Has the Defense ever stepped up to when it mattered most in the past 15 years?

If I mischaracterized your stance, my bad. Considering how you held the idea Vernon was a bad pass rusher so early, and your habit of taking long positions well before you've got any grounds to do so for Lord knows what reason, I'm pretty sure I'm not unjustified.

 

They are counted in PFF's pressures. I'm going off their passing numbers not the defensive numbers. Tom Brady had 44 dropbacks and was pressured on 13 of them, with 4 of those 13 going down as a sack.

League average pressures are 31.5% of dropbacks. The Dolphins' 29.5% against the Patriots approximated the league average.

It just seems like all of it points to "average" (including PFF's ranking the Dolphins #17 of 32 in "Pass Rush") and when you've got arguably the second best pass rusher in football then you should probably be a good bit above average. The rest of your guys have to be pretty dull in order for that to happen, no?

 

That does seem like a good hypothesis. What was the pressure breakdown for the game?

I know Wake had only 1 sack, so three of the pressures were someone else. That leaves 9 more pressures. If Wake had 4 or more of those pressures, then I agree. Which would give wake 5 of the 13 pressures.

I never said that the pass rush was great, however I do still contend that it wasn't the problem against the Patriots.

 

According to the PFF data, Cameron Wake was in on 6 of the 13 pass plays in which Tom Brady was pressured.

I know this, based on my first viewing of the game I thought two of the four sacks were coverage sacks. The one where Cam Wake got him looked like a great pass rush (as usual for him), and the one where Reshad Jones got him was also a nice double safety blitz where both safeties got to Brady right away. But the one where Paul Soliai got Brady I thought was one where Brady had to pull down the ball after taking a while in the pocket and not finding anyone open, and the Koa Misi sack was the same. As I recall, Hernandez botched his route and that was the one Brady wanted, he pulled the ball down and slid right into Koa Misi who had until that point been blocked pretty well by the tackle.

 

No. The Dolphins had 17 pressures (5 sacks, 5 QB hits and 7 QB hurries) in those 44 attempts. A sack is not also counted as a QB hit and a QB hurry. 17/44=38.6%. That is approximately a 50% higher incidence of pressure than Brady's season average. There can be some overlap in that PFF will credit two players with a sack when the league might only give them each a half sack, but that difference is irrelevant when comparing PFF stats for the season to PFF stats for that game.

 

This is incorrect. You need to re-check your numbers. You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

No. I'm pretty confident 5 + 5 + 7 = 17. I'm similarly confident that 17/44=.386 = 38.6%.

Sacks are not also counted as hurries or QB hits. That's why Soliai and Jones were credited with sacks but no hurries or hits.

On their play counts, PFF has Brady down for 46 pass plays, not 44. But even if that is the case (and I'm not sure where the other 2 come from since he had 40 pass attempts and was sacked 4 times), it only reduces the pressure percentage to 36.9%, which is still much higher than what Brady typically faces.

 

Well, first off, you're completely wrong. Whether that's blatant academic dishonesty or just academic negligence, I'm not really sure. You willingly quoted the 120 out of 482 number (24.9%) as the denominator in your premium for how much more the Dolphins pressured Tom Brady than his average opponent, and you very casually glazed over the differences between a statistic that tallies plays under pressure versus a statistic that tallies players that get pressure. That doesn't look good if you're trying to cop a plea to just academic negligence instead of dishonesty.

The fact of the matter is you're comparing apples to oranges. As you so quickly noted-and-dismissed, multiple players can get a pressure on a single play. This is why Tom Brady was pressured on 13 plays (out of 44 drop backs, according to PFF), whereas if you looked at the defensive players' stats then they have 5 sacks, 5 hits and 7 pressures (which comes out to 17). It is therefore curious that you would quote a season long play count and then compare it to the defensive player pressure tallies, knowing that the former is always going to have a downward bias relative to the latter.

I don't particularly mind whether you quote one or the other because the point remains either way. I would just (personally) prefer you not misconstrue the numbers by relating apples to oranges in order to give a bigger number to make your point. Call me crazy.

If you want to compare apples to apples then you could say the Dolphins pressured Tom Brady on 13 out of 44 plays (pressure on 29.5% of plays) versus his full season tally of 120 out of 482 plays (pressure on 24.9% of plays).

