I have no clue if Philbin would of asked Ireland to draft Henne. I think your question is oversimplifing the relationship between the GM and the HC as well as thier respective roles. The GMs role is to research and find available talent. The HCs role is to tell the GM what the teams weaknesses are and which areas are in the most need of improvement. Then they both need to sit down together and collaberate on the available options. Once they have hashed it all out between themselves it becomes the GMs responsibility to use the available resources to maxium effeciency to provide the HC with what he needs to suceed. What the HC wants and what he needs may be two entirely different things but that is up to the GM to determine. Its impossible to know if Philbin could of won with Henne in 08 or if that would of been the choice if he were HC then. There is no way for me to quantify the hypothetical your asking. What I can say is that what Ireland spent 3yrs putting together as a whole was a failure. I also do allow for some question as to how much of the responsibility falls on BP. FTR I was a huge Tuna fan until he came to Miami. I grew up just outside the meadowlands back when BP was a god there. Unfortunately for Ireland I dont know how to seperate who decided what and who disagreed. It was all kept top secret. He put his eggs in the same basket so in my book I judge them both the same. Him and BP own 2008 equally.
First of all, I'm far from over simplifying the relationship between a coach and GM. In fact, I'm trying to get people to understand it. - The GMs role is to research and find available talent ....for the system they play. If the system is bad and the coaching is bad, how can you have an honest evaluation of the talent? - The HCs role is to tell the GM what the teams weaknesses are and which areas are in the most need of improvement. Sort of. I would assume the GM should already know what weaknesses his team has. I think its more about talking about specific players available in the draft, FA or in the league. Which is really your next point... - Then they both need to sit down together and collaberate on the available options. Agreed, see above. - Once they have hashed it all out between themselves it becomes the GMs responsibility to use the available resources to maxium effeciency to provide the HC with what he needs to suceed. What the HC wants and what he needs may be two entirely different things but that is up to the GM to determine. This to me is the main part. I think Ireland is unquestionably good at getting players from all over the place, that meet up with what his coach or boss wants. There are few more prototype Parcells QB's then Henne, for example. There is a actual checklist of traits Parcells wants in a rookie QB, and you can put a check by just about everyone of them for Henne. He got the perfect rookie QB for the system, the perfect LT and brought in the perfect veteran QB in one offseason. You really cannot ask more of your GM. The problem was he had an old & flawed system. We had a very flawed HC. Now we are rebuilding to a team with about as different as a system as you can get from where we were. And are just a few points away from a winning record. We'll be in the playoff next year.
if your opinion is 2012 was a "very good draft", then you need to raise your standards big time...Tannehill has been the only real contributor. Jon Martin has been below average AT BEST, Lamar Miller hasn't really done anything, Vernon made a couple plays on special teams but he's had virtually no impact on defense, and we got nothing from the rest of the picks like Egnew, Mathews, Kaddu and Cunningham.
And what are/were you expectations for each these guys? Tannehill has been a day 1 contributor, has played thru the knee injury he suffered against the stej. He has shown gradual improvement and more talent and ability than any other day 1 starter we have had since Marino retired. JMartin started late due to Stanford's requirements, but also, as a rookie learning a new position, has been a day 1 contributor and has faced some stout defenders this season. The fact that he was able to seamlessly switch positions when Long went down with no drop off in line play, speaks highly of him and his abilities. Both of these guys will be improved next season. LMiller has been limited, but again he is a 4th round selection that was coming back from shoulder surgery. He too has shown talent and ability in his limited play, but also a 4.6 avg and a TD. Vernon is an impressive physical specimen, and has contributed to ST yes, but also 2.5 sacks, 25 tackles, and forced fumble - in limited play. Matthews has played the past two weeks and showed good speed and hands last week, helping Tannehill complete 11 passes in a row at one point and also drawing a PI call. The majority of receivers take several seasons to peak, so Matthews is on track for about where he should be. Kaddu is practice squad. Cunningham is now with the Eagles...
Maybe your satisfied but many are not. 2008 was not a good draft. At this point even Long has become a questionable signing.
I don't think you have anywhere close to reasonable frame of reference if you think the Dolphins 2008 draft was below average.
Who said I was satisfied? I'm saying for the system that was in place, the 2008 offseason was one of the greatest ever, as evidenced by 1-15 turn into 11-5. That proves, Ireland did his job. The problem was, that was the best the Parcells blueprint is ever going to produce in this era of football. It has to be modified like Coughlin and Payton have learned. You need a real QB not a Phil Simms who is content not making mistakes but not lighting it up either. One one side you have Simms, Penny on the other you have the Mannings, Brady, Brees.......which side is Henne more like? Considering that was the best Parcells system would ever do, it was only downhill from there. Ireland could have had more offseasons like 2008 and we still wouldn't have been any better than 11-5. We were too reliant on the running game. We couldn't play from behind and the wildcat stopped being a novelty and defenses were designed for it. Everything was safe. That was the way Parcells liked it. That was the way Sparano coached it. I'm not satisfied at all with our past. I wasn't satisfied when Shula took over GM. I wasn't satisfied when JJ **** the bed on offensive pick ups. I was far past dissatisfied when Wanndip**** took over. I was dissatisfied in Culpepper over Brees. I was dissatisfied that Cam couldn't coach. I was very unhappy when we signed Parcells. But now, from what I've seen of the Philbin era and Ireland's ability to shift from parcells personnel to Philbin's....I am satisfied this year. I'm satisfied because for the first time in decades we have the proper power structure, a cerebral HC and the makings of a great QB. I saw team that is only a few points from being in contention. **** the record this year, no one thought we'd be in the playoffs anyway, so why is everyone upset? We needed to see a team start to form this year and we did.
