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Yes I'd like to see it. I'm sure we all would. Like you said you have experience actually IN the business. The rest of us are just fans.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that yours or anyone else's thoughts are invalid or inferior. If that is how I came off, I apologize. I was just letting it be known that my eye is somewhat trained to see different things than what most do. I actually enjoy the conversations that go on here as most of you bri g an interesting perspective and take on things.

Randy Savage, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, Rick Rude, Curt Hennig, Ted Dibiase, Jake Roberts, Jushin Liger, Great Muta, Big Show/Giant, Konnan, Sting, Flair, Kurt Angle, The Rock, Mitsuharu Misawa, Ricky Steamboat, Chris Jericho and Undertaker would be my top 20 (okay 22) performers of the past 30 years or so. The list above is in no particular order, mind you. I would have to put some thought into the actual order I would place them, although I know my number one, two and three already.

 

10. Ted Dibiase - Quite possibly the greatest pairing of gimmick and personality in the history of pro wrestling. The second generational star had a ton of regional success as a babyface before becoming Vince McMahon's vision of himself as a wrestler. The laugh, the suit and of course, the refined wrestling ability worked perfectly. So much so that to this day, he can pop a crowd simply by appearing on screen. He was never technically the heavyweight champion but that was simply because of politics as he was slated to win the strap at Wrestlemania IV before a last minute change. Great combination of talent in the ring, on the mic and a perfect look. One of the most underrated wrestlers of all time (along with Rick Rude and Curt Hennig).

9. The Undertaker - the most iconic big man in WWE history and arguably of all time. Others with say Andre and that may be true for notoriety. But Andre doesn't measure up to Undertaker overall. What makes UT unique is that he was never billed or did he wrestle, as a big man. He wrestled a normal style and evolved his move set throughout his career, as well as his gimmick. The dead man also may have invented more types of matches than anyone else in the past 50 years or so. Tombstone, Last Ride, Gogoplata as well as signature spots like Old School and the top rope suicide dive always pop the crowd. The multi-time world and tag champ is also the locker room leader and has something that no other wrestler will ever have...The Streak. Which happens to be on the most important show of the year, every year. His part time schedule over the past few years has made him somewhat of a forgotten man, but he is also older and shouldn't be going as much as previous years.

8. The Rock - Not sure what needs to be said. Most likely the most popular cross over wrestler ever. Multi-time everything champ. Every time he touches the mic, the crowd is eating out of his hand, the crowd goes ape**** when his music hits and can work flawlessly as a heel or face. His ring work has always been solid to great and has been involved in some terrific contests. I don't know that he has the one defining moment in the ring however and recent verbal alterations with Cena and Punk have shown just how stale his routine has become and how much he relies on catchphrases as opposed to moving or telling a story. Nonetheless, still one of the all time greats.

7. Ric Flair - Considered by many to be the greatest of all time. In an era where Hulk Hogan DOMINATED the wrestling scene on style, Ric was the substance. His stamina is unparalleled by almost anyone in the history of the sport. His trademark "Wooo," might be the most famous wrestling sound bite ever. The 16 time World Champion has had legendary matches with Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Sting and just about everyone else. Known as the dirtiest player in the game, Ric spent the majority of his career as a heel who found ways to win by hook, or by crook. A large portion of his gimmick though, required him to hold the belt. Without it, it simply didn't work. Also, his story lines and mic work was very formulaic, as was the template he followed in the ring. That doesn't mean he didn't do those things great. He just never ventured far out of his comfort zone. I don't think I blame him considering how far the vanilla road carried him. Required viewing for any young wrestler who wants to know how to head up a heel faction. No one has done it better.

