Go to their stats, click splits, and click when their stats when they're down by a minimal amount. Hartline for example I believe has his best production when the team is down by 1-8 points, which is I think not a majority of snaps either. I'm telling you that's not correct. Two deep coverage isn't inherently respect for the deep pass. A safety in the box isn't inherently a concession towards the run. The Dolphins have played teams like the Jets and Cardinals who will do that whenever. Need for more and different weapons is not inherently an indictment on Bess and Hartline and a long way from suggesting they should be demoted to #3's and #4's. Also I'm not sure I'll ever trust any analyst ever again after hearing Hall of Fame offensive linemen Dan Dierdorf call a zone rushing play an example of great powerful man blocking the other day. It's like they go to a special school to learn how to say the most simplistic and fan-pleasing things regardless of accuracy.
Hartline's first three years featured 44 games. So far this season Brown has had injury issues and has played 35 games. 9 games mean absolutely nothing in a sport with 16 games per season.
This argument is so ridiculous. The god damn head coach of the football team came out and said the receivers can't separate so what the hell are we even arguing about?
I think the funny thing is, if you're going for missed tackles you're barking up the wrong tree. Brian Hartline only has one this year, but so does Mike Wallace. Davone Bess is second in the league behind Percy Harvin with 14. There was probably a context for that.
In those games Brown had Big Ben throwing him the football. Hartline had Chad Henne/Ryan Tannehill. Similar production. Similar contract. Hartline deserves it.
If you think Brian Hartline deserves almost 8 million a year, you're crazy. He is not $3 million away from being Vincent Jackson. Do you honestly believe the Steelers would trade Antonio Brown straight up for Hartline. EDIT: This is ridiculous. Brian Hartline is one of only TWO wide receivers on this team who should be playing. Antonio Brown did it in his SECOND year with four NFL receivers on that team. Hartline would not be doing what he's doing this year on the Steelers.
Do you see a pattern here? No matter what the specific issue is is, you have an excuse for Hartline and Bess. This time the excuse is that Philbin's criticism of the Wrs was probably taken out of context. Really? Well, again, here's the title of the article: "Joe Philbin: WRs' inability to create separation an issue" I think that's pretty straightforward. Yeah, the context was that our Wide Receivers suck and can't be counted on to create separation when it's needed the most. Which kind of goes in hand with our GM saying that we have a bunch of 3s and 4s at the position and the nearly universal consensus among football people that we have a severe deficiency at the position. Pretty much everything you say as per this subject of B&H is stat related- as the saying goes, "stats lie". No offense, but anyone who has even a glimmer of what they're looking at can see what football people across the nation have come out and said publicly- we have major deficiencies at WR, and Bess/Hartline are the core of that unit. You can yank out any stat that you'd like, but at the end of the day your eyes, not stats, should guide your opinions imo. And my eyes tell a pretty straightforward tale - Hartline and Bess are one of the worst starting WR duos in the league. They're constricting the offense and work poorly as a tandem because they magnify individual weaknesses that drag the whole offense down. When you make statements like: "Need for more and different weapons is not inherently an indictment on Bess and Hartline and a long way from suggesting they should be demoted to #3's and #4's." Well, that makes me wonder. We wouldn't even be having this discussion in the absence of that one big game from Hartline- other than that he's had his usual pedestrian, average, less than spectacular year. I will be pissed if we overpay him with money that should be devoted to better playmakers on both sides of the ball. What Hartline is, is a competent WR. What he is not is a clutch playmaker and difference maker. Your even bringing up Harvin and Wallace in the same post and context as Hartline and Bess show what a complete folly statistics can be when comparing players. Stats can lie, indeed. If ever there was a joke of a stastistical comparison, this one might take the cake: "I think the funny thing is, if you're going for missed tackles you're barking up the wrong tree." "Brian Hartline only has one this year,but so does Mike Wallace. Davone Bess is second in the league behind Percy Harvin with 14.' That's a great example imo of why stats should often be left at the door. Brian Hartline can hardly create a missed tackle to save his life, and Bess isn't anything to write home about in that regard either. To then trot out a stat to compare them favorably to Wallace, and especially Percy Harvin, is dubious at best. The original point that the other poster made was valid- Hartline blows at making defenders miss, at escapability. No stat that you can yank out of a crevice will ever get Hartline anywhere near to Harvin in that regard. Go to :46 here to see how it's done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3rpkeojz28
This has little relevance to anything. Never did he say fans believe it so it's true. Aqua said he's in a small minority of fans. In the context of all of the other information and debate that has taken place in this thread, it's ridiculous of you to suggest that's his argument. This is like the soundbite media. Take on thing out of context and boom, the opponent is straight crazy all of a sudden.
