MY Top 20 Draft Prospects-2013 NFL Draft

...just because he's at a major program but didn't improve much if any from his previous year and b/c he seems to be an athlete playing football at time (to me at least). I'm not insinuating he isn't playing with a full deck, but it's something I'd be interested in knowing.

 

so pull it and see what happens.

 

Good points, but I put up this video of Moore against the mongo Alabama line to show some downside- he basically got tooled by Fluker and that OL for most of the game. As to individual pays- nice athleticism at :38 followed by a nice spin move and QB hurry. SOme heat on QB at :50. Decent pressure at 1:08. very nice sideline pursuit and tackle of Lacy at 2:30. Nice pass rush 3:15. Nice tackle 4:15. Nice tackle 4:46. Sack 5:00. Nice pursuit tackle 5:25. Nice pursuit 6:02. Nice pursuit tackle 6:35.

All in all, not a terribly inspiring tape, which is why I posted it. 7:08- Fluker just stonewalls him- he shows nice pursuit, but that's not really the issue at hand, which is that he was basically stopped cold when confronted with Fluker and had to try to go around, because he most certainly wasn't going through Fluker. Too much of that in the tapes- what drives me nuts about Ansah is when he just stops his pass rush and looks to bat the pass- that's the cherry on top of the sundae, not the ice cream- an added bonus. JJ Watt gets after it, then goes for the swat. Moore does too much of this as well- stonewalled and then shows good pursuit- but dude, you were stonewalled...

But again, this was Alabama. I like Moore, I don't love him. If he wasn't a solid edge rusher I'd have a bias against him like I do for Ansah. Good pass rusher, good in pursuit. But as a DE- how much better is he than Okafor? Lemonier? As an OLB- he doesn't play at the same speed of a Jordan or Ogletree.

In short, looking at this clip in particular I agree with your assessment of him showing a good motor and decent athletic ability but not much else. But it's one tape against a massive, quality OL, and imo Moore is a solid 4/3 edge rusher- as per defending the run, I have questions.

As to Olivier Vernon- from what I've seen Moore is a much better pass rusher- if Vernon turned out to be what Ireland expected we wouldn't need a pass rushing DE so badly. Vernon certainly is a high motor guy, but imo you can't look at one tape of Moore going against the best OL in college football, maybe one of the best ever, and then equate him to Vernon.

I can get more jacked up watching Sean Porter than Moore- Moore is solid, but is he top 5 or top 10? I don't know, but who is, Mingo? I just watched some film of Alex Okafor- he may be a better value in the 2nd rd, but he's a solid player who looks a bit slow. I think that I'm spoiled and biased after watching the Ogletree tapes today- just grab him at #12 and pick up some DEs and WRs in the next few rounds, my best guess.

 

All that video showed is that Damontre Moore does a really good job when being blocked by air. When being blocked by a human, almost any human, he's just monstrously overrated.

 

yes, agree agree. Heck, many of his sacks & TFLs occurred when he was initially stymied or blocked out of the play; clean up sacks and tackles. I've never seen so many opportunistic sacks & TFLs to be honest. It kind of parallels what I was mentioning about Ansah taking advantage of Wake's pressure (as well as Koyle's play-calling), except Moore isn't in Ansah's league in the pursuit department, nor in Werner or Carradine's for that matter. Plus, Moore didn't face the frequency of double teams that Ansah or the other great ends did from what I recall. He doesn't fit in our defense at all IMO.

 

that's a little dramatic, IMO, Jim. We have one of the best pass rushing ends in the game and finished with 44 sacks. If Odrick takes over Starks' role, that'll increase our pass rush a smidge, not a lot but it will increase it. If we draft Ansah to take over Odrick's role, that'll be another boost in pass rush; again, not a huge boost but a boost nonetheless, but what he will do is get us those clean-up sacks. Even if it's just 3 more sacks, that puts us in the top 5.

