Edge rushers in this draft

I watched JPP play live during his one season with USF. I saw that man do some incredible things even though he didn't end up with incredible production. Ansah doesn't really remind me of him, IMO. I think Ansah is brutally strong and pretty talented, but I wonder if he can be a consistent pass rusher. With Barkevious Mingo it's just disturbing to me that this is supposed to be what he is, he's supposed to be a great pass rusher because he's so athletic, and yet he can't finish. He's always falling down or failing to counter, etc. It's not like I don't like him I just can't consider him amongst my top talents in the draft.

I like Dion Jordan a lot. I like Alex Okafor a lot. I like Cornellius Carridine a lot. I like Jarvis Jones a little better than I like Keke Mingo, but I'm very wary of spinal stenosis that was bad enough that a team like USC actually told him he should quit football and refused to put him on the field. I think Bjoern Werner is the best in the Draft. I like Damontre Moore though not as much as some do. I like Corey Lemonier.

I'm not a fan of Sam Montgomery or William Gholston.

James Gayle and Anthony Barr made smart decisions to return to school.

 

Well, TBH, we sort of could use a DT who can pass rush

I'm hoping we sign the CFL's Odell Willis as an answer to a partner to Wake, 76k max signing bonus, worth the risk imo

 

Oh man, I can't believe I haven't done an Ansah thread yet, because I love the kid. That said... not at 12 (I've been saying that a lot lately about players).

Ranking them? Well, I won't compare apples and oranges, but here are my thoughts.

Jarvis Jones 3-4 OLB, not a fit.
Barkevious Mingo - Let me down on film. What quickness. What athleticism. What an inability to actually finish and make impact plays. Bust potential. No thanks. He's a taller, smaller, much more active, quick version of Larry English and is destined to have a similar potential let-down in the NFL.
Damontre Moore - I would not call him an 'edge rusher'. He is a complete DE, and his edge rush is average, but his power, his length, his ability to play the run, to redirect his pass rush inside, and to simply get to the QB makes him superior. Best Strongside DE in the draft. I'd be ****ing elated if he made it to #12. I like him enough that I believe Jeff Ireland may trade up to #5 to get him.
Bjoern Werner - Honestly, it's been a long time since I watched him and I can't find my notes, so take any of this with a grain of salt. I came away impressed with his get-off and get-around, when he is fired up he is unstoppable, but when he is NOT fired up well... he can go stretches... that's my only concern. But he is a solid top ten guy. Won't make it to 12. If he does you jump all over him
Dion Jordan - I get squeamish about Strongside DE projects who are raw, lanky, and lack power to anchor against the run. He isn't weak, per se, but he is more of a weakside DE and we already have Wake. I see Dion as a guy that in year three of his career is a great great player. Until then, he'll be raw, making mistakes that are costly, rotating in and out a bit as he learns, and definitely hitting the weight room. At 6'6' he intrigues, but a long way to go before he is great. Too thin, and a shoulder injury won't help him fix that anytime soon as he lays off the weights. In fact, being THAT thin at that height with those long limbs is what makes him more injury prone, IMO. I bet he has thing wrists and ankles too. Definitely not at 12th overall. But know this... five years from now, he has a (small) chance of actually playing the best of anyone in this class.
Ezekial Ansah - Ziggy, Ziggy, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways? I love him as a strongside DE. This guy is unruly as hell on a football field. he is powerful. he is a dangerous defender who disrupts, blows up blocking, powers through O-linemen to the QB and often looks totally uncoached and unconventional (owing to only having played the sport a couple years. CK noted he almost tried to slide-tackle a player in one game. lol.) Seriously, this guy is a beast physically, and VERY VERY VERY instinctive. I think he has the potential to be not just a perennial Pro bowler, but JUST below HoF level if everything comes together for him in the NFL. The problem is, there are plenty of question marks too. First of all, there is the unruly lack of experience style of play. Can and will he be coached up? What if he doesn't improve technique, what if complex defensive assigments elude him? We don't know. Also, he has very little edge rush speed. He doesn't threaten to bend the arc. The truth is, he is a risk at #12. I love Ansah dearly and would happily take him anywhere from pick #20 on. I'd defnitely trade back up into the bottom of the first to nab him if he is still there and we didn't take a DE at #12.

The priority, in my mind, is to find a strongside DE, not a pure edge rush DE who would get washed out agains the run on the strongside.

To me, there are only two targets who do that: Damontre Moore (who we'd have to move up for) or Ezekial Ansah, who we are better off taking lower than 12.

It's not just about the player you want, it's about the value at the spot you are picking.

 

I agree with Ansah not being that similar to JPP. I think people just mean in terms of a guy who you have to trust will project into getting better at the technical side of the game, but you invest in him because of his incredibly physicality or traits. That risk/reward thing.

