Hartline wants 5-6 million per season

Are you saying you know a guy who is an expert on playmakers?Seriously though, 5 Million per touchdown?

 

If we do resign Hartline, which we should, I wonder what his contract will look like. Will it be straight 5 million per year, or will it be a back loaded contract?

 

I know a lot gets made out of the WRs not producing TDs, but in their defense they weren't thrown to a whole lot in the red zone. Kind of like faulting a RB for not scoring TDs when they don't give him the ball near the end zone.

For example, Davone Bess caught 6 passes in 2010 for 3 TDs from 19 yards in. He also caught another 2 TD passes within 26 yards out. In 2011, he caught 7 passes for 3 TDs 19 yards in. In 2012, he only caught 1 pass for a TD from 19 yards in. However, he was only targeted "4" times in the red zone. Is that really Bess' bad? Or is that more to do with a rookie QB or play-calling?

Hartline was only targeted 11 times in the red zone. I don't know how many of those 15 targets combined were throwaways. I don't recall Hartline or Bess dropping and TDs in the end zone. I am pretty sure there isn't a team in the league whose top 2 WRs came close to that few targets. I would surprised if there is a #1 that has fewer than 15 targets themselves in the red zone.

 

You pay for whatever you can;t get in the draft, as per your draft analysis and boards.

To my mind, I think we can get at least one impact DE, one impact WR, a guy to compete at Guard or Tackle and a nickel corner from the draft.

In Free Agency I would spend on one WR, a TE who could start right away (not seeing us take a TE high in the draft), and potentially a starting-caliber corner if we let Marshall (though I doubt Ireland will pay what that would cost... so more likely we keep Marshall and depend on the draft for CB depth).

 

I love how you make that argument when it only applies to Hartline, but when you speak of other top scoring receivers you'll use their down year as a measure of their ability. The Hitman had 74 opportunities this year to show us what he can do after the catch, yet weakly netted 1 TD. ONE.
3 straight years and 3 TDs; that's the norm. Daddy left and he's not coming back.

 

I would think you'd want to reward the guy with a nice signing bonus that could be prorated over the course of the contract, which would lessen his cap hit. Put the money up front, given his age.

And that's another consideration here. When you draft a guy in the fourth round and he develops for you to the point that he's a Pro Bowl alternate, he's a guy you re-sign IMO, if only because that needs to be done with at least some of those players so that it can motivate the other developmental players on your roster. Let those up-and-comers you're trying to develop imagine some future dollar signs for themselves with the team they're likely going to want to stay with.

 

His number of TDs per reception decreased significantly with Tannehill from what it had been previously.

 

I remember Hartline dropping a touchdown pass in the end zone in one game. Oakland, I believe.

You are correct, though. We were a team that relied on the run in the red zone, which effect the touchdown's through the air.

 

That would be ideal. And I'm willing to bet Hartline would finish out his contract, so he would still see the money in the end of the contract.

 

Hartline has been nothing more then consistently average. He is fine as a role player on the team but he is not a star. His production over the past 4 yrs has remain relativly unchanged regardless of who was throwing him the ball and who he has played along side of. With that kind of data to draw from I think its safe to say that he is an OK WR but nothing great. If we can get him resigned for 4mil or less then great, otherwise let somebodyelse overpay for average production.

 

All of the above is controverted by the objective data.

 

This is beyond stupid. You're just throwing crap out there b/c on the surface it looks like it could fit your argument.

A. No one else had an 80 yard reception from severely busted coverage. Excluding that one play Hartline's realistic YPA is 7.84.
B. Do you really not understand the different between a perimeter WR's route running & naturally inherent YPA compared to, I dont know, backs & tight ends who typically run shorter routes underneath?

Show me a team that doesn't have its receivers averaging a greater YPA than backs and tight ends. I can't believe you're arguing against this. Just plain ridiculous.

 

Where do you get this "straight" 5 million number from?

 

His production is not average, though. He was one of 20 receivers in the NFL with 1,000 plus yards. That's not average production.

 

He's asking for 5-6 million a season. I'm assuming if we sign him, it will be for an average of 5 million a season.

What I'm asking is will it be 5 million every season, or back loaded to benefit us today.

 

And this is the point where my conversation with you in particular about a topic ends.

 

I think he'll need to buy his own team to make 5 million a season. Front or back loading his contract would depend on the other guys we try to sign and how much we do or don't think we'll have left over this year I would think.

 

He's going to get 5-6 million a season. The sooner you accept that, the better.

Hopefully, it's from us.

