BTW, in comparison to The Great Ray Rice, in Yards after Catch this season...Rice has 8.4 average, and Bush has an 8.6 average. They both average 7.8 yards per catch. Rice gets thrown to more often so has more catches. Rice leads slightly in catch pct. 76.3% to 74.4% Next?
The Saints had great expectations and its pretty clear they realized they should stop feeding him the ball because he wasn't that guy. The Saints threw him the ball 119 times as a rookie. Joe Philbin isn't gonna wanna throw to a wide receiver that many times, much less for 742 yards. Every single year he was with the Saints they decreased his targets. There's a very good reason for that. He's not Darren Sproles or Ray Rice. I don't think he even makes up for his pass protection
He's one of the few guys in the NFL who can do that. It's just he can't do the easy stuff worth a damn.
Don't you think that's an indication of their offense becoming more and more dynamic each year with more and more targets for Brees to find?
That is not true. I made it into year two of my analysis to realize that. 2006: 7.43 Targets per game. 2007: 8.25 Targets per game. In 2008, he then drops to 7.2 and it then drops toward current day levels. His decline in use is directly attributed to his injury history.
so every time Philbin has him lined up at wr he should just stop pretending that he's fooling any defense?
gameplans have not included him in the passing game as much as they should. or not. it is a matter of opinion at this point. I would argue that there is enough evidence to suggest that he "can".
Let's concede for a second that he's a fantastic player, along the lines of Adrian Peterson and Arian Foster. The fact that he is about average in every rushing category should tell us that either running back production is very dependent upon factors other than that RB's talent or Reggie has been unlucky this year. Like I said, I don't know for sure. But given the nature of his position I'd be worried about paying someone for inconsistent production.
Ok? Well, if every time he gets 20 carries he averages 135yards per game. I'd say that's a very acceptable ceiling.
Stupid situational statistics... I am all for bringing Bush back for the right price (under $4M/yr) but that stat is meaningless.
I wouldn't call it meaningless. Almost no stat is meaningless. Just that, all stats need to be looked at in context, and no stat except Wins is considered ultimate. But I think $4m/year is reasonable. Any more and I would let him walk.
nobody is arguing that. Someone said he's average. I'm saying he's better than average. I'm not saying he's AP. Why do we have to go from average, jump over better than average and go straight to elite / hall of fame?
Mod Edit: Not acceptable. But we don't have Rice. We can't get Rice. Right now it's Bush plus everyone we have, or no Bush and everyone we have. I'd rather keep Reggie. Unless he wants too much money. Then we let him walk. Same with Jake Long. Is he elite? No. But he's the best we have, and you don't get better by letting go of the best guys you have. Let's say we let him walk, and we roll the dice with Miller, Thomas and whoever we draft in the offseason. You already know Ireland's RB draft history ... it sucks except for Miller (so far). Miller gets injured. Now what? You created a hole that wasn't there. Do we really need to be doing that right now?
Wait, we have a resign reggie bush thread? Id resign Long Starks Hartline or Smith before I committed big money to a 28 year old back. If hes willing to be reasonable like GIK said (under 4M per), then fine. Otherwise, you let the 2 backs you traded up to get duke it out with Gray and maybe another late 2nd/early 3rd day draft prospect. Thats just poor cap allocation
It was been, but I think our OL played better in run blocking. Besides 1 year of better production certainly doesn't elevate Bush in to Rice's level. lol And what about what I said would suggest that? I was just saying Bush isn't on Rice's level which I think most people would agree with. All depends on how much Reggie wants. If it's reasonable then I have no problem keeping him. There's a few FA RBs I def wouldn't mind either. Chris Ivory for example.
The problem with that is that it's become a passing league, and starting running backs who aren't utterly dominant are typically rotated with another back, so the opportunities to get 20 carries are few and far between. For example, Bush has done it exactly twice this year, and only three times last year, as a starting running back. Now, also factor in that your arbitrary cutoff of 20 carries has no meaning in and of itself. For example, Bush received exactly 19 carries twice this year and averaged only 56.5 yards in those games. So in the end, what you're talking about here is hardly something that should justify a large part of Reggie Bush's paycheck IMO.
Ray Rice is slightly more productive than Bush, 315 touches, 10 tds to Bush's 254 for 8, and Rice received a large deal. We can have hopes for Miller just keep in mind Bush's production is quite good, and while it is a passing league (sort of) you also need big plays from the running game. 4 yds and a cloud of dust will get you beat.
We've also been told in this thread by the self proclaimed cognescenti how Bush cannot hold a candle to Rice as a receiving back. However, in Yards after Catch this season...Rice has an 8.4 average, and Bush has an 8.6 average. They both average 7.8 yards per catch. Rice gets thrown to more often so has more catches. Rice leads slightly in catch pct. 76.3% to 74.4%. So anyone who wants to say Bush is not a good all around receiving back is saying something that is just not true.