Hartline is a lot of fun to watch on his routes. His trajectory is really quite fluid and graceful making routine circus catches with incredible body control. He's got his own Jeet Kun Do going on in this sport. He could get decent free agent money if he left...
I already said he should be making 5-6 million per year on average. I didn't say more than Brown. I said close. Hartline would produce just as much as Brown would on the Steelers. You seem to not understand that Hartline's production is not a function of an abnormal amount of passes thrown his way. He's on pace to have a similar amount of passes thrown his way than Brown did last season. With Big Ben throwing him the ball, his production would be similar to Brown's.
They would all be wrong. And please don't tell me what's funny. The comedy comes from those who think Hartline is a bad receiver because he wasn't drafted in the first round or isn't 6'5 220 with a 4.3 40. Hartline has similar numbers to Brown with worse play at the QB position. Those are the facts. He's a damn good receiver. He deserves a contract of 5-6 million per year.
Brown's contract averages about $7.5 million per year. You also seem to have no idea what the context of scheme, playcalling, and what can be seen in game mean. You're just looking at Hartline's numbers and saying "Hey, in a completely different situation, he'd be doing the exact same thing."
And I suppose you do? Tell me then. What scheme is run the by Steelers that wouldn't allow Hartline to have success like Brown? How is it different than ours? How is the play calling different? Why wouldn't Hartline have as much success there with a better QB than he's had here? I'm pointing out facts, showing you how their production is similar. That is how comparisons usually work.
Nice spin job. Tell me how much of your own post do you actually believe.I'm betting not much.come better prepared next time.thanks He compared the majority of fans opinions to the posters no matter how much you want to spin that.save your meaningless rant for someone else
.... but no matter where Marshall was, the safety and linebacker on his half or third of the field were always cognizant and respectful of his presence, and he was quite frequently bracketed hi-low or inside-out to where he could rarely run short to intermediate in-breaking routes w/o a corner, safety, and linebacker being nearby to converge on it. Conversely, when you look at the Hartline photo, we're trailing 6-0 with 5 minutes till halftime, within scoring range on the 30 in a favorable passing down, and our previous 6 rush attempts went for -5 yards, yet the nearest linebacker isn't even looking at Hartline, and all 3 linebackers are within 3 yards of the LOS while the corners are squatting on the routes eyeing Tannehill the whole way. The Rams would've had every reason to bracket Hartline on this play <based on the play call with him being isolated at the top> if he posed any true threat, but they didn't. It's no wonder Bush is a non-factor in the passing game.
Until we're winning, no one is good, from the GM on down. ...except Tannehill, the rookie QB who's never done anything at the NFL level.
Antonio Brown is used a lot more behind the line of scrimmage. He has 21 receptions behind the line of scrimmage this season while Hartline has exactly 1. Another 14 of his receptions came within 1-10 yards of the LOS which is a function of his usage in space to make his own plays. Hartline has a lot of hooks, curls, out cuts and occasional straight line routes because he and space aren't friends as evidenced by his only 28 yard reception against the 49ers. The Dolphins don't have many WR screens in the playbook, whether by design or by WR limitation. A lot of concepts from TAMU are the same. We focus a bit more on the run than traditional WCO's. Again, probably due to WR limitation. Our short distance downs are often runs while the Steelers do trust their receivers to make plays on short passes, something we can't do well. Hartline doesn't do what Steeler receivers are asked to do nearly as well. He's not the deep threat of Mike Wallace. He's not the elusive space eater of Antonio Brown or Emmanuel Sanders. He isn't the red zone threat that Burress was brought in to be. They have complimentary receivers who are great at their craft. He's a quality guy who isn't outstanding at anything. 1,000 yards isn't exciting anymore. You're consistently saying "their numbers are similar, therefore they're essentially the same talent level." I'm pointing out facts, showing you how their production is similar. That is how comparisons usually work.