6. Bret Hart - If not for an errant kick by an over muscled goof tard named Goldberg, Bret Hart may have ended up higher on this list. As it is, his tenure with WCW is mostly forgettable and is almost exclusivlely remembered for Montreal in 1997. Prior to that though, Bret Hart was one of the most influential and industry changing wrestlers ever. Unlike Flair, Hart could work multiple styles, including excelling in the tag team ranks. His work was believable and he is well decorated as a multi title champion. He was the flagship wrestler for WWE after Hogan was jettisoned and the company rode that workhorse until he dropped. Eventually and reluctantly, Bret expanded his range by becoming one of the hottest heels in WWE history. Even though he was very uneasy with it, his natural talent didn't allow him to fail. Famously, he used the same five moves to finish a ton his matches (five moves of doom) and eventually found ways to change the order creatively to spite his critics.

Top 5 soon.

 

5. Chris Jericho - Probably controversial to be ahead of some other names, but his natural wrestling ability, and his willingness to wrestle every single style around the world, combined with the amount of success that companies were forced to give him based on how he got himself over, I think has warranted this spot. He is also a star outside of the ring as he tours the world with his band, acts, and hosts shows. He has re-invented himself many times over, each time more successful than the last and has been able to adapt to newer ways fans view and relate to wrestlers. Very much a conduit from the old school to the new with regards to the business. Lucha Libretto, Puroresu, hardcore, cruiserweight, heavyweight, catch as catch can, Jericho succeeds at all.

4. Steve Austin - had his career been slightly longer, he may have cracked the top 3, but he is still one of the greatest to ever lace them up. Best know. For his anti-hero gimmick, "Stone Cold," he helped save the WWE from folding, and turning it into the global juggernaut it is today. I give Austin at least 50% credit for the resurrection of WWE and the fall of WCW. Prior to becoming Stone Cold however, he was a successful, hard working mid-carder in WCW his was destined for bigger things. Injuries marred his career throughout and ultimately forced him to change from a technical maestro into a hard hitting brawler and ultimately into retirement. His interviews were red hot, his matches were insanely intense and he became a sensation outside of the ring with perhaps the most talked about segments ever on RAW (gun incident, Tyson, beer truck, stunning Vince McMahon, etc.) multi-time champion, successful multiple gimmicks, over. Re than any superstar in WWE history and oh yeah, multiple title reigns across the board. The very definition of carrying the company on his back.

3. Randy Savage - An über face and über heel, Randy was one of the first to ascend from a high flyer, to a world champion. Hs intensity, ring psychology and willingness to seemingly go anywhere in a match is remarkable. From flying around with Steamboat, to knocking heads with heavyweights like Undertaker, Yokozuna, and Nash, he could work with anyone and get a good match out of them. Watch his matches and interviews and notice the amount of concentration and intensity he puts into each move and word. And having met the guy personally, I can tell you that those darts for eyes and gravely insanely linear voice that gaveled from manic to lowly depressive was a part of him, not just a gimmick. He helped make more stars than just about anyone else and gave tips of the cap to people in the crowd who paid attention to his outfits, glasses and interviews for clues. Hogan was the bigger star, but Savage was more influential, having inspired many wrestlers in today's business (including CM Punk). An original in a business full of retreads and copycats.

2. Kurt Angle - Simply put, the best athlete to ever compete in the ring. His record speaks for itself. The man may have more five star matches in a 10 year period than anyone else ever. Hs ability to adapt to whatever role is needed in the ring (face heel, peril, strongman, cruiser) is uncanny and from a performance standpoint, highly impressive. He is a blend of all the good things from every style as well as his contributions on the mic. He can be a comic genius, a insanely intense competitor, or even a pandering face. He brings a credibility to pro wrestling that didn't exist before him, and helped paved the way for other successful amateur wrestlers like Brock Lesnar, Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas to come up. He has worked with everyone and never has to be carried in the ring. Simply put, he is someone you build your company around.