Sample is not perfect but they are comparable. I think Ireland sees it the other way which is why I think they mistakenly let him walk. IE, kick another hole in the dam, then act surprised when early next yr their replacements do not plug the leak, but come on later AFTER we've lost 2-3 key early games, seen that so so many times. Watch, they let Bush walk, but make sure to resign Jake Long, even with evidence to the contrary of his absolute need to be resigned, meanwhile we need playmakers but of course allow our only playmaker (who is proven) walk.
That's this season. What about the other 4-5 years? And Rice is easily the better all around back. Runs through the tackles very well and excells in short yardage. Idk why the two would even be compared aside from they both catch the ball well.
it's interesting in how many times each one has been targeted. Cam Cameron was fired. Joe Flacco is Joe Flacco, check down or chuck deep... Tannehill... a rookie... seemingly throws more intermediate routes (I haven't researched this though) and whether by his own choice or the coaches, doesn't target Bush. (Lauren would get upset)
Neither are very good receivers IMO. IMO this whole "use Bush as a WR more" is a little misguided. He is a good player in space, but that doesn't necessarily make someone a good receiver. A great example is looking back at Ronnie Brown in 2007. He had a lot of receiving yards, and everyone kept talking about how great of a receiver he was. But in reality, he caught something like 1 pass that was 5 yds behind the LOS. Catching dump-offs and making something out of them doesn't really make someone a good receiver.
just to give some history on prior contract negotiations: That was the contract he signed upon being traded to Miami. He was due over $11m in the last year of his rookie deal that he signed with the Saints. Ireland stayed up until 2 in the morning to negotiate the new contract with Bush agent Joel Segal. So keep in mind that he took a significant pay cut and wanted to play here... rather than see the Saints flat out release him (which is what most expected). He could have tested the free agent market at that point. It was the first day or so of the new league year (end of July) back in 2011 after the league had agreed to a new CBA with the players. There was no hold out. There were no bad words exchanged between his management and the Dolphins. No reason to expect the two sides can't get together and get something hammered out relatively easily. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6...gie-bush-agrees-contract-miami-dolphins-trade
I disagree. Our offense was more effective when we used Bush in the passing game more. He is an instant mismatch against most LBs. It was easy to see the separation he was getting. And when he got the ball in stride, he usually made a nice gain. He may not be a good WR compared to other WRs, b/c his route running is unpolished, but that's not the comparison. I want him to catch dump offs and make something out of them. That and crossing patterns, flairs and jerk and wheel routes are all I really want my RBs doing. You can throw in the occasional seam route but that should be a very rare occasion. He was a player you saw the defense react to when we spread him out. The LB would shift over and the defense would be frantically pointing out assignments. He scared defenses out there and IMO we need more of that. The offense gains an advantage when the D is forced to change what they were planning on doing. My main complaint with Bush in the passing game is that his pass blocking is very suspect. But I have no problems with what he does when used for his receiving. I would place more of the blame on the coaching staff for how little he was used in that regard. My impression is that the coaching staff knows they didn't maximize what they had there. The usually very candid Philbin dodged the question when asked, saying something about this not being the time to evaluate that. Sherman just offered the explanation that he didn't want to put too much on a rookie QB's plate, all but admitting he would/should have used Bush more as a receiver but didn't b/c of other concerns.
My guess is that the team would like to sign him to a similar deal in terms of the per year average. I'm just not sure whether Bush feels he gave by taking a pay cut in order to prove himself and now wants a raise. IMO he did prove himself, but I would not be in favor of giving him much of a raise. I think that he's a versatile running back with good, but not great vision. He has shown the ability to produce big plays, but also some negative plays. He's a very effective player out of the backfield, but a liability in pass pro. He's also a good leader, a great example on the practice field and a good soldier. IMO the position and market for that justifies a contract of about $5 mill/ per. I would probably give in and give him the extra year to get him to age 31, but that would be as far as I'd go. Basically a four year contract where he gets $15 mill over those first three years with a fourth year that everybody knows is meaningless as he could be cut with almost no repercussions.
Bush had to give something back in essence after taking an outlandish amount in his rookie contract. I wouldn't pay him more than a 20% increase over his current contract on an annual basis. Which is in actuality another mill per season. Probably more than some are willing to go but I think you reward him and his work ethic.
Just resign him! He's a good RB and Playmaker on a roster lacking Playmakers, and he's a All-Pro on the field and in practice! Just a class act, would love to see him here for the next years!
Something along the lines of four years sounds reasonable to me. He's the type of player that can be productive into his 30's the way Tiki Barber was. I am all for keeping Bush in Miami.
Oh, I agree with that. No argument at all. We were told however earlier in the thread how limited a pass catcher Bush is, and Rice was mentioned as some sort of benchmark for quality in that regard.
