Clark Judge: Mike Pouncey the better Pouncey, best Center in the NFL.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Frumundah Finnatic, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pittsburgh won a superbowl and went to another with one of the worst lines I ever saw.
     
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  2. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Yeah, they were a bunch of road graders. Good thing they had a 245 lb. jackrabbit QB back there to extend plays...
     
  3. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good thing our guy is pretty quick on his feet.
     
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  4. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There aren't enough hours in the day to give this type of mentality the hate and scorn it deserves.

    It's reductive and anti-intellectual to the point of inanity. It's literally the fantasy football viewpoint. It writes off huge portions of the game as it happens in reality for no reason other than it being boring to the dilettante.
     
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  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well don't misunderstand I'm not saying "Pouncey Suckssss!"

    Not at all in fact a mid 1 for a pro bowl quality Center in a shallow draft is a good price to pay.

    It is more that the idea of spending high picks constantly on the OL has led us to yet another middle of the road season, add in even the playmakers we do have are FA's and I refuse to engage in the cripple fight yet again.

    If I were Ireland, I'd not have much in my office at this point in time, when UDFa's are outplaying your high pick offensive "skill' players, you are doing a bad job.

    1 pro bowler, whom he did not draft? 3 straight .500 or below seasons?

    What exactly is the doing in Davie?
     
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  7. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I can't speak for Padre, but I'm in agreement with him about playmakers > lineman. "How many TD's does so and so score" is a perfectly legit argument because we're talking about value.

    Having all pro lineman are not as important as having all pro playmakers. Give me an average-above average Oline and all pro skill positions everyday of the week of every season. The NFL is a game that takes place in the open field. It's about explosion and quick strike ability.

    Remember back when Miami traded for and signed Ricky Williams and Miami had one of the best offensive lines in football? Where did that get us? Nowhere. Why? Teams had no respect for anyone on the perimeter. They would put 8 in the box on first and second down every set of downs. Because we had a great oline and a great RB, we were competitive to a degree. But it was all for nothing year in and out. Orande Gadsden wasn't scaring anyone. Chris Chambers, besides his one great game, never scared anyone. I could go on and on...

    Look at New England. Team has a terrible offensive line and they 11-4, bout to be 12-4 most likely (Here's to hoping for 11-5...). Couple of crappy fluke loses (Arizona with Gostkowski missing a chip shot, and the highly questionable Baltimore Raven's loss because of replacement officials throwing flags at will). They're doing just fine with their bad oline. They've got a number of talented play makers lining up all over the field.

    Lineman obviously have an influence on the game... You can't have 5 Marc Columbo's and win. But you don't need all-pro's either. Money and picks are better spent elsewhere. Guys that fit into the evolution of the NFL. The NFL by way of rule changes, has dictated perimeter player importance. With all the advantages offenses have, you need players to exploit it. Does inserting Jake Long circa 2008 going to win us more games than the 2012 version? Or Jonathon Martin, an average to above average lineman? No... We'd still be a 7 win team entering the final game. Lineman simply can't impact the game as much with all-pro play.

    The NFL has made it damn near impossible to win without a QB and playmakers. You're never going to see another Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jim McMahon, etc... type win a SB again. And certainly not throwing to starters like Fasano, Bess, and Hartline.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Excellent one is one of the largest proponents of a failed philosophy, by not continuing one saves me feeding the scorn that failure deserves back to you on a metaphorical silver platter.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agree. A good oline is key. Spending inordinate amounts of resources on the Oline and not getting it done, is a failure. Doing so at the expense of key skill positions more failure on top of that.

    A decent oline is all you need. You don't need a spectacular oline (although it helps ... if you have playmakers already). Spending a crapload on an oline that is leaky. Well.
     
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  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Suggesting one is more important than the other is something that can be rationalized. Suggesting that there is a reality that is reflected in the idea that one pales in comparison to the other is ridiculous and illegitimate.
     
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  11. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    You've seen a mark sanchez go to back to back afc championships. Recently. Whose more important? Who knows. Saying one doesn't have an effect on tds when they are part of the overall system, is as padre likes to say absurd.
     
  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know what this means.

    What you're peddling is essentially entirely theoretical. The reality is that successful teams do not hold your viewpoint. Most all of the teams competing in the Super Bowl have been willing to spend high picks on offensive linemen. You're not offering a hard truth, you're substituting your own based on who knows what.
     