Jake Long - selected to anchor the left tackle position and play at a pro bowl level for the next decade. That's not looking so good at the moment. Phillip Merling - 32nd overall, bust Chad Henne - pick 57, bust Kendall Langford - pick 66 with the Rams now Shawn Murphy - pick 110 - giant bust Jalen Parmalee - pick 176 let's just say when I search "parmalee" on ESPN.com only Bernie shows up... Donald Thomas - pick 195 plays for the Pats now Lex Hilliard - pick 204 plays for the Jets now Lionel Dotson - pick 245 not in football Too be fair UFA Davon Bess should be included. So 4+ years later that gives us a grand total of two players still with the team. A somewhat injury prone LT whose play has declined and a good slot receiver. Both could reasonably be with other teams next season. Of course it's normal for some picks to not work out, but there are barely any remnants of the 2008 draft on the current Miami Dolphins roster. You seem to be trying to say that on average, NFL GMs do no better than this in any given draft. I have a hard time believing that.
You have a hard time believing it, but you're not actually going to bother researching it? Uh..er...what? This is not a feelings and emotion-based kinda thing. You can go look this up. Jake Long was a very good pick. Not as good as Matt Ryan would have been, but still much better than most #1 overall or top 10 picks. Kenadall Langford and Donald Thomas were good picks. That's without considering the rest of the players. Factually speaking, two high-quality starting players(Long and Langford) are a quite good draft result.
I get it, you think Ireland did an unquestionably good job at providing Sporano the players that BP wanted him to have. Your also ready to annoint RT as a starting caliber QB. Therefor you think Ireland is a good GM. I'm not as convinced as you are. I think Ireland could of done a better job at finding talent in the draft. As Muscle rightly points out in his post above, there is almost nobody on the team from that draft class and the ones that are on it are questionable.
If we let him go, it's an unquestioned sh$& draft, if he stays, it's below average overall..same kind of draft this franchise has had to endure for the last two decades..
Tannehill has exceeded all reasonable expectations. Martin is above average considering where he was drafted. Vernon has indeed made plays on ST, exactly what u want from a backup DE/LB. Egnew has been a disappointment, Miller has shown he can play and deserves a chance to develop. That's a pretty good haul IMO. Even though its silly to judge a draft class after 8 months.
That's because you aren't searching for the right thing. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/11410/jalen-parmele Nice attempt at a dig though. Also, if you're including Bess, not sure why you aren't including Carpenter.
Well, to be objective: -How many Td's have players Ireland acquired scored since 2011? (2 yrs inow) -Where does that stack up against the league avg Defensively: -How many turnovers has the D created since 2011? -Td's scored by d? -Points allowed ranking on avg? My gut tells me Ireland will do fine on sacks, and special teams Td's scored, the other categories..let us be honest: He kinda sucks at finding playmakers folks.
I agree. lol what? we used a high 2nd on him, his performance this year has been pretty bad actually. Vernon was drafted to rush the passer, something he hasn't done well at all this year. no ****, we've been saying this about Ireland's draft picks far too often over the last 5 years. you really aren't refuting anything I said. you're talking about that dangerous word potential....I'm talking about production. no one is as big of a fan of Lamar Miller as I am, I'm a diehard canes fan and when we were on the clock in the 4th round the only non-WR I was cool with drafting was Miller because I thought getting him in the 4th round was an absolute steal, and I have no problem letting Bush walk because I think Miller can do everything Reggie can do...however the fact that he barely sees the field this year is disappointing. I completely gree, I was just disagreeing with cuchulainn when he claimed that after 8 months this was a very good draft, it's not, as of RIGHT NOW its actually pretty disappointing, but then again I'm used to it at this point.
I don't have all day to sit here and research the 2008 drafts of 31 NFL teams. If you do I'd be more than happy to look at the results and compare. Didn't Donald Thomas get cut in Miami?
Apparently you don't have to actually keep the players on your roster for them to be considered 'good' picks...
This is nonsense. Perhaps if you were trying to grade the scouting team. Yes most picks bomb, even #1 overall or top 10 ten picks. But having one starter from a complete draft. At that rate you'd need 53 drafts before you could even compile a complete team from draft picks. That's assuming we re-sign Long.
There is almost nobody left because the blueprint was bad. Ireland didn't acquire players in a vacuum. If you have a recipe for a tuna fish and grape jelly sandwich, you can go and buy the finest tuna, the best bread and the highest quality grape jelly.....and still end up with a disgusting result. Who's at fault, the guy with the recipe or the guy that bought the ingredients?
Neglect pure and simple at the receiving skill position for Ireland. That includes third down backs, tight ends, and wide receivers. His neglect in getting these positions really stood out this year. He did better on defense and at qb, but poor in general on offense. I give him a pass on Martin right now. He needed Egnew to play this year.
You're crazy!! A franchise QB alone is a major PLUS. Add a starting left/right tackle of the future who played extremely well today makes it a PLUS PLUS, and he might've just saved us a TON of money and/or high draft pick for potentially not having to re-sign Jake. How people ignore Oline as if it's an insignificant position is beyond me. Then add in 2 other rookies playing and looking promising, Miller & Matthews, despite being a 4th & 7th rounder. We're set up to add much better and more appropriate receiver/TE options next year b/c of being patient. Don't be surprised to Jennings & Finley in aqua & orange.