1. Shawn Michaels - The best ever. Of all time. Heel or face. High flying or brawling. Smiling or crotch chopping...no one has done it better. Any style of wrestling Shawn has done and excelled at. His psychology in the ring can't be touched and his storytelling on the mic is unreal. Responsible for a number of innovative matches and firsts, Michaels will be studied for generations of wrestlers to come. Ladder matches, Hell in a Cell, Elimination Chamber, winning the RR from the number one spot. And that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. I think, more than anything I am impressed with his constant jaw dropping matches at Wrestlemanias. Matches against Undertaker, Austin, HHH/Benoit, Hart, Flair and of course, Kurt Angle can't even be described. They have to be seen to be believed. The man evokes more emotion out of his matches than anyone ever in the history of the business. Hell, even in his many roles as a special guest referee have been business altering. I could go on and on, but will end by simply saying that Shawn Michaels is the greatest Professional Wrestler of all-time. He could survive in any era and would thrive.

 

Just because I'm a fan. What about foley?

 

Oh no you didn't at all. No need to apologize. Like you said in your first paragraph you have a different perspective on things then we do.

 

Samphin regarding your list, it's pretty solid and can't really argue/debate too much about it. DiBiase was probably a surprise to me being in the top 10 but the guy was so underrated and his gimmick was perfect. Obviously I'd have Flair up higher on the list probably at #2 or 3.

For your top 22 though I don't really get Big Show and/or Konnan in it. I get Big Show is a pretty good big man but we're talking about the greatest of all time and I can't see how he would crack that as his matches for the most part are average at best and his promos are usually eh. Konnan, unless you're talking about his AAA days, I don't get either he never really did much for me in WCW.

I'd definitely put Rey Mysterio in there and possibly Mick Foley, Owen Hart and the British Bulldog. Trish Stratus could go in there too possibly.

What were you basing this on? The total package of skills? I mean Jake The Snake he a great look, gimmick and could cut a promo but his matches were usually blah. I'm actually surprised you didn't include Scott Hall but again this is a top 20(22) of all time so guys need to get cut.

By the way my top 20 would probably be Kane, Zack Ryder, Kane, Kane, Kane, Kane, Del Rio, Kane, Kane, Cena, Kane, Kane, Marella, Kane, Kane, Kharma, Kane, Kane, Randy Orton, Kane.

 

I'd try to slip Foley into a top 20 as well. While Stone Cold was the centerpiece of WWE's resurgence in the late 90s Foley was also an important piece. He put on some epic matches with guys like Undertaker and Rock.

 

"wouldn't put him in the top 1,000 greatest wrestlers". -Bret Hart on HHH

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/267...never-seen-him-contribute-an-idea-in-my-lifeq

Seems bitter. My top 5 personally for me, in no order is HBK, Kurt Angle, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Undertaker, Eddie Guerrero. yeah in that order

 

Yeah Foley was definitely an important piece of the Attitude Era. He helped resurrect The Undertaker's career and he made Triple H into a main event superstar. He'd probably be in my top 20.

 

If I were making a list of my personal favorite performers, Foley would be right up there. Technically he wasn't great,but his promo work and willingness to do anything set him apart from everyone else. He never truly carried a company in any capacity so I can't place him amongst the ones I listed above, but he created two very memorable characters (Dude Love I don't consider) and has transcended the sport to the point where his regular name is almost as iconic as anything he created. Personally speaking, he might have been the most influential wrestler for me as a teenager breaking into the business than anyone else. Benoit, Pillman and Foley were the guys I was just enthralled with. His mind, much like Raven's is so unique and so different that you wonder what wrestling would be had either of them been in charge of the entire show. Obviously he has one of the most memorable spots ever with Undertaker, and his tolerance for pain is unmatched. Definitely a legend. Probably somewhere in the top 30 to ever lace up.

 

Rey Misterio is never known in the U.S. without Konnan. Same goes for Psychosis, Juventud, Ultimo Dragon and any other Lucia you can think of. Konnan's influence on the American wrestling scene is way bigger than people know. Plus, before age and health problems (and Hall and Nash) robbed him of his talent, he could go with the best of them. The dude has had a huge impact on what we watch today, without ever really getting the credit.