  13. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Right, I don't agree with him that they have NO effect. I'm simply pointing out, I agree with the statement that every position holds a certain amount of value. Lineman happen to be the lowest of the 11 on the field.
     
  14. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Then what do defensive tackles and edge rushers hold in terms of value, then?
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    To say the Oline is less important than skill players, do you guys also believe corners are more important than the dline? Because you'd have to.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    At exactly the same time. lol.
     
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  17. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Meh, Ireland went all in with Philbin/Sherman/Tannehill. That's a major transition...

    I thought it was a pretty savvy move to clear cap space and add draft picks considering nobody thought Tannehill would be this good, this early. You could play captain hindsight and lobby to keep Marshall and Davis in order to have a better shot at the playoffs, but I just think it times out better this way.

    My opinion of Ireland is like a swinging pendulum. However, I liked what he did last draft, and I expect this next draft to be playmaker and passrusher heavy.
     
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  18. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I think this is the moral of the story...
     
  19. WhiteIbanez

    WhiteIbanez Megamediocremaniacal

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    Which is all the more reason to let Long test the market.
     
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  20. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Tag and trade, Whitey...Tag and trade.
     
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  21. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Not as much as they use to, IMO. Again, with the NFL's rule changes and the forced evolution it's caused, lineman (offensive and defensive) aren't making as big of an impact as they would of in the past. Defenses in general aren't as effective... The NFL is all about getting the ball out of the QB's hands PDQ and into the hands of players capable of eating space quick. I'll put it this way, I think it's easier to design and scheme for a great defensive line (assuming you have playmakers) than it is to create a scheme in which Hartline, Bess, and Fasano can make plays consistently. Therefore WR/TE talent is more valuable, as i see it.

    Look at Demarcus Ware. Tearing **** up every week, and it doesn't mean a damn thing tbh. Or A situation you may be more familiar with. Jason Taylor with a career high in sacks, lead the NFL (along with Ricky running for a league high 1853) and we missed the playoffs.

    We thought we had the best defensive line in the NFL. Still might. Hasn't stopped (good) teams from doing whatever the hell they want to us in the passing game, regardless if we held their RB's to 50 yards rushing on 25 carries... The fact that we do have 2 VG/great tackles and Wake makes me want to add another DE. Imagine JT and Wake in their primes, playing together. In a scenario like that, the value of a DE increases because scheming against them is exponentially more difficult than just one of them. however, that is an extremely uncommon scenario. The New York Giants have a ton of great rushers... They seem to be hit or miss every week of every year. So maybe it wouldn't be the smartest thing to take another DE over a skill position...

    ATEOTD, I'll take Gronk/Megatron/Fitz > D. Ware/Matthews/Miller (primes) if given the choice.

    Fin D (healthy) Derrell Revis or a lineman of your choosing. Who you taking?
     
  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This isn't the slightest bit reflective of how actual professionals build teams.
     
  23. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Atlanta. Drafted rookie QB, surrounded him with playmakers. Colts are doing the same.

    Rams went another direction and Bradford hasn't found footing.
     
  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Right now he is the 21st center in the league with an overall +2.6
     
  25. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I hate it when we have good players too man. Sucks when some of our players are great...

    Snark comment aside... ;)


    So, he doesn't score TDs. But even so, I can think of specific TDs he created. Regardless though, why is your first reaction to come with something like that upon reading how a player of ours is playing great? You act as if that's bad thing?

    What... are you upset that we took a Center at 15 instead of a skill player? I'm as big of a fan of wanting better skill players on offense than anyone... but what offensive skill player should we have taken at 15 without using hindsight? There were only 2 offensive skill players taken in the first round after the 15th pick. Jon Baldwin of the Chiefs all the way at 26, and then Mark Ingram at 28. Neither of which have been that good.

    That draft didn't shake out for us that year. That said, if we weren't going to get a skill player at that pick, isn't it pretty great to get a player who is one of the best in the league at his position in only his 2nd year?

    I don't get your vibe on Pouncey?
     
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  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    No, he wasn't. He's the 3rd highest.
     
  27. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Is that right? My god, I've heard people parrot it so much that I just took it to be true...