IMO you seem to be looking at this from how you think it should be rather than what Koyle needs and is looking for. We're not Peyton Manning's Colts with Freeney & Mathis.
I'm not sure I'd call Odrick's position "defensive end" to be honest. Perhaps that's the problem- that Jared's position title of DE alters our perception, b/c in reality Coyle lines him up everywhere, and Odrick provides us a good deal of versatility/flexibility b/c of it. If Odrick moves inside to replace Starks, then you gotta find someone who can do much of what Odrick currently does but perhaps offer a bit better pass rush ability. That's Ansah, and IMO there isn't a close second. After that, what our pass rush needs is to either re-sign Sean Smith or corner of equal or better ability who can allow Reshad and our linebackers to continue brining extra pressure, and perhaps draft a FS with great coverage skills to compliment Reshad and allow him to expand his freelance role.

 

Well, I'm not alone in thinking that we could really use a pass rusher opposite Wake. As usual you mention Ansah- he has his qualities for sure, and I've been lauding his lateral pursuit and pass deflecting qualities on here longer than anyone else- but that doesn't change the fact that he's a piss poor pass rusher. Seriously, the guy is borderline incompetent facing OTs and trying to generate a pass rush. He'll stop pursuit after getting stonewalled (one of Damontre Moore's bad habits) and just stand there, trying to time out a jump to deflect a pass. I mean, just awful. He has to get tremendously better as a straight up pass rusher, not a guy that is going to quickly give up and then try to make something happen when a play breaks down- imo Ansah would be a liability against pocket passers and if you want a clean up guy against scrambling QBs?- I'll take Alec Ogletree.

We'll never get anywhere with this issue- I would draft Corey Lemonier or Menelik Watson, over Ansah, I'm just not a fan. As to Damontre Moore, I understand the criticism and share in some of it- he gets stonewalled at the LOS and is reduced to breaking off in pursuit (sound familiar?) far too often, questiopnable run defense. But he is a good edge rusher, much better than Ansah. But Moore doesn't "wow" me- as I mentioned somewhere else, I have to ask myself how much better he is than Okafor- who I like but he's a tad slow- and Lemonier. When all is said and done, Lemonier might be the value play at DE, I'm looking at Jordan mainly as an OLB now. Then I'd look at Taylor/Goodman/ Washinton later in the draft. I don;t really see a star in Moore, and I see a 2nd round project player in Ansah who needs a phenomenal amount of work and improvement in terms of his basic pass rushing skills.

 

Exactly. If you're taking that kind of player, give me the 275 lbs monster that ran a 10.9 in the 100 meters.

 

Again, with all due respect, you seem to be looking at our defensive front from your perspective, how you yourself would do it, when in reality it's Coyle's. If you think any of these guys you keep listing can perform Odrick's role should Jared move to Starks' spot then I don't know what to tell you. A traditional 7 technique end most likely will not be starting opposite Wake, as scheme versatility/flexibility trumps it. If you want a situational pass rusher for the times we need a guy opposite Wake rushing from 7 or 9 technique, then draft one we can groom behind Wake, but that has nothing to do with Odrick's position. If Starks walks and Odrick is moved inside, we've got to replace Odrick's position. That's not Damontre Moore; it's not Lemonier; and it's not any of the other guys you've been mentioning. It's Ansah, and unless you can come up with a better option who can play all across the defensive line and hold his own like Ansah can, it'll remain Ansah. The only other option is to keep Odrick in his role, draft a stud like Shariff Floyd to replace Starks (and to save us the cap space), and then draft a situational pass rusher later on. Personally, I'd rather move Odrick inside, draft Ansah, and then a situational rusher later.

 

To the best of my recollection Coyle has repeatedly stated that he plans to keep Odrick at DE. And even if he were to move inside to DT I don't want a DE who is a worse pass rusher than Odrick, and that's what Ansah is. It's that simple- make Ansah a good pass rusher and you have quite a player on your hands. He can cover some ground for sure and bat down some passes, but what he is also is a bad- make that strikingly bad- pass rushing DE.