Show almost cracked my top ten to be honest. He is probably the most athletic big man ever. The guy can do moonsaults for crying out loud. He can work with anyone and usually keep up. If anything, he should probably be booked to be more dominant than he has been in his career. The. Way he works with others to help them get over and look like a million bucks is impressive. Plus, he has a slew of titles to his credit and has now been a major player in this industry for 15+ years. Andre the Giant gets all the press, but Big Sow is light years better, in every aspect. Most of you know that I had a hand in training The Great Khali for wrestling (shut up). What most don't know is that Khali and Show suffer from the same disease. The difference though is that Show was able to have the required surgeries, whereas Khali was not afforded the opportunity, hence his limited athletic abilities. But we used to sit and watch Show matches and Khali would just shake his head in amazement at what Show could do. Ad frankly, so would I.

Roberts matches looked boring from the outside on occasion, but they had a crazy amount of psychology to them. So much so that I still find nuances in his matches upon multiple viewings. The dude almost pt too much thought into them. I tend to lump Dibiase, Hennig, Roberts and Rude in the same category as guys who probably should have been given more than they got. Raven is there for me too. But with the all virtually being so close, I went with the one who had the longest standing impact of the group in Dibiase.

Owen and Bulldog were great technical wrestlers and had good, long careers, but I don't know if I can put them in front of anyone on the list, and others that I left off (Foley, Arn, Simmons, etc.) and this will sound sexist, but no women will ever be on the list. Stratus is by far the best to have ever done it, although I think she may be the second or third best diva ever (sounds odd, I know) but women's wrestling can't exist here without the guys. She was a draw though, extremely hard to do in this era.

Scott Hall was a fantastic wrestler but he is in the Owen Hart/Bulldog/Rude area where the talent probably warranted the more, but they ended up being upper mid carders almost exclusively. He was very very good, but I don't think he was great. If tha makes sense. And I am a huge Scott Hall fan.

 

Again, I pretty much kept to the past 30 years or so. Prior to that, I don't know if I can accurately list the old schoolers. Obviously guys like Bruno Sammartino, Gorgeous George, Harley Race, Billy Graham and others had huge influences (including Buddy Rogers where Flair stole his ENTIRE gimmick), and aced the way for today's guys. But I honestly think that today's wrestlers are simply better. Better athletes, performers, entertainers, etc. so I suppose with the exception of maybe a few, that this list is for the history of the sport.

 

Anyone care to take a stab at a top 5-10 list of bet wrestlers to never hold the world title? World title of course means WWE, WHC, WCW or old NWA.

 

Official TNA/WWE Wrestling Thread

1.Ricky Steamboat
2.Hacksaw Jim Duggan
3.Tito Santana
4.George the animal Steele
5.Adrian Adonis


Honorable mention to Chyna in light of her last porn gangbang and glorious fall from grace.

 

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#stillrealdamnit

 

I knew it was coming.

 

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It makes me so happy.

 

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Piper


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Benoit, Guerrero, Rude, Roberts and Big Show never truly carried a company either. Heck none of them outside of Big Show ever truly had a long run at the main event level.

Samphin, how are you grading this? Are you looking at everything, in terms of skills, over all legacy, what?

Does Konnan influence on the US wrestling scene (bringing guys from Mexico over to WCW) really warrant him a spot in the greatest of all time? If that's the case then Vince McMahon should be on this list as well, Heyman too for ECW's influence on the Attitude Era and changing wrestling or even Stu Hart for all the guys he trained. Again I never saw Konnan wrestle outside of WCW but in WCW he never did much for me. If he was a great worker there ok but if it's just because of his influence I don't see how the case could be made. Guys like Mysterio probably would have made it over without Konnan's help sooner or later. They already started to pop up in ECW.