    You wouldn't happen to know who the other two are, do you?
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Of course I do. :)
    Bob Johnson was drafted 2nd overall by the Bengals in 1968 and Steve Everitt was drafted 14th overall by the Browns in 1993.
    If you want to go all the way back to 1939, I looked this up, Ki Aldrich, a center/linebacker was drafted 1st overall by Chicago Cardinals. That would make Mike P the 4th highest center if we include Aldrich.
     
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  29. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Lebatard got some 'splainin' to do...He's always undermining Ireland by saying Pouncey was picked the highest.

    Thanks...
     
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  30. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like I said before Mr. Clean knows everything.

    Padre, look up the 2011 draft. The only "touchdown makers" we could have picked after that in the first would have been Mark Ingram and Jonathan Baldwin. If you would pick any of them over Pouncey you're out of your mind.
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    Well...I'm not aware of too many things, I know what I know, if you know what I mean. ;)
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is a bit to much "revision' for me to engage in tbh.

    The trend is not to spend high picks on Td producing positions, and the later picks just do not produce.

    For example Gates v Shorts et al.

    DTrain v some guy name Randall Cobb

    It just goes on and on, every year, same thing, hope a UDFA or late rd pick does something AND that we manage to keep a playmaker who has run afoul of Ireland's ethical or penurious approaches.

    Meanwhile:

    "Pouncey not in the pro bowl!!!"

    IE Cripple fight
     
  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    There have been a handful of guards drafted higher, which is relevant considering center is more important than guard. I'm not sure how you downplay the ability to control the center of the board, especially in today's NFL where the most talented big guys usually opt for Dline, not to mention the increased size of these dlinemen as well as the complexity of defenses involved in today's game that the center is partly responsible for identifying and making adjustments to.
     
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  34. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you're suggesting Ireland has done a poor job in acquiring receivers/tight ends/running backs, that's fair.

    To suggest selecting Pouncey was a mistake because he's a center is ignorant, though. And on top of that, suggesting we should have a picked a receiver/back/tight end over him when the players at those positions selected after him have been disappointments is even more ignorant. He was an excellent pick and for him not to be in the Pro Bowl is a mistake.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    A lineman. On offense we need better line play, which will allow the TE to be more on the skill side of our passing game instead of having to stay in and block. If its defense, I want a pass rusher opposite Wake. Our DCoordinator is a secondary alchemist. Our secondary wasn't quite as bad as everyone act like. The trenches are still second only to QB. Back in the day they were that important for the running game, now they are that important for the passing game.

    Understand, the only thing I see as glaring needs on our team at this point is a third competent option in the passing game and another pass rusher. I think if you consider this season as playing with more or less just 2 WRs and a blocking TE on the average play, you'll realize just how good we are. The other pass rusher will turn the other team in to a 2 WR offense liker ours currently is, and say what you will but our secondary is good enough for that.
     
  36. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe the NFL tracks records back to 1939, at least officially.

    That said, good knowledge, and I stand corrected. However, Pouncey still will have a very difficult time with the concept of overachieving.

    You do. Trenches are important. Ireland's problem is that he devoted his most valuable resources to the trenches and hasn't achieved much ROI. The offensive line has two 1st round picks (Long, Pouncey), a 2nd round pick (Martin), a third round pick (Jerry), and a free agent (Incognito) as currently constituted. That's not counting wasted money and cap space on players like Jake Grove, too.

    The defensive line is better, with just one 1st round pick and 3 free agents.
     
  37. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    pretty narrow minded Padre. get so tired of people dissecting the positions like this. guess what, it's a team game. Pouncey doesn't score TDs, but you seem to lack vision on the fact that a dominant center makes the whole offense better. makes the QB better, makes the RB better, gives the WR more time to get open.
     
  38. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Can I like Pouncey AND want playmakers? Is that impossible?
     
  39. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Also The New York Giants haven't used one of their first 2 picks on an Offensive Lineman since 2004.

    In 2004 they selected G Chris Snee with a 2nd round pick
    In 2009 they selected T William Beatty with their 2nd 2nd round pick

    Other than that, never in the 1st round.

    This is certainly a philosophy and not at all a coincidence.

    So to answer some here: It clearly is how some professionals develop and build NFL teams. And a very successful football team at that.


    EDIT: I love Mike Pouncey and am real glad he is a Miami Dolphin.
     
  40. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can remember going into the Saban era how people were complaining that we never invested enough in the OL but rather tried to turn late round picks and reclemation projects into a viable OL. How times have changed.
     
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