that the current Fins group of FAs we are talking about were chosen for a different regime and coaching staff... Each of our FAs has flaws that make re-signing them questionable, for us.... For example, Long's situation is over injury fears, not his ability to perform (again, when healthy). Hartline is a solid #2 WR that we were forced to utilize as our #1...even Jeffy knows this. Clemons is a mediocre starter, so he's in your category above. Bush is a very good RB. His age is his downfall, something he'll have to face no matter where he goes...he's been very productive for us and he'll get paid somewhere and we likely will replace his production expending less cap money. Fasano is better than what most Fins fans give him credit for, but not a playmaking TE that this day of NFL covets... Smith, while he fits into your category, he is a solid starter...with limitations... Someone will pay him even with those limitations. Stark's is worth re-signing, even at the tag price. MMoore will be a coveted backup QB somewhere, but just might end up somewhere where he can compete for a starting job. There are teams that he fits into. So, this group isn't quite as bad as you make them out to be, for someone, perhaps even back here for us, if we can re-sign them for the value we put on them. That unfortunately may not be the value other teams put on these guys...

I just don't see this as a blanket "Irish sucks" issue... There are several teams in the same boat as we are although most of them don't have the other resources we have (extra cash and extra picks)...

 

I agree.Would love to see that happen. Not a bad problem to have in 4 years.

 

Of course having a ton of cap space is more important, than you know actually having a winning season.

Ireland's job is to put together a team that is successful on the field year to year (*cough* Pittsburgh *cough* New England *cough*). Salary cap space only matters when it prevents him from keeping the key components of a winning team on the field.

Saying Ireland is a good GM because he has a lot of cap space is a bit like saying that a team is in good shape because they have the best field goal kicker in the league. There may be some situations where that is really helpful but there are more important things that need to be done first.

 

Lol lol lol. U don't really have a point. Lol lol lol.

We could reup all of them, none of them, or anywhere in between. Obviously you're going to pay a premium in order to keep impending FAs from testing the market. So all Irish has done to this point is say he's not going to out bid himself. The FA market is relatively well stocked and we have plenty of cap space, more than 90% of the league iirc. Why over pay to keep these guys when we have a shot at getting better players or a the very least gettin our current guys to sign for less than what they are asking?

Let the FA period begin and see what happens. Then we can make some sense of how Irish planned and executed his strategy. Till then, lol is about all you can say.

 

The Cleveland Browns have about 50 M in cap space and fired their decision maker Mike Holmgren.

Sooooo

 

If the Browns had a QB they'd be in good shape. They'd be in even better shape if the didn't play in Cleveland. Only Buffalo, Cincy and Minnesota rank ahead of them in terms of where players typically don't want to go.

Either way I think we'll be able to land our share of FAs and we have 5 of the top 80 picks in the draft. Who's got it better than us?

 

wrong, if they're good enough players, you lock em up before they test the market, like Green Bay did with Jordy Nelson, Patriots with Gronk and Hernandez, Steelers and Antonio Brown, Texans and Foster, etc. Giants just got a deal done with Beatty before FA started, did they overpay? they extended him early because he's such a good player they didn't want to risk losing him and financially it made more sense to get a long term deal done rather than tag him. our problem is our front office and the fans don't give a **** about our free agents because they aren't that good, NOT ONE of them have consistently played well enough to warrant an extension, they're all pretty much expendable.

it would be one thing if we had a new GM coming in, he probably wouldn't have much interest if at all in bringing any of our free agents back, he'd want to part ways with all this sub-par talent that we've relied on for 4 straight losing seasons. unfortunately Miami still employs the same guy who acquired all these mediocre players here in the first place.

 

LMAO, how about the teams that actually win in this league?

 

I think the Browns have more holes than just QB. The Bengals have even more cap space AND a nice young core of players. Should be interesting to see what they do.

 

the Bengals have more cap space than us, more talent than us, and they've been to the playoffs the past 2 years. if we're supposed to be this excited about a man who's presided over a losing team 4 years in row just because he's got some extra picks and cap space well then **** March and April must be Mardi Gras in the city of Cincinnati.

 

Ironically the best thing the Bengals can do to get over the hump??

Fire Marvin Lewis. And that's free.

 

Youre a funny guy, gotta hand it to you.

The Giants cut Bradshaw, Boley, and Canty. Osi is a FA, as are Cruz and Bennett. But if you wanna hold Beatty out there to make yourself look silly then be my guest. Nelson got a new deal, Jennings did not, Woodson was cut, Cullen Jenkins walked and was cut by the Eagles. Barnett walked also. Do you have a link for Hernandez and Gronk bc last I checked they were still playing on their rookie contracts while Welker and Talib have yet to be signed. Brown was given a deal, Wallace was not, Harrison is likely to be cut along with Colon, Mendenhall is a FA, and Ben is restructuring to to try and save them some cap space.