Big Show in the top 10 or 20 I think is kind of crazy too. Sure he was one of the best big men in the business but again in no way is he one of the best ever. His matches aren't anything special (I can't remember what his best or most memorable match is) and neither are his promo skills. Titles nowadays mean nothing too, you can't deduct credit from Flair for winning multiple titles but then credit others. I think you're underrating Andre though, before he got hurt and could barely walk the guy could really move in the ring. Plus he had insane drawing power all of the world, not sure Big Show could sell out a local gym. Most people remember Andre from WM3 on and think he wasn't any good but that's not the case. I mean someone like Bam Bam Bigelow was even a better big man that Show in terms of wrestling skills and he could do moonsaults too. Lesnar too, he just doesn't have the years but could really wrestle and could do shooting star presses.

I agree Roberts' matches had a lot in them and small things most people miss but still for the most part Roberts' matches were never memorable or classic. Great look, mind and talker but as a worker he wasn't anything special.

Regarding Foley, Owen, Bulldog, Hall I'd put them over Rude and maybe Hennig. They had longer careers and were more important in their companies. All of them were equal or just as good of workers as Hennig was. I just think Rude's name surprises me. Great character, good talker but his in ring work was inconsistent.

 

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Did the undertaker just return at the Super Bowl?


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Steamboat was NWA World Champion.

 

Off the top of my head..here is a top 10 of the greatest matches of all-time. (one criteria though...only using modern era and WWF/WWE, and no Tag Matches)

10. Undertaker defeats Shawn Michaels (WM 25)

9. Dolph Ziggler defeats John Cena (TLC 12') Money in the Bank Ladder Match

8. Shawn Michaels defeats Bret Hart (WM 12) Iron Man Match

7. Chris Jericho defeats Shawn Michaels (No Mercy 08') Ladder Match

6. Chris Benoit defeats Shawn Michaels and HHH (WM 20) Triple Threat match

5. Undertaker defeats Mick Foley (King of the Ring 98') Hell in a Cell

4. Stone Cold Steve Austin defeats The Rock (WM 17)

3. Shawn Michaels defeats Undertaker (Bad Blood 97) Hell in a Cell

2. Razor Ramon defeats Shawn Michaels (WM 10) Ladder Match

1. Bret Hart defeats Stone Cold Steve Austin (WM 13)


I remember Dragon vs. Savage at WM 3 was a good match, but the ending turned me off. a Small package wins the IC belt? uh..no.

 

Solid list. Never really thought of my personal favorite top 10 but some of them would probably make my list too. I never saw #9 Ziggler/Cena and I do think Taker/Foley HiTC match is a bit overrated due to the two huge bumps Foley takes as the rest of the match is good but nothing special.

Mine would probably include at least 1 Kurt Angle match, whether it's against Benoit or Michaels. I'd probably have Bret Hart vs. either Mr Perfect, Bulldog or Owen on mine. Definitely Mysterio vs. Guerrero from Havoc '97. Maybe Cena/Punk for MiTB '11. Definitely a Flair/Steamboat match and possibly Savage vs. Steamboat from WM3 but I feel like I've seen that match so much it's lost a lot of its greatness.

 

Solid.

Keep in mind, I've been around for the Attitude Era, making me kind of a young buck. But in no order, my top 7....

1. The Rock vs Triple H (c), Backlash 2000 for the WWF Championship

2. Team Kofi Kingston vs Team Randy Orton, Survivor Series Match, Survivor Series 2009

3. The Rock vs Hulk Hogan, Wrestlemania 18

4. Jeff Hardy vs Edge vs Triple H (c) for the WWE Championship, Armageddon 2009

5. Kane (c) vs The Dudley Boyz (Bubba Ray and Spike) vs Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy vs Christian and Chris Jericho, TLC Match for the Tag Team Championship, October 7th, 2002 WWE Raw

6. Eddie Guerrero (c) vs Rey Mysterio, Jr., Cruiserweight Title vs Mask Match, Halloween Havoc '97

7. Rob Van Dam (c) vs Eddie Guerrero, Backlash 2002

 

fyi if you have netflix, some of these matches are absolutely watchable. Netflix has a lot of these on various dvds. Even sections

 

Bruno Sammartino is headed into the WWE HOF. About time too. You'd have to think if Bruno finally got in guys like Savage will sooner or later since Bruno had a lot of bad blood with McMahon and company. Glad to see they could settle their differences.