It's funny how I watch Bjoern and like him, yet don't feel excited about him. I wouldn't be compelled to trade up to get him, yet I would for Damontre... and I can't even explain why not.

I haven't watched Alex Okafor yet, but from what I hear I'm suspecting I'll like him as a fit for us. Actually, it's been hard to avoid reading anything about these guys until I watch them. I hate knowing anyone else's opinions or notes on a player before I watch with my own eyes, in case it changes my observations. If what I observe doesn;t match the consensus, I want that to come out, not for me to end up seeing what I already 'expect to see' from a player. you know?

 

I agree.

If he is cheap, he can be rotational. Otherwise, I think we need to trade Soliai and move a more versatile DT into that front.

 

I always take fresh looks at guys to see if I change my mind on them. Often I do. A guy that I was down on, I'll see his merits. A guy that I loved, I'll see the weaknesses.

Not with Werner. Every time I watch him, he excites me.

 

Ansah is Justin Tuck to me.

 

That's actually fair though. I could see him ending up that.

 

I think there is a question on if they want to draft an edge rusher than high.

This isn't a Tampa-2 style defense that will be happy lining up with two undersized guys wide on the edges. Coyle said he's happy with Odrick at End, and you couldn't get a 240-260 pound guy to do a lot of that stuff well. You can look at the Bengals for a lot of clues on the Dolphins defensively, and I think the lightest guy they've had in what translates to Odrick's position is 280 pounds. A guy like Carlos Dunlap I think is really who you are looking for.

Otherwise, you're looking for a Nickel edge rusher, and there's questions if #12 is worth it.

 

Ansah seems more in the Chandler Jones type of mold to me.

 

Also a fair comparison.

Agree that this defense is likely looking for a big body at defensive end which is why I've been saying that you should probably eliminate Dion Jordan, Damontre Moore, Barkevious Mingo and Jarvis Jones from consideration, unless you think any of those guys replaces Koa Misi right away in their rookie year.

I think both Bjoern Werner and Alex Okafor are arguable to still be on the board even though they will prefer a big body like Zeke Ansah and Sheldon Richardson. I think Werner plays the run beautifully and is exceptionally strong, and has the ability to gain weight if they want him to do so. He's already about 260 lbs. Okafor similar. Bigger than you think. More solid than you think. Already a 265 lbs guy and could go even higher.

But the history of Jeff Ireland suggests that it's not even a question he will want a player at 12 that plays and plays a lot right away. Not a role player, a starter. That's been his history in the 1st round and for the most part the 2nd round as well, with the only glaring exception being Pat White who was a prospect that they broke all their own rules for in drafting.

This is why you're looking at guys like Cordarrelle Patterson at that pick, or Dee Milliner, or Johnthan Banks. Or for that matter Tyler Eifert though that would not be my preference personally.

 

I just seriously doubt we go Wr at #12, Ireland is to risk averse and Wr's can easily bust

Granted any player can bust, just think Wr's carry a higher risk of busting as they need physical tools and a high football IQ.

 

Alen, Please explain the comparison- although I disagree, I'm most interested in your opinion as per the rotoworld piece you did on him- nice work, by the way.

Around 2 months ago on Draft Countdown I saw a "player to watch" feature on Ansah, just a blurb. Big dude, African, track fast, an up and comer. I mentioned Ansah here, which I believe was the first mention of Ansah on this site.

I watched him play, and given the buzz about him and track accomplishments (sub 11.0 in the 100 meters) I was expecting a 6-6, 270 lb. dynamo. What I saw was a long striding player who rushed the passer as if his feet were dipped in concrete. I've seen Aldon Smith comparisons, a early call for him to be a Hall of Fame player and now a comparison to Justin Tuck. How is he like Justin Tuck?

Ansah, like Tuck, is strong at the point of attack, both play with good leverage. But I've liked Tuck since his Notre Dame days and wanted him the year we drafted Matt Roth. Tuck is a 4/3 DE who can get after it, can harass a QB with his strength, speed and quickness while being a well rounded DE- best of both worlds. I think that most would agree that stellar DE play from a combo of Strahan, Osi and Tuck helped greatly in 2 Super Bowl victories (Strahan in the 1st) and they have been a constant strong suit for the Giants the last couple of years.

Ansah is strong at the LOS and seems to use his hands well. He's heads up and uses his long frame and instincts to be a constant threat to bat down passes. He looks solid against the run, especially imo when he is able to track down RBs in the flat from behind with his long strides, where the track speed shows.