 

I didn't say not to invest money in offensive skill positions. I am all for adding another quality WR. Although, it may be wise to do it through the draft? WR is one of the deeper positions this year. I am not opposed to adding Jennings/Wallace/Bowe in addition to signing Hartline. My response was to the thread indicating Hartline wants $5-$6 million range. I think that is a fair price for both sides. What I think would be foolish is letting Hartline walk, spending big bucks on a seasoned WR and thinking the WR group has significantly improved. I also think Matthews may be legit.

The most important position to improvement of the team without a doubt is QB play, so if that doesn't improve it isn't going to matter too much who gets added. The one game Matt Moore played he was able to hit Gaffney on a 30 yard pass and Moore on a 37 yard pass. That was only on 19 attempts. Interesting how he was able to get additional WRs involved in making a couple of plays.

Chad Henne was Chad Henne when his WRs group was "Ginn, Camarillo, Hartline, and Bess," and "Marshall, Hartline, and Bess," and "Blackmon, Shorts, and Shipley." Did the WRs group turn Henne into and all-pro? Actually, Henne has been most successful with Ginn, Cam, Hartline and Bess as his core.

No, I don't think Hartline will be leading the league anytime soon, or EVER, in TDs. I think he can do better than 1 TD. He did have 5 TDs on 109 catches heading into this season. Not great, but better than 1 TD on 74 catches. I also think Hartline was Tannehill's best friend. I thought RT relied on Hartline like a security blanket hitting him on quick slants making pre-snap reads.

 

No, it apparently ended with the quite pertinent rest of my post that you omitted from the quote. You're conveniently using my statement as a copout excuse to not address the flaw in your thinking b/c you know there's nothing you can do to address it. Typical, again you take the approach of what best suits your argument rather than the truth.

 

This is true, in terms of total yards, he had a nice year.

Im no stat guru but I think these are some intresting numbers to look at:

2009: he caught 53% of targeted passes and averaged 5.5 YAC per reception
2010 59% - 5 YAC
2011 52% - 2 YAC
2012 59% - 3 YAC

Those are respectable numbers but they are nothing exceptional. I'm by no means saying he is a bad WR but I would not breal the bank trying to keep him here. Honestly I think if we could add another WR that could be similiarly as productive along with a better TE and a good receiving back then our passing game would be competetive with the better teams offenses.

 

Actually, this is what matters the most. Flacco has played like a top tier QB in the playoffs...in fact, the two top rated QBs and the two who have played the best in the playoffs are who are playing in the Super Bowl.

 

It is harder for less talented WRs to get open when the field is compressed, such as it is inside the red zone.

 

Please bait somebody else. I have no desire to play your game with you.

 

If your entire argument revolves around believing Hartline truly deserves 5-6 million per year rather than b/c you're practicing favoritism toward a player you've grown fond of, then that's understandable, and I won't criticize your belief, although I do disagree with it. However, if you start twisting stats in Shouright fashion as if you believe it'll pull the wool over the rest of our eyes, then I'll quickly lose respect for you in the process.

I think Hartline can do better than 1 TD as well, but I don't think it's "better" enough to rationalize keeping him as our primary receiver and not upgrading the position. At the cost of $5-6 million It'd be wiser to put that toward Jennings/Wallace/Bowe and use the draft to replace Hartline if re-signing him isn't feasible. But make no mistake, he should not be the priority, not if his signing financially costs us an opportunity to upgrade the position via Jennings/Wallace/Bowe. They should be the priority, and Hartline should involve the wait and see approach so we don't irresponsibly shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

Largely out of necessity.

 

I don't think you have any idea what's going on in my mind, but nice try.

 

you mean moore also has henderson, colston, graham, sproles

 

I agree. I don't see 5 million per season as breaking the bank on Hartline, though.

I would prefer to keep him, bring in Jennings, and invest in another tight end, whether it's through Free Agency or the draft.

 

Wonderful.

 

no one really knows to be honest, no one....

 

Maybe. Why was it necessary, though? You could say we lacked weapons, or you could say we had a rookie starting at QB. Or you could say that Philbin really does prefer to run in the Red Zone. We won't why.

 

Careful Adam! You know how important respect from a bunch of anonymous people on a message board is!

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

Thats fair. I think 4 mil is a better number but its Ross's money not mine. If you want to give him 5mil I'll approve it LOL.

 

So you're thinking upward of 5 year/$30 million for a guy with 3 TDs in 3 years and 24% of his 2012 yards coming from 1 game? Sorry, don't see an NFL GM agreeing with you.

 

I do.

 

Just consider yourself fortunate that he's chosen to stop arguing with you. When a kid decides to take his toys and go home, you know you've won anyway.

 

I often wonder if you even know what is going on in there.

 

.... but how did the Ravens get to the playoffs in the first place? Was it on the back of his 87.7 QBR?