Or, if you want to compare apples to apples then you could say the Dolphins defensive players tallied 17 pressures on 44 plays (0.386 defensive players providing pressure per play) versus a full season tally of 160 pressures tallied by defensive players that provided pressure on 482 plays (0.332 defensive players providing pressure per play).

 

Here is black and white objective evidence clearly pointing out that outside of Cam Wake, we're much worse than the league average at rushing the passer.

If Cam Wake was PFF's 5th or 6th rated DE rather than #2, I'm assuming the Dolphins would rank somewhere in the 20's.

With this alone, it's easy to see that we need someone more suited to rush the passer from RDE rather than Odrick. It's beyond a luxury. It's a need looking at those numbers.

 

Well I would need to see the league average with their best defensive pass rusher removed.

 

I'm not sure why. Having the best pass rusher in the league and the Dolphins are in the bottom half in the league in overall pass rush stats.

It means we'll fall even further than most teams when we take away our best pass rusher (Wake)

 

I wouldn't necessarily call it "objective" or "black and white" as you put it. The ratings are subjective. They're doing the same thing everyone else would be doing (watching players play and making a call on how good they played), however I will at least say this about PFF's ratings...they're thorough.

I think if you wanted something "objective" then you'd probably look at the rate (pass rush snaps per pressure play) at which Cameron Wake gets to the passer (hovering around 6x I believe) versus the rate at which all other DLs (and LBs) get to the passer...and then compare that around the league with other #1 rushers. The guys around a good #1 rusher are going to have better pass rush numbers because of the success of that guy. For example Koa Misi got to the passer once every 7.9 pass rushes back in his rookie year, which would make him one of the most effective pass rushers in football. We know that's not really true though, was more a function of Cam Wake's getting to the passer once every 6.7 times. So all across the league disparity in effectiveness between those #1 rushers and the rest of their DLs are going to tend toward being tight. But without calculating the numbers, I bet in Miami the disparity is wider.

 

In 2010 Cameron Wake got 66 pressure plays on 440 rushes (6.67x). The rest of his DLs & LBs got 153 pressure plays on 1,929 rushes (12.61x). That's a disparity of 5.94x.

In 2011 Cameron Wake got 81 pressure plays on 519 rushes (6.41x). The rest of his DLs & LBs got 178 pressure plays on 2,355 rushes (13.23x). That's a disparity of 6.82x.

In 2012 Cameron Wake got 70 pressure plays on 442 rushes (6.31x). The rest of his DLs & LBs got 134 pressure plays on 1,905 rushes (14.22x). That's a disparity of 7.91x.

So...since Cameron Wake took over full time as a pass rusher, he's never been more effective at getting to the quarterback, yet he's got the least amount of help from his teammates in the front seven that he's ever gotten.

 

I could see a theoretical objection made to the way I've calculated it as a ratio of snaps-to-pressures. A more standardized number could be called for (percentage, e.g.).

In that case the numbers would change as follows:

2010: Cameron Wake 15.00%, Teammates 7.93%, Disparity -7.07%.
2011: Cameron Wake 15.61%, Teammates 7.56%, Disparity -8.05%.
2012: Cameron Wake 15.84%, Teammates 7.03%, Disparity -8.81%.

Conceptually, the very idea of using the disparity instead of just measuring how successful the people around him are...is up for debate. I have no statistical evidence that the disparity is statistically informative. I was just spitballing an idea. But either way it's clear the people around Cameron Wake have never been so ineffective at getting to the quarterback since he took over in 2010.

For example, Von Miller's percentage is an astounding 18.80% (69 pressures on 367 rushes). Fittingly, the folks at PFF have given Von a significantly higher Rush rating than even Cam Wake. While his teammates' percentage is 7.39% (134 pressures on 1814 rushes), Von's higher success rate than Cam does make the disparity (-11.41%) wider. In the interest of full disclosure.