But he is completely underwhelming as a pass rusher. Does he have any moves? Why does he look so slow when he's rushing the QB? Where is the quickness to go along with the power, where is the talent at bending the arc? It's at the point where I feel that I'm part of the "Emperor's New Clothes" story, and I have no idea what other people are seeing. To me, Justin Tuck is a pretty solid version of what you would WANT Ansah to be, not what he is. Matt Jones and Ansah come to mind in terms of tall, long striders that have speed that just doesn't translate onto the field particularly well. What did Jones run at the combine, a 4.33?

I would love to have a DE like Justin Tuck on the Dolphins across from Wake He was a great pas rusher at Notre Dame and imo he has to be one of the best overall DE's in the league. Ansah isn't even in the same ball park as Tuck as a pass rusher, and that goes all the way back to when Tuck was at Notre Dame.

Also, I would respectfully disagree about Ansah at 3/4 OLB- iirc you said that you could see him playing there. I think that with his lack of short area quickness and long stride he's have a hard time playing in space against NFL RBs. I've seen him track down RBs in the flat, moving horizontally down the LOS, but those impressive plays usually seem to be him on a straight sprint from behind, where his track speed actually shows.

ps Alen, great article on Matt Elam that you did here, I enjoyed it:

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/42288/321/can-gators-s-elam-cover

 

I have a feeling that Ansah is the one that Coyle would probably be banging the table for.

 

You have no problem with it. I'm pretty sure Jeff Ireland does though, especially as that situational player would essentially relegate his 3rd round pick from a year ago to being a special teams player only.

 

Ck, in your opinion do you think Okafors a better pick than Banks?

 

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Or he could keep his same roll.

Wake Odrick Vernon draftee as the dime.

 

I can't say. Just being honest. I have done a fair amount of work on Okafor, not enough on Banks. I like Okafor a lot better than a lot of people I think. He was a guy that seemed to be forgotten about, still seems to be forgotten about, but I never forgot him. Whenever I'd watch Texas, he stood out. He has THE best hand use of any of the defensive end/pass rushers.

 

For all the talk about Vernon at linebacker he was still used this year as a stand up rush end. He did some coverage work but he didn't play Koa Misi's spot. We're just speculating when we talk about him moving out to there. They tried to use him more like Miami had been using him in his final year.

 

Just curious but why do you think Okafor has gotten no love?

It's not like his brother is Vernon Gholston or anything in the NFL either.

 

I don't know. Texas defense kind of fell off the map a lot but that wasn't his fault. He's got a rep for not being explosive but I think he has plenty of talent.

 

Makes sense. Texas was horrible this year, they were hard to watch as a team. And maybe he wasn't as explosive as his brother so he got written off quickly by the media.

 

Who are you referring to? Okafor doesn't have a brother in the NFL.

 

wow, I am an idiot... I knew his last name was Okafor, but for some weird reason I kept thinking he was Orakpo's brother. I think their last names were odd enough, while similar enough that I didn't take the time to mentally recognize they were different lol. Also, I thought they were related because both played for Texas.

Wonder if he is related to Emeka Okafor.

 

Lol wow, I've been doing the same thing

 

I thought Emaka Okafor was his brother.

 

There was nothing revealed in that line from Barry Jackson. All talk of Odrick moving to tackle was explicitly predicated (at least, by me) on them letting Randy Starks walk.

 

I agree the intention to keep Starks was a key reveal, but I'm wary of the follow up line about how far apart they are. Whether you really intend to keep a guy or not to me is signaled by your offer and how competitive it is. We haven't seen details but it sounds like they're not competitive in their offer (yet). We will just have to see.

Nonetheless I'll believe Jeff Ireland drafts a rotational player at 12 overall when I see it. Until then I don't think it's going to happen.

 

I could easily see Ireland taking Banks, a tight end or even Cooper at 12. Hopefully if he plays FA well, he's making complimentary and not need picks at 12.

 

If you can get Okafor in the second, that's great value. Good explosion off the line, really like the way he uses his hands to get off blocks while pass rushing. Also is able to drive the lineman back to collapse the pocket. Would be a nice strong side DE as he has more of a power rush game compared to Wake's pure speed and athleticism on the edge.

I watched some tape of D. Moore and Okafor consecutively, and found that while Moore would extend his arms into the Tackle but kind of just run with him and not separate of the block, Okafor would have a more conscious effort to use his hands to get off the block after extending his arms.

 

Doubt you're getting Okafor at 42 but that's me. I think by 42 you're down to Carridine, Lemonier, and one of the top guys ho mysteriously falls a lot further than anyone imagined (my guess is Jarvis Jones, based on the stenosis).

 

Wouldn't be surprised to see him gone by 42 as well, but the depth at the position could potentially push him further than he should be picked. Crazier things have happened on draft day