Aqua said: In response to: You replied with: As if Aqua has only said here that fans = the right thing. The implication of Aqua's post is that what Anonymous said was far beyond the pale. Not even close to the argument to authority that you implied.
The Steelers do run more screens than we do for Hartline. That would probably be the case if Hartline were in Pittsburgh. Brown is better in space than Hartline. The differences end there. And they aren't that significant. The screen yards this year have only accounted for 132 yards for Brown. Last season, the screen yards only accounted for 48 yards.We don't run more because of our "receiver limitation". We run more because our QB is a rookie. Teams generally like to rely on the run more when they have a rookie at QB. I would also like to see proof that we run more on third and short than they do. Hartline isn't elite at anything. He's good at many things. He can run the full route tree and can work from any area of the field. He would have success in Pittsburgh. He may not be as elusive as Brown but that wouldn't stop him from having success, especially since he does the important things well.
He's on pace for 120 passes thrown his way. MAYBE a little more. His production is not a function of too many passes thrown his way. That's the same amount of passes Brown was thrown to last season. Last season, Brown had 127 passes thrown his way. His production is a function of his above average play. With Greg Jennings here next season, Hartline should still see 100+ passes thrown his way. And he'll have the same production. He didn't have that production with Marshall because no second receiver ever will when he's being thrown at 160+ times a season.
Brian Hartline would be successfully riding the pine in Pittsburgh and probably battling Jericho Cotchery for the honor of being the #4 receiver.
So he'd be a number 3 WR which isn't always a starter. Honestly, with all of their receivers healthy, I doubt he'd start in place of an up to speed Plaxico Burress who had 8 TD's last year in an anemic Jets offense. But hey, by your own admission, he'd be a 3-4 WR depending on your opinion of Plaxico Burress. How do you reconcile this with the idea that he should be paid as much as the Steelers's catch leader when healthy?
By my admission, he'd be there 3rd receiver. And would have a pretty sizable work load. Not one like Miami but similar. He would most likely perform the way he's been performing since he's entered the league, and would be in line for a contract averaging 5-6 million per year.
How cute. Hartline thinks he can talk about contracts. I'd just replay the deshon Goodson play over and over until is asking price became what it should be. "I caught X amount of balls this year!" *Goldson "tackle"* "I had over 1,000 yds" *goldson "tackle"* "I had a 250yd game!" *goldson "tackle"* "..."
Except for playing better than him. Hartline has the edge in that department. But hey, he looks good running on the football field. Style points!
I don't agree with that. A strength of his is gaining separation and getting open, IMO. Agree to disagree. I'm sick of discussing this. We'll see what happens.
Brian Hartline is the Jay Fiedler of WRs. He has everything but the physical talent needed to reach the next plateau. I think Philbin, likes players he can trust. I think he'd rather have a consistent 6, then a guy who is a 2 one day and a 10 another. I'd say Hartline is a consistent 5.5-6. I think you keep him until you have consistent 7s or better.
And did you read the article? Very early it refers to "late in the 49ers game". So yeah, context is only sort of important. Ah yes, that's a perfectly valid reason to disqualify any actual fact-based argument. "Everyone says..."! Of course they do. How convenient. I guess we don't really need to engage in any sort of fact-based discussion based on empirical evidence. You missed "dynamic" on the empty buzzwords worksheet. You got synergy earlier, didn't you? Hartline isn't great, but factually Davone Bess is quite good at making tacklers miss, regardless of your emotions.