 

For another example, John Abraham's percentage is 14.24% (46/323) versus his teammates' 6.90% (108/1566). His front seven teammates aren't as effective rushing the passer as Miami's, however he's not as effective either and so his disparity is lower at -7.34%. The reason you'd wonder about the disparity and not just the absolute numbers is just because while John Abraham can claim that his teammates aren't helping him out very much, his teammates can also claim he's not helping them out as much as a Cameron Wake. For Aldon Smith, his percentage is 13.42% (53/395) versus his teammates 7.49% (118/1576). The disparity there would be -5.93%, so the argument would be the 49ers give Aldon Smith a lot more help than the Dolphins give Cam Wake.

The argument against the disparity figure would be that it's so levered toward whatever the percentage is for the pass rusher in question, that it's not really telling you much about the players around that player.

 

It's hardly black and white evidence -- PFF's team pass rush rankings are subjective rankings and not simple quantitative stats. And again, there isn't much reason to exclude Cam Wake since he is very much a part of this team and very clearly plays into what this team's needs are and aren't.

 

Enough with the personal attacks and accusations. It's childish and there is no reason for it.

The point remains, as you acknowledge, that the Dolphins did a better job of pressuring Brady than most other teams. That supports the argument that the Dolphins pass rush is better than the league average, which undermines the idea that another pass rusher is one of this team's biggest needs. Your successive posts further indicate that Wake's supporting cast has been roughly as effective rushing the passer as the supporting casts for Abraham in Atlanta and Miller in Denver.

 

It's a personal attack to merely point out that you were jimmying the statistics for effect? Ok. It wasn't a judgment on your character, it was a mere statement of fact, you were jimmying the statistics for effect. Whether accidentally or on purpose, I don't know and I said I didn't know.

The Dolphins' pressure percentage against the Patriots was marginally higher than the Patriots' season long percentage and significantly lower than the percentage achieved by the Jets the week before. The Jets are widely agreed to have a pass rush problem. This is why I said that on the small sample size, the marginal difference is not statistically significant.

Also I'm not sure you can claim that the Dolphins' surrounding cast has been as effective at accumulating pressures as that of the Broncos. I think in this case you might be lacking a good grip on the variance in that percentage across the league. Again that's not a dig or a personal attack.

The PFF ratings certainly don't point to the Dolphins overall pass rush being above average. They point to it being average. Maybe average is good enough for you, but average isn't good enough for me if we want the defense to be elite.

 

ve

I wasn't jimmying anything. I didn't see where PFF had the overall defense numbers on a game by game basis. And your accusation of "dishonesty" or "negligence" was absolutely personal. Had this been the first time you have done that there might have been some question about. Since you have made those kind of attacks on numerous occasions in the past, there really is no question about it.

Sure, we'd like every unit on this team to be elite. But that's not realistic. No team has elite units across the board. If all of your other units are elite and you have any one that is average, then sure, make that unit an offseason priority. If you have a bunch of weak units, the average one is logically your lowest offseason priority. If your average unit has young promising players that you can expect to improve, it is even less of a priority. But I love pass rush, so if the next LT, Reggie white or Bruce smith is available, by all means let's get him.

 

A lot of them did. But that doesn't mean we couldn't get pressure. We got pressure, we just didn't finish. Not sure where you are going with this. Are you suggesting we should try to apply less pressure so that QBs are less likely to flee the pocket and make big plays with their feet?

 

Again, I'm not sure if you're being serious about yesterday.

 

I think you're ignoring the point I've been making about the pass rush unit outside of Cameron Wake. The point is they've already done 90% of the work they need to do to make an elite pass rush unit just by gathering the likes of Cameron Wake, Randy Starks and even to a degree Jared Odrick. They especially already did the hard part in finding Cameron Wake. But it should not be difficult to find pass rushers to complement them that are more effective than Jared Odrick (at end), Olivier Vernon (at end) and Koa Misi. Getting a guy better than them is low-hanging fruit, yet it would make the defense better by unlocking the potential of a Jared Odrick as an interior pass rusher and keeping Randy Starks more fresh. It's a win all the way around, and it's not that hard unless you don't try.

In short, with Cameron Wake in the arsenal it should be easy to have a far better than average overall pass rush. Having an average pass rush despite having Cameron Wake in there means you're not really trying that hard, or you're not really trying that smart, one or the other.

