In Hindsight do you still trade Marshall for Eggnew and a 3rd rounder?

I'm in the same group as a few others have said.

I'm ok with the trade of Brandon Marshall, although I hate trading away your most talented player on offense. I'm ok with it, had they brought someone else in. In my mind, that trade should have been made with another to be made afterwards. While Brian Hartline and Davone Bess have maxed themselves out this year, it's clear the Dolphins need big play threats. While Brian Hartline can provide that time to time, that play he didn't make yesterday really quantifies what we need.

 

Well "Pete" is working with a handicap here....he's trying to convince people of Bshnit. Section has an obvious point to argue. Poor Pete no matter how uphill the battle is, still keeps his legs moving.

 

Yeah, but who exactly do you pick up?

In practice, it's basically Vincent Jackson or nothing. Do you outbid the Buccaneers for Vincent Jackson? Do you wanna pay that kind of money for a guy who has spent time in jail and been suspended by the league because he can't stop drunk driving and bring him to a place where drunk driving is basically a hobby for upper class young people?

 

Good, then maybe you can explain what Section126 is trying to say if you've got such a firm grasp of it.

 

This is pretty simple.

If we say that production-wise:
- 2012 Hartline cancels out 2011 Marshall
- 2012 Bess cancels out 2011 Bess
- ????? cancels out 2011 Hartline.

That's what Section is saying, correct?

Then basically that means we didn't miss Marshall production-wise as a team except for the production Hartline gave us last year: which was 35 catches for 549 yrds and 1 TD.

That means we got 2x3rd picks for a loss of 35 catches for 549 yrds and 1 TD....which is clearly a win in our column.

 

Something the coach said : Philbin today on Tannehill's play yesterday: "There wasn’t as much separations in the route running that we need" .... maybe that is on 17 too ...?

 

This is the only angle people need to focus on.
Marshall's character and actions got him shipped out of Miami not his ability.

It cracked me up the storm of "is Marshall really a talented WR" arguments that raged out of control after that trade.
One poster even going as far to say that a rookie WR could easily replace him and went further to state that Egnew would match Marshall's numbers from last year! How's that going?

Marshall would still be here and he'd be producing.
That said, his real issue of being a head case got him sent packing.
End of story.
I don't blame Philbin to sticking to his guns at all but it did downgrade the team.

 

He's trying to say having Brandon Marshall as a WR is a good thing. Seems silly to argue if you ask me.

Tune in next week when we debate if 2+2=4.

 

I'm not even saying that Section126 is correct in thinking the Dolphins shouldn't have traded away Marshall. That's certainly debatable.

But arguing the Dolphins have replaced his production and/or presence is just plain wrong. The logic that was being bandied about by both sides was very different. One made sense, and the other made none. That's all I'm saying. Perhaps Disgustipate would be doing better in the argument if he were arguing different points.

 

But yeah, the argument in question? Not very good. Brandon Marshall is a very talented wide receiver, and the overall "talent" level is higher with him on the roster, but functionally that's all you were getting out of it. Getting a guy who is going to go to a Pro Bowl and be talked out by the announcers over and over is not helpful, it is not meaningful, and does not make the team more successful. Brandon Marshall in a vacuum is a great player, he was not a great player, nor was he likely to be in the future a great player here.

Brandon Marshall is one of the few receivers who draws heavy designed double teams(ie not running into a deep zone while man covered), but it didn't do **** for the offense. The most direct correlation- The ability of his peers to exploit coverage- Was functionally non existent. Davone Bess and Brian Hartline are much more productive, and much more efficient without Brandon Marshall than with him. This is pretty much an undeniable fact.

It's also pretty undeniable that Davone Bess and Brian Hartline will come close to matching the production from Marshall/Hartline/Bess from the year before. That is inherently more efficient. Section126, for some bizarre reason decided that their stats through 13 games was comparable to the three the year before through 16, but functionally the gap is unlikely to be very big.

It is not more yardage, and you have less talented players, but you are using them more efficiently, and in the future you have the ability to continue to do so. With Brandon Marshall you did not, and do not have that. You have the ability to expand and be more efficient, and find someone who is going to dominate your offensive workload to the point of crowding everyone else out to produce 1100-1200 yards.

 

Do you have stats that suggest so? Do you have undeniable proof that 2 + 2 = 4??

Linky???

 

Your right. It's 5....

--Pete

 

2+2 could equal 12

 

As I said in my rant, you do not trade the best players in the league, in their prime. You work around them, out smart them, get them to buy in.

Parcells had his hands filled with LT, but he wasn't about to pawn the guy off. Blacmon, Crabtree, Bryant, all the top prospects from the past few years cannot touch Brandon Marshall, and neither will this years top guys. There is no replacing him.

You want to argue about Marshall and production and what Tannehill is doing versus what Moore did with BM and all this nonsense? Its a joke. We won what we won and scored what we scored. You can't rationalize football on a calculator. You can think you can if you never played on any level, but thats not how the game works. Brandon Marshall would have been so ridiculously good for RT its a joke...instead of looking for Marlon Moore with the game on the line. Looking for somebody, anybody, to make a play. It would have been Philbin's job to get him in line and keep him productive. You quit on a guy like this? He's one of the best WRs this generation. We will not replace him. It's not on the todo list because unless we trade for Calvin Johnson, it's simply not possible.