Who are we cutting or restructuring? Nobody. We are not cutting guys bc they we over paid or to get under the cap. We are choosing not to re up guys until we explore the market and draft pool to see if we can find better or cheaper talent and production. Meanwhile the Jets extended Sanchez now they are stuck with him, cutting vets left and right, looking to trade Revis, and still in cap purgatory off of a 6 win season.

Anyone can pick a winning team, cite a few moves and say ah ha thats why they are good and we are not. Lucky for us Irish is making the same types of moves you're describing. Keeping guys who over perform, avoiding bloated contracts and building primarily thru the draft.

Your frustration is clear and understandable. But you don't seem to have a firm grasp of what you're talking about. This is what happens when you come to your conclusions prior to doing any analysis. It's not a surprise but as a fellow fan I'm hoping you get it together at some point.

 

The Bengals chase money not wins. If they can win for cheap great but they arent going to go all Dan Snyder chasing a Super Bowl ring. It's common knowledge at this point. Marvin Lewis has zero playoff wins in what, ten years? And his job is as safe as ever. Half the Super Bowls have been won by 6 or 7 teams while most of the league has 1 or less titles. That's not by accident.

We seem to have an owner who is committed to winning and not just maximzing profit, which is half the battle.

 

Oh yeah? All the winning teams in the league are in a better cap situation and have more draft picks in the top 85? You've just been awarded the "Irrelevant Post of the Year".

 

and ruin a portion of our entertainment?

 

I think Marvin's job security is firmly tied to Andy Dalton at this point. Marvin Lewis, without the job title, is the chief personnel decision maker for the Bengals. The year Cincinnati drafted Dalton, Mike Brown wanted Ryan Mallett and deferred to Marvin to make the call.

I guess you could consider it surprising if you are from outside Cincinnati, but in town, people are secretly wondering if Andy Dalton is really the man for the job. He's struggled against most good defenses he's played against and tends to crumble in the 4th quarter against better teams. I think that Dalton's going to be in the midst of a make or break season in 2013, and if they don't make the playoffs and get at least one win, I think Marvin Lewis will be out of a job and they'll be looking for some serious competition for Dalton this offseason.

 

Those are dumb comparisons, you don't dump a car if it breaks down, you get it looked at. Its pretty standard to get rid of the front office when they draft poorly and hire terrible coaches, IE wasting millions of dollars, it usually means the end for the front office. But somehow Ireland convinced Ross that it was all Parcells (and a lot of fans too), I don't buy it but hey I hope I'm wrong about the whole thing.

 

If Lovie Smith can get fired, and Andy Reid, anyone can be fired.

As for the cap space, there is also a rate of return, basically we've gotten 22 wins out of the guys who are FA's, that is a really poor return for a team that consistently drafts in the top 15 each year.

We can do much better imo, a part of me would like to see Ireland pick up more high picks for 2014 via trading back in this draft, but tbh, this draft class looks weak to me.

I also believe Ireland should be completely objective and accept the fact he does not have a good eye for:

-Te's
-G's
-Cb's who produce turnovers

If I were him, I'd prioritize signing those position this offseason b/c I'd just accept the reality that my process is flawed.

 

I see.

You just basically ignored everything I said and started back at the horrible drafting thing.

You: Ireland has sucked for 5 years at drafting.
Me: His drafts weren't really bad when you consider he was drafting talent for antiquated system that was poorly run. The talent he drafted was mostly perfect for that system.
You: Fire them all.
Me: Why would you fire them all, if you're trying to figure out the problem?
You: Ireland has sucked for 5 years at drafting.

Its always the same with the Fireland crowd. Always. Its kinda of like arguing with the Tea Party about Obama.

 

if you noticed I was naming players that were drafted by those teams, they performed well enough to earn extensions on their rookie deals before FA. the players you named either got cut because of injuries or age, every team parts ways with players for those reasons. but a lot of teams don't let their good draft picks hit the market. Greg Jennings rookie deal was extended before FA. Same with Nelson. and Barnett. and Cullen Jenkins. and Gronk and Hernandez and Beatty and Osi and Antonio Brown and Lesean McCoy etc etc....we've drafted 26 players from 08-2010 and not one has been good enough to earn an extension. only guys who got one were Carpenter and Wake and neither of them were drafted. Smith, Hartline, Long, and Clemons, none of them played well enough, so we really don't care if they all walk. neither did Henne or Langford or Vontae or Jerry or Merling or Odrick or Misi.

why would we be cutting or restructuring anybody? we have a ton of cap space because we're letting 7 starters and even more key players like Moore and Garner all hit the market at the same time.