 

A lot of good. Pressure without actually getting the sack causes incompletions, interceptions, etc. That's why most people are quick to say that sacks aren't the only measure of pass rush success. You seem to be saying that only the sacks matter. I don't agree, but if that is the case, then the Dolphins are doing pretty good, as they are in the top 10 in sacks.

 

If it's low hanging fruit, then the team doesn't need to use a high pick or a lot of cap money to sign a pass rusher in FA. I'm all for getting a great pass rusher (or even just a good one) on the cheap. Who wouldn't be? I'm even fine with using a high pick on one if it is the BPA. But most of the griping about the pass rush seems to be suggesting that it should be one of the teams top offseason priorities, i.e., that we need to use a premium pick or make a big splash in FA.

And, as you know very well, sometimes that fruit that looks low hanging isn't. Your preferred pick in 2010, Jerry Hughes, has 5 sacks in 3 seasons. Your guy in 2008, Glenn Dorsey, has 4 sacks in 5 seasons. I remember you loved Jarron Gilbert in 2009 and he's still waiting for his first NFL sack 4 years later. Finding good pass rushers isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

 

Who's arguing that the defense did a good job when it loses contain and let's the QB run for big yardage? I know I'm not.

 

Jerry Hughes was a guy I liked and I notice that now that his coaches are giving him a chance by taking Mathis and Freeney off the field, he's actually doing very well in Indianapolis. Glenn Dorsey was a defensive tackle. To start talking about him as if I viewed him as a pass rusher is just more of the same dishonesty that you seem to love displaying but don't seem to like being called on. Just like earlier in the thread when you tried to blatantly manipulate the stats in order to make your point look good. The same as pretending that those guys are the ONLY players I liked, and presenting them one-sided. For example, I also really, really liked Chris Long in the 2008 Draft, so much so that I would've loved seeing him taken at #1 overall. Simultaneously, I hated Vernon Gholston whom many were talking about as the guy that the Dolphins should consider at #1 overall if they want a pass rusher. But I notice you left them out of the picture. Probably because Chris Long has too many sacks and Vernon Gholston not enough.

 

LOL. So in his third season, Hughes has finally gotten on the field and has produced 4 sacks and he's some kind of great success story? He has a career PRP of 9.0. As an undrafted rookie, Derrick Shelby has a PRP of 9.4. So you woulld have used a high first round pick on a guy who did nothing for his first two seasons and is still no better than Derrick Shelby, who Ireland got as a UDFA, is doing as a rookie. That's comedy gold.

You are on record at the time as saying the Dolphins should have taken Glenn Dorsey No. 1 overall in 2008. If your position now is that DTs aren't part of the pass rushing supporting cast, well then that's just ridiculous. Simply ridiculous. However, it might be a little less ridiculous than your apparent position that you viewed Dorsey as not just worthy of the No. 1 overall pick, but the guy you would have taken for the dolphins No. 1 overall, if you viewed him as strictly a run stopper.

It is funny that you want to claim credit for "liking" Chris Long too. I'm sure every GM, including Jeff Ireland, "liked" Chris Long. What was not to like? But GMs are evaluated not on who they like, but who they pick. They are held accountable for their decisions, not their "like list." And you are on record as saying you would not have actually picked Chris Long. Or Jake Long. Or Matt Ryan. You would have picked Glenn Dorsey. LOL I didn't say anything about Vernon Gholston because, well, why would I? Nobody was seriously suggesting the Dolphins should take him No. 1 overall. A lot of people believed he had bust written all over him. And the truth is that you didn't really hate Gholston, you just didn't like him at No. 1. But you indicated that you still had him in your top 10-15:

http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...-Review-(Draft-Picks-Only)&highlight=gholston

You really think you deserve some kind of special credit for not liking Vernon Gholston for No. 1 overall? And as indicated in the link above, you also loved Philip Merling as a pass rusher. How has he turned out as a pass rusher?

 

This is just more typical spin and one-sided dishonesty. It doesn't even make sense. I loved and gushed about Chris Long for months on this forum and elsewhere, but I don't get credit for liking him because "everyone" liked him. Oh, but I do get the criticism for liking Glenn Dorsey (who by the way is and has been a pretty good football player), despite the fact that most everyone liked him as well. Riiiiight.