 

Lol. I watched the Taker vs. hhh for 20-0, about 20 minutes ago

 

Finale, getting back to how I graded everyone, it is absolutely subjective. I went with overall package for the most part, but if someone was stood out in one area or another, I weighted that in their favor.

As for giving credence to some world titles and not others, the answer is simple. Big Show never booked himself into those titles. That means someone else invoked a confidence in Show due to his talent.

As for top matches. That will have to be thought about for me. I have a ton of personal favorites. Will have to pare it down.

 

Flair wasn't a booker for all of his title wins though and it's not like he wasn't undeserving or willing to put people over (cough Triple H cough), you make it seem like the only reason Flair ever won a title was because he was the booker. Still though titles are pretty meaningless nowadays though, almost everyone gets a run with a title now so you can't really compare title wins in the 80s or 90s to now.

Either way I still think having Big Show that high is pretty crazy.

 

Hey good thing Ryback and Sheamus helped Cena out or we all would have had to watch Cena single handedly beat The Shield. I really thought the WWE was going to book SuperCena in a match with all 3 Shield members at EC.

Anyway RAW was pretty bad last night except the CM Punk/Jericho match. LOVED how the WWE actually spent time showing people how to download a freaking app. Imagine what they'd do if they had 4 hours to kill?

 

The best part is that WWE banked on Orton winning the vote and Jericho destroyed it. At least they came through and gave the fans the match that they asked for instead of falsely claiming Orton won the vote and sending him out.

 

Supposedly WM30 is being held at the Superdome in New Orleans next year. Not sure what to think of that, if true. Seems like it should be held in Texas, New York (although this year's is there) or Los Angeles (typically gets Summerslam).

 

You think? Those polls are usually rigged before hand, not sure why last RAW would be different.

 

Dave Meltzer just confirmed it. The plan was for Orton to lose to Punk and Jericho to beat Barrett. Since the results were followed, they just flipped the wrestler and kept the same results. I guess kudos to WWE for being true to their word...?

 

Interesting. More like kudos to Punk/Jericho for putting on a good match on the fly.

BTW where's your list of personal favorite wrestling matches?

 

The answer to that is simple.

I forgot.

I will put something together.

 

Are you quoting the WWE creative team 20 minutes before RAW is suppose to start?

 

Read a tidbit tonight that I never heard before. Apparently Terry Taylor (Red Rooster, Terrific Terry Taylor, etc.) was slated to be Mr. Perfect but turned it down thus giving the role to Curt Hennig. If true, I find it amazing for many reasons,but most off all, how different would life had been for the both of them? Taylor was a great wrestler but no where near the level of Hennig, and likely wouldn't have been as successful as Hennig was with it. Hennig would have had to have something different upon entering the WWF as well.

Crazy.

For the record, Hennig-Bret Hart at Summerslam for the IC title is one of my favorite matches of all-time. #5 on my list.

 

I'm surprised you haven't heard that one before. Yeah apparently both guys were coming to the WWF at the same time, but what I've heard/read numerous times but who knows, and both the Perfect gimmick and Rooster gimmick were on the table for either one and that Vince randomly said give it to Hennig and Taylor got stuck with the Rooster gimmick. I don't think anything would have been that much different for Taylor, I don't think that gimmick would have made him a star obviously if Hennig got the Rooster gimmick he probably wouldn't have gotten over and would have ran to WCW/NWA as soon as his contract was up.

And I agree with you about Hart/Perfect SS '91 match. That was the first PPV I ever ordered and was completely blown away by that match. SS '91 is and will always be one of my favorite PPVs mainly for that match.