There's no need to go in circles about this, I understand that he's one of your favorites, I have mine, too. But I'm not spending a 1st or even a 2nd round pick on a 4/3 DE who can't effectively engage OTs and generate sacks in a conventional manner. Ansah is quite the player on broken plays, but as you see that - correctly- as a problem with Damontre Moore, Ansah has that in spades. Chasing down a scrambling QB is great, but a repertoire of a bull rush and stopping to time an attempt to bat down a pass doesn't cut it for me, point blank. Go ahead and get an hour glass out now for when Ansah rushes Tom Brady, good luck with that one- ain't happening, he'll get stonewalled all day. He's a talent, but far from a complete player and you're getting ahead of yourself imo if you're convinced that he'll put all the pieces together.

As to Ansah being the only logical replacement to Odrick in your scenario- nah. Same thing with Damontre Moore, same thing with Cordarelle Patterson- who could you get at a later pick who is a comparable talent? As to Ansah, I'd look at Devin Taylor, Mallicah Goodman and Cornelious Washington- and they're all better pass rushers than Ansah.

 

Cmon Jim, this isn't YOUR team (not meaning that in a rude way). I don't understand this "I don't want this", "I won't do that" mentality. It's Ireland's team, and it's Coyle's defense. They don't care what you or any of us want. If Odrick has to move inside to replace Starks, they're gonna find someone to replace Odrick's role, not change the entire defensive scheme, one which seems to be working.

I simply don't understand why you think Damontre Moore, Goodman, Taylor, or Washington could perform Odrick's role. Moore is a weakside end. He'd get demolished in Odrick's role. Line him up inside over the center on a play when you're mixing things up to give a different look and tell me how that turns out. Then put Moore at 5 tech over the tackle and ask him to hold his ground and take on the gaps to both sides. Gimme a break man.

 

All this discussion is doing is reminding me how annoyed I am at our obtuse GM and Coyle now drinking the koolaid by justifying a sluggish guy who Should w a DT being better at DE. Horse-****.

I have been supporting Ansah (not at 12) because, like Todd says, I'm accounting for what type of player this front office would be willing to take.

The truth is, I wish we had a GM and DC who would take a guy like Lemonier and play him as our nickel end on pass downs. Or Jarvis Jones as an OLB who moves to DE on rush downs.

 

Do we have to keep going over this? Ansah is a sub standard pass rushing DE imo, I'm just not all that interested- bottom line. Indications are that Odrick isn't going anywhere, and if he does go to DT I still wouldn't want to spend a high pick on Ansah. If you put in Ansah for Odrick you are moving out a very good run defending DE who is a marginal pass rusher with a very good run defending DE- maybe not as good as Odrick- who is easily a worse pass rusher. I have no interest in making that switch, and certainly not at the cost of a high draft pick. You want a player to patrol the flats for scrambling QB's? I'll take Sean Porter, Ogletree at OLB or Damontre Moore at DE and all are significantly better pass rushers than Ansah.

And as to Moore- his role would be pass rushing DE and being groomed for Wake's role. Platoon him in as per Seattle- Red Bryant and Bruce Irvin. I'd rather spend a 4th or 5th on Taylor, Goodman or Washington or a 2nd or 3rd on Lemonier than spend a 1st or 2nd rd pick on Ansah, he just doesn't do it for me. Yes, Moore is a weak side end, but for strong side I'd almost prefer Taylor, Goodman or Washington to Ansah, because they have a clue as to pass rushing, clearly better at it than Ansah. Those three DEs remind me a bit of Lorenzo Bromell, I'd like to get one of them.

 

Zeke Ansah may be a sub standard pass rushing DE but so is Damontre Moore. At least Ansah brings 275 lbs, a lot of strength, and 10.9 in the 100 meters type ability to the table. I'm not saying I'd actually take Ansah at 12 because I wouldn't...but I'll take him over Damontre Moore for sure.

 

But you think that Ansah is good enough for the Browns to draft him at #6...