What's the common factor in those two contradictory positions? Personal attack on me.

Sort of like quoting the line you quoted about Gholston without quoting the IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING sentence:

LOL.

Give it a rest. Your constantly endeavoring on these smear crusades wherein you quote things I either never said, or purposely quote things out of context, is just childish. It doesn't add to discussion and it's rarely relevant. It just amounts to an off topic personal attack which you'll use any excuse to levy.

 

There is no spin or dishonesty involved. You said you would have picked Dorsey No. 1 overall. The criticism isn't for liking him (as you note, lots of people liked him), but for making it clear that you would have taken him No. 1 overall ahead of Jake Long, Chris Long and Matt Ryan, etc. Again, GMs (and wannabe GMs) aren't judged by who they like but by who they take (or would have taken). It's not a personal attack, just holding you accountable for your spin and contradictory statements. Like saying now that you "hated Vernon Gholston" when your statement then was that you just didn't "particularly like" him but still had him in your Top 10-15. Or like saying that finding good pass rushers is easy, low hanging fruit, but your own "record" is replete with DLs and edge rushing LBs who you would have taken very high and who have not been very productive pass rushers.

I haven't quoted anything you never said nor have I quoted out of context. in fact, I linked to your statement to ensure that the entire context would be available to anyone interested. It's not a personal attack, nor is it off-topic. The topic has been pass rushers and how easy/hard it is to find good ones. You take the position now that good ones are easy to find low hanging fruit. I pointed out that it is not so easy and pass rushers are easily missed on, as your own experience/history shows. It's not personal. Everyone misses on players from time to time.

 

You know what I'm noticing Trav...that's what playmakers do, to all teams, We need to figure out a way as to how we're going to defend it if we ever want to win a championship, especially with guys like Luck, RG, Wilson, CKap, Roth, Rodgers in the league for the next 8 years.

 

Just more of the same here. So you quote the "didn't particularly like" part, while leaving out the "I've nailed him up on the cross many times" part. Interesting.

The entire endeavor to where you feel you have to "hold me accountable" for my history of which players I liked and didn't like IS a personal attack, especially the manner in which you constantly spin statements, quote them out of context, misconstrue opinions, etc. That's what you don't get. It's off topic. Nowhere in this discussion was there a claim by me that I would easily pick players better than Jeff Ireland, or any reference to my record of liking or not liking players. It was something YOU brought up, and then laughably since you brought it up as a topic of discussion you now say it's on topic.

And when you say "it's not personal" that is just as laughable. You've done this at least half a dozen times, like a politician looking for an opening to pivot a topic. It's like answering a question about foreign policy by talking about taxes. We're talking about Jeff Ireland and whether he's a good general manager relative to other general managers? Oh let's discuss YOUR history then, because that's perfectly on topic, right? (or not, since I'm not nor have I ever been a general manager). We're discussing a theory of whether having an average pass rush despite having the 2nd best pass rusher in the NFL at your disposal means that the front office isn't trying hard or smart enough? Oh of course that OBVIOUSLY means we should discuss an individual poster's 5 year old opinion about defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey.

Yeah. Perfectly on topic. LMFAO.

Your entire rationale boils down to "You are wrong about (whatever you're talking about) because you've been wrong about draft picks in the past". It's stupid, childish, off topic and a personal attack. You should be better than that.

 

True. Most of the young QBs coming out are very athletic and can hurt you with their feet. Tannehill can do that too and seems to be starting to realize it (or be more willing to do it). There are only a handful of QBs in the league who can't or won't hurt you with their feet and most of those guys will be retired in 5 years or so. But every other team faces the same problem of how to deal with those athletic QBs.

 

You had already posted the "nailed up on the cross" part, so there was no reason for me to repeat it. But its a pretty soft nail and pretty cozy cross if you still had him in your top 10-15.

Nonsense. Here's what you said just a few posts up:

The clear implication was that Ireland either hasn't tried very to find good pass rushers or hasn't been very smart about it. Either way, it would be a clear indictment of a GM if that were true. By saying it is easy, low hanging fruit and all you need to do is try or be smart, you were clearly suggesting that you could and would do better.

Earlier in the thread you said