 

Here is the proof:

 

If we were the first team to let him walk because of him being a world class *******, you'd have a point. How long until you think he makes it to three?

 

We will see. I'd have liked Philbin to at least take a shot at coaching him.

 

Don't think Philbin wanted to.

 

He don't want to be 5-8 either.

 

I was never in favor of trading him to begin with. It was just another example of the abject stupidity of our front office.

 

I don't think there's a lot of chance Philbin wasn't involved in the decision to trade him. He's not going to want a cancerous *******, and he's not going to want a guy who needs to be fed the ball to be effective.

 

You are on the right track. But it is a little more complicated than that.

The best way to to explain is is to use my baseball analogy. It is harder to maintain the same production with more producers. Simple sports fact.

Fact is that Bess and Hartline were pretty much the same while Marshall's production is Missing. This is elementary statistical analysis.

 

If you trade Brandon Marshall.....you replace him, or at least TRY to replace him. You don't sign a flame out from a team with the same record as you (Legolan Nanneenee) You don't replace him with Marlon Moore. You don't replace him with Anthony Fasano or Chad Johnson.

If you can't adequelty replace his production, what he does for our offense, what he does to the opponents defense, then you don't trade him. Period. And if you do, you make someone severly over pay for him, someone desperate. You don't trade him for 2 3rd round picks. It's ****ing insane to me.

This is 2012 NFL, you win by throwing the football.... A LOT...so when you have the PLEASURE of having a dominate WR like Brandon Marshall, you try to keep him, you don't give him away without replacement.

Now, we are where we were with the QB position for years. We will flip rocks, try on 4th round "hope so's" and free agent cast offs.

We need a GM that places a bigger grade on dominant WRs. Ireland is not that guy. For our sake, for the Dolphins sake, for Philbin and Tannehills sake....we need to upgrade WR desperatley.

 

But they aren't pretty much the same. Hartline far exceeded his output and Bess is outpacing himself.

Regardless, you still have to account for the inferior Hartline producing similarly as the all-world greatest WR of our generation, Brandon Marshall. That shouldn't happen if BMarsh is as great as so many have said.

 

The maddening part is that when they traded him, my initial thought was "this is a mistake"..but I immediately waited for the next domino to fall....It never did. ****ty GM's do things like that, and waste a year off of the Football Lives of Wake, Long, etc...

 

Can't we say Hartline is growing every year and getting better? It's safe to say he would be as good if not better, with Marshall taking the safety help and #1 corner away from him no?

 

Again, that's not true. We did replace his production. We didn't replace 2011 Brian Hartline's production. We gained 2x3rd picks for 35 catches for 549 yrds and 1 TD. There is no way that's not a win for us.

 

Two points.

1) Hartline and Bess are not exceeding their outputs from 11'.

2) Hartline has not produced in 12' nowhere near what Marshall produced in 11'.

You have to move away from rudimentary statistics such as yards and catches. Remember, if that is all that we care about, my Marshall argument looks much better.

 

I remember when Marshall was first traded, and a lot of people said it was because of his offseason arrest, and that he'd probably be suspended for part of the season anyway. Now the narrative has changed.

 

Those are numbers. You aren't taking into consideration maybe we have a better offense and better qb, meaning Marshall would've had even more production in this offense? If bess and hartline got better with this staff then you must assume Marshall would have as well.

 

Yeah..now the narrative is that 120 catches, 1,500 yards and 11 touchdowns don't matter anymore.

 

We don't have a WR that has multiple TDs. Thats embarassing.

 

No, because it doesn't really stand up to anything. The problem with our offense has been that Marshall's production here was not as good as people assume it was. Hartline's is no better. Keeping Marshall when we need better production than he was giving us, makes no sense because of the cost and headaches he caused.

Marshall is a gunslinger's WR. He thrives with Cutler (and really no else so far) or he'd be great with a Favre or even Marino. Problem is, we haven't had a gunslinger since Marino. Regardless of what Section says, Hartline is producing about the same as Marshall, that's because Hartline is closer to being right for this offense than Marshall is.

 

Yup. "Hey, two 3rd Round picks for a guy making that much money and will be suspended anyway is pretty good" *fast forward to now* "Our WR's are more efficient without him!"

 

If Marshall had produced anything near that while here, we'd have a different story.

 

Our FB has more catches than our #3 WR. THAT'S embarrassing.

 

Marshall had 9 tds here in 2 seasons. Hartline has 6 in his 4 year career. And Hartline has 5 less Tds than Marshalls last season here.......so no.....no he isnt producing the same.

 

How can you even say either one of those points with a straight face?

And no it wouldn't. The stats are similar. The other stuff without the stats, like offense overall, team chemistry, W-L, etc. all play out in favor of a team without Marshall.

 

This is what you posted:

1703 yards is the combined number of Brian Hartline and Davone Bess' yardage through 13 games this season. You didn't average anything. That's called adding.

If you averaged the per-game production of those two players, and then extrapolated it over 16 games, you'd get 2096 yards.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

 

You don't need a straight face to say that. Just a calculator that works.