Dolphins and Hartline are talking contract

A healthy Shipley?? Maybe not.

 

Based on what, other than a desire to denigrate Hartline?

 

It was more props to Shipley who looked promising before the knee.

I know what Hartline is. He is a former Buckeye and I'm a homer, but Brian Hartline is a solid 2 at best.

 

No maybes about it. He's better than him.

We better extend this guy.

 

Not sure what the big difference in talent is....the only difference is a healthy knee.

 

I see the difference in talent.

 

Well, if corners were allowed to tackle him while running routes, those number of 20+ yard catches would drop to about zero b/c he's not good at eluding defenders, which is why he rarely eludes them after the catch. "Very good" at eluding defenders is Hakeem Nicks, and a "Hakeem Nicks" Hartline is not. If he weren't below average at eluding defenders he'd have more than 3 TDs in 3 years b/c it's not like he's never had the ball in his hands with an opportunity to make something of it.

Did you watch the catch/play Jacoby Jones made in the Super Bowl for a TD? He did that all on his own whereas Hartline wouldn't have sniffed the EZ. Football is a sport; athletic ability means something, so I don't understand any type of mindset that downplays athleticism & natural ability in relation to TD production. With all things being equal, the greater the athleticism & natural talent the better the player's chance of scoring; not sure why that's being debated. Case in point: Josh Cribbs; he's not even a legitimate receiver and has had crap at QB yet his receptions result in 1 TD every 15 catches, whereas Hartline's is 1 per 30.

Look at the NFL's top 50 scorers at each position and tell me there's not an overwhelming theme. How did Barry Sanders rack up 109 TDs? Scheme, happenstance, or perfect blocking?..... or b/c he could make plays with the ball in his hands?

 

Didn't you hear? Predictive correlations tell us that any person I talk to will not win the lottery. Therefore, no one, anywhere, has ever won the lottery.

 

lol this might be the most inaccurate statement I've ever read on any dolphins forum.

 

When did being better than a guy with a screwed up knee suddenly make you starting caliber. I mean damn I'd probably start over Shipley if there was a game tomorrow.

 

^^no you wouldn't.

 

My point is just that with a fk'd knee, of course some crappy players are better than you. Its not an accomplishment.

 

I didn't say it did. Just pointing out the foolishness of people's opinions regarding Hartline.

FWIW, what Hartline does makes you a starting caliber WR.

 

pretty sure that was his point. People exagerate how bad they think hartline is.

 

I don't think anyone thinks he isn't "starting caliber"... Do they?

 

Yes, some people do not think he is starting caliber. And I can respect that even though I disagree with it. What I can't respect is saying he wouldn't start over someone like Shipley.

 

If you think he is good at eluding defenders with the ball in his hands, then we are talking about and watching two different players named Brian Hartline.

 

I seem to recall him scoring on an end around when he was a rookie, and eluding a couple of defenders in the process. So he has that going for him, which is nice.

 

I strongly disagree with this.

The top 100 TD reception leaders combine for:

• 300 All-Pro/All-Star honors (not including post 1975'ish Pro Bowl appearances which alone totals probably 700+)
• 24 HOF honors
• 20 potential HOFers
• 27 All-Decade Team
• 76 Championships
• 4 SB MVPs
• A dozen+ Team HOF honors in addition to the 24 Canton HOFers
• NFL's #1 and #9 ranked player All-Time

How do you feel the hundred receivers ranked from 501-600 compares to the above list? Any significant drop off?
How about the hundred ranked 1001-1100?
How about 2001-2100?

 

Jeeze, you and shouright and all your correlations. Where do you find this stuff? Or are we just supposed to believe it because you say it is true?

 

Yeah, but but but...you need some correlations in there.

 

Oops. Looks like someone got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

Really? All the arguing I've seen is people arguing over whether or not Hartline is a #1 receiver, and deserving of being paid as a #1 receiver. Most would like to have him back as a #2, and at #2 money.

 

The TD argument is ridiculous. You attempt to show that fluctuation occurs greatly from year to year and assert that this means TD total isn't an indicator of physical talent. For example:

"Joe Blow scored 18 TD's, but then only 3 TD the next season followed by 12, 7, 8, 14...(so on) and so having great physical talent or being a great player has nothing to do with TD totals"


The fact you ignore is that players like Hartline have no fluctuation. No explosions of talent. No career years. Great players can be effected year to year by things like injury, scheme, the players around them. Players like Hartline never have those great years because they simply lack their own talent to do so.

 

I'm probably his biggest detractor and yes he would start over Shipley. They aren't the same type of WR though so it's kind of an odd comparison to begin with. The only thing they really have in common is that they are white.

As for not wanting Hartline as a #3....to me a #3 is your slot guy. I definitely wouldn't want him there. Like I've said...to me he's a guy that you bring in on occasion for specific situations. Like when your #2 needs a quick breather or you have a certain package planned against a defense you feel he can be effective against. Or if you need another player with solid hands on an important third down conversion.

 

And he completely proved you wrong this year by producing. He proved he can be a low end #1, very good #2.

You said people are ignoring the fact that he doesn't score TDs. Well, you're completely ignoring the fact that he still played very well this season and proved he's a very good #2. He didn't luck into his production total.

 

He didn't luck into average to below average production totals? I should think not.

 

I think with better QB play, he can score a nice amount of TDs. He's not the type of player that can score 5+ a season like Shorts can with Henne because he doesn't have that physical ability. With better QB play, though, you can take advantage of his route running, quickness, and smarts in the red zone.

 

You might as well not respond If that's your take on it. You're wrong.

 

You honestly expect us to believe that the #1 target and safety valve for this rookie QB wasn't targeted in the red zone? Hartline couldn't get open in the endzone, that is why he didn't have any TDs. Hartline cannot catch a pass and stay on his feet, that is why he doesn't have any TDs. These are facts. There is not a Hartline hate agenda. He is not a good receiver. He is an ok receiver that lacks the abilities required to score at a rate suitable of #1 or #2 WR in the NFL. He's didn't do it. He's never done it. And for the billionth time, he's not done with different QBs, offenses, targets and positions. At this point, he is the ONLY common denominator in his lack of TD production. There is no argument to be made anymore.

 

You don't get to say I'm wrong and it just be so. He is average to below in every stat they deem important. That is fact.

 

I actually can in this case because you are wrong.

Who's they? And what stats are these?

 

Look at ESPN stats. Look at NFL stats. Look wherever the hell you want, from yards, to first downs to TDs to 20+ catches he is average to below average for #1 WRs. And some of those he's below average for ANY wr. Again, these are facts.

Hartline is nothing more than a competent possession receiver.

 

There actually is. Hartline never played in an offense that spreads the ball around with good QB play. He played with Henne/Marshall early in his career then Moore/Marshall last season. This season, he played with a rookie who struggled. It's easy to see why there is a lack of TDS.

 

Like I said, he's a low end #1 to very good # 2

Seems you're in agreement with me there. Thanks.

 

Are you saying he never caught any passes, hence never had the ball in his hands to make something of it?

 

I can't be saying that, obviously. He caught passes.

 

Then he had opportunities to score. 153 to be exact. 78 opportunities with Brandon Marshall on the field pulling coverage away from him but still only 2 TDs in 2 years.

 

Ugh! You're right!

Scratch every point I made. Sorry.

 

Didn't he drop 2 potential TD passes in the end zone this past season?