Moore isn't all that, but he is a solid pass rusher and weak side DE. To call him a substandard pass rusher is exaggeration imo. I think that you're right about some of his weaknesses, but you're overdoing it. He's averaging 9 sacks or so a year for the last three years and can definitely get to the QB and bend the arc, as compared to Ansah who often looks incompetent until a play breaks down and he can go into chase mode outside the pocket.

In all fairness Moore gets stonewalled as well and goes into chase mode too often imo, but Ansah is the king of that, because he can basically do one of three things on passing plays:

a. try to bull rush, usually without success

b. stick a paw up and try to bat down a pass, which he does very well

c. go into chase mode on busted plays, which he does very well.

He's interesting for a team that doesn't need a pass rushing DE and imo a 2nd rd guy, maybe low 1st for a team that feels like taking a chance. I'd rather have Odrick at DE, bottom line, so why waste the pick? And if Odrick did get moved to DT and you put Ansah in there- yay, you just downgraded your pass rush from that position. This is no Justin Tuck, not even close- and Tuck was what, a 2nd rd pick?

 

so then what do we do with Wake who often lines up on the left? Do we bench him? Don't see that happening. There are things that Odrick (or a bigger, stout DE like Ansah) can offer in base defense, especially with scheme versatility, that a pass rush end can not, so there's some give and take there.

Baltimore, San Fran, Seattle, and Denver all have 3 big guys on their Dline. There might be a lesser pass rush in base D but it does offer better scheme flexibility, improvement vs the run, and a greater chance of minimizing 3rd & short IMO. A guy like Ansah can play either 5, 7, or 9 technique at end which allows us scheme flexibility, different looks, a variety of ways to bring pressure, blitz, etc.

 

No one said anything about replacing Wake, you lost me there. And if you're arguing for a great run stuffing 4/3 DE as opposed to a pass rusher- WE ALREADY HAVE ONE. Ansah is great in sideline pursuit, etc, etc- I understand. He's just not what I want as a 4/3 DE, and I certainly don't want to spend a #12 pick on him.

You're a big fan of Ansah, I get it- I'm not. I'd rather discuss other football draft topics with you, I'm just tired of the whole Ansah thing. You think that his lack of any traditional pass rush ability ie beating OTs to the QB, bending the arc, etc. is more than compensated by his strengths in other areas, I do not. Let's just leave it at that, there's no sense in going back and forth on this.

 

but what if Starks leaves?
We could conceivably be sitting at 12 looking to do one of two things based on the best player on the board:
1. take a defensive tackle to replace Starks, hence keeping Odrick in his current role. (either Shariff Floyd or Sheldon Richardson is that guy IMO)
2. take a scheme flexible DE to replace Odrick and move Odrick inside.
IMO, whomever represents the best value on the board could easily determine which route we go. Personally, I put Ansah ahead of Floyd & Richardson, so I'd kick Odrick inside. If Ansah is gone and Richardson or Floyd represent the best value in this scenario, then Odrick stays where he's at the rookie replaces Starks. We basically do what Seattle & Denver do defensively, only Wake being better on the left makes us flip flop it.

BTW, we don't ALREADY HAVE ONE great run stuffing 4/3 DE if Odrick happens to replace Starks. We'd be left with no run-stuffing, hybrid type end.

 

Well, unless Odrick is moved to DT, which Coyle said he doesn't see happening, WE ALREADY HAVE ONE. Even if we did I wouldn't want to spend a high draft pick on a run stuffing 4/3 DE who is a substandard pass rusher.

 

We should just agree to disagree if that's all you see Ansah as or if that's all you view Odrick's role as, which Ansah would be replacing. It's an oversight on your part IMO.

Substandard-pass-rushing, run-stuffing DE, is that really how you summarize Ansah?..... b/c I'd considering that significantly inaccurate. What do you expect from a hybrid type run-stuffing end, a 12+ sack guy? Cmon. Your context is wrong WADR. As far as hybrid-type, run-stuffing DEs go, Ansah offers much better than average pass rush ability, much better athleticism, much better speed, and much better athleticism/playmaking ability, which is why he is worth the #12 pick, because he offers a lot more than just an average run of the mill run-stuffing DE.

It seems like you believe pass-rushing beasts who double as a run stuffers like Watt grow on trees. Name me the league's 3-4 ends/hybrid 4-3 ends who offer greater pass rush/chaos-creating ability than what Ansah will be capable of as he develops his technique. To me it seems like you're trying to judge the position as if it's a tradition 7 technique end, which doesn't make sense IMO. Ansah might not be an elite pass rusher but he offers a rare skill set for the type of role he'd play (provided Coyle doesn't have plans to change it). Find me another guy in the draft who can play more positions along the dline and do so at a higher overall level; find me the draft's defensive linemen who offer as much scheme flexibility as Ansah.

 

Why don't we just make everyone happy and take Tank?

Most complete pro DE prospect in the draft. And already looks like a pro when you watch him.

 

To clarify, if Coyle changes the role of the end position opposite Wake to where pass rush ability becomes numero uno above all else then I'll gladly remove Ansah from my personal priority list and turn to Carradine as the main target. The only problem is Ireland & Co likely won't tip that hand in advance.

If we're to use a hybrid pass-rushing linebacker (like many of us want) then IMO it only makes sense to pair him with a more stout end just as you would in a 3-4 with a rush linebacker. The only difference with Ansah is he's not a run of the mill 3-4 end. He can play 1-gap or 2-gap; he can also line up at 7 & 9 technique; he can hold his own fairly well inside; he can be a plus interior pass rusher in nickel; and then there's the incredible natural talent level. Calling Ansah just a run-stuffing end is like calling Jared Allen just a nickel pass rusher.

 

Phinsational.

You are just stupid.


Love Fin-O

 

Im really, really learning to love the idea of Miami grabbing a top tier pass rusher @ #12

 

Whom do you feel is worth the twelfth pick?

I don't see a slam dunk in sight at 12 at WR or DE.

I think Johnthan Banks is he best value you'll see there, unless a top ten guy falls. Which is possible, if there is a run on unworthy QBs in the top ten.

 

Is one available that fits what they want at the position? Is there a Carlos Dunlap?

 

Dunlap ended up becoming better than I thought he would. I underestimated him.

 

I'm still underestimating him. I kind of give him as much credit as Trent Cole.

Good but never getting the respect a star or stud gets.

 

Well, for starters Moore, Jordan and Buchanan are OLB candidates imo, that's some versatility. If I wanted a DE who could bump inside to DT I would choose Datone Jones over Ansah, easily. And if I wanted to draft a foreign player based on potential I'd draft Menelik Watson over Ansah, easily.

I don't see Ansah coming into the NFL as a dominating run defender- let's not call him a run stuffer extraordinaire just yet. He'll be a lousy pass rusher who gets some garbage sacks, a good lateral pursuit guy and he'll bat down some passes. He'll wow you as he tracks down some QB's laterally and stupefy you as he repeatedly shows his incompetence as a pass rusher and gets stuffed by NFL OTS again and again and again. Good luck with that, he's just not my cup of tea.

Please- sing his merits to someone else. This whole Ansah thing is beyond stale to me, so many other players I'd rather discuss. BTW here's an Ansah interview that I just came across, enjoy:

http://www.draftcountdown.com/interviews/Ezekiel-Ansah/Ezekiel-Ansah.php

 

Same here.

Sometimes those really big guys look like they're taking plays off. Haloti Ngata looked the same way. Ngata in particular would've gone MUCH higher if he hadn't looked like that so often in college.

 

On that note...I actually do think there could be a Carlos Dunlap in this Draft...and I don't think you have to necessarily use a really high pick to get him. Much like Dunlap, I haven't always been a fan of this guy and at one point I thought him to be overrated (back when he was considered a high 1st round pick).

But at the East-West Shrine practices and game...I fell for the player he could become.

[video=youtube;TSr5VelnWgU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSr5VelnWgU[/video]

 

I've liked Devin Taylor back to 2011. I would watch SC to try and get a look at Ingram whom so many were talking about, but Clowney first of all jumped off the screen as impressive, and secondly I found myself liking what I saw from Taylor too.
He is rising already according to NFLDraftScout.com. One month ago he was listed as a 6-7 rounder and now he is a 3-4 rounder. If Miami wants him, they better not wait later than the latter of the two 3rd rounders. It seems to me that NFLDS ends up ranking the players as closely as they actually get drafted better than any of the other online draft sites. So, if they say he is a late 3rd/early 4th type, I'd tend to believe it.

 

That used to be the case when Chad Reuter was running it. I've seen a marked change since Dane Brugler took over. I don't know if he's quite as plugged in, as he's still young in his career.

 

Well first, let me preempt this by saying if Millner falls I'd absolutely screen directly up the podium and nab him. I think he's the clear cut CB in this class, but I'm not well versed in CB scouting. I just see a lot more shut down ability, the type we were trying to get out of Sean Smith, when I watch Millner versus when I look at the youtube stuff of the Mississippi State CB.

You know the positional breakdowns FAR better than I do (with regards to Miami's needs at the position when taken in the context of the overall defensive scheme) but I have this strange feeling that someone will fall to Miami, and they will fall in love, whether it be Bingo or Moore. I spent the weekend watching some of the pass rushers and I sincerely like a few of them. I'm ignoring value @ #12, so I know my logic and thought process might be inherently flawed from your point of view. I'm looking at pure 4-3 DEs.

I also think Patterson is a legitimate talent worth #12 overall but I'm really liking a lot of other receivers, so much so that I'm comfortable with them attacking the WR corps in the 2nd round. Maybe a Williams (Marshall) falls to #42?

This is all operating under the automatic assumption of Miami signing a FA WR like Jennings or Bowe.

 

If they do their homework on Dwayne Bowe's character and find there's nothing to these rumors of him being a problem child, and lazy...then I wouldn't mind him. But I think they should probably just go with Jennings.

As for defensive ends I really truly wholeheartedly believe:

A) Jeff Ireland will tend AWAY from guys that will look to play rotationally at 12, preferring starters
B) They will want a bigger, stronger player for the starting end spot opposite Wake
C) They will tend away from making a pick that shelves Koa Misi upon arrival

Damontre Moore and Barkevious Mingo do not fit, by those assumptions. That's why I don't see that happening. Same with Dion Jordan. The guy that *I* think they'll actually think twice about particularly with respect to assumption C, is Jarvis Jones. But that could also come down to medical issues.

I think this first pick is going to be a corner or receiver with an outside shot of it being someone like a Lane Johnson to replace Jake Long. I know the latter SOUNDS bad since they're looking to make a splash, but keep in mind their free agent activities could be splashy enough that people care a lot less about them taking a "big fat guy".

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly with regards to Lane Johnson and the logic behind the pick. My issue is do we move Martin back to RT? He seemed more comfortable with LT, but that may just be my eyes deceiving me. I'd rather, for the value, stick Martin at LT and draft one of the pure RTs in this draft, which I actually see 2 or 3 of them.

Does Werner, as unlikely as he is to fall, fit the category you're looking at with those 3 rules? Because my untrained eyes tell me he fits all the criteria you just laid out.

 

I don't see a defensive end worth taking at twelve. I'd take Carradine there if he was healthy as he's easily the best and most complete end in this class.

 

Jonathan Martin didn't look very comfortable at right OR left tackle. He looked a little bit more comfortable at left tackle but does that really matter all that much? Is he talented enough to be your left tackle or not? To use Madden terms, I don't care if he's a 78 at right tackle and an 80 at left tackle, I'm keeping him at right tackle because I want a 90 at left tackle not an 80.

It's all in how you construct the question. If you construct the question such that:

Jonathan Martin is either:
A) Your starting left tackle, or
B) Your starting right tackle...

...then you're going to get one answer or the other. But the way that question is constructed, you're missing a third option:

C) Not a starter in your offense.

With that third option as a possibility then you get to actually evaluate whether he's GOOD ENOUGH to play one position or the other, not just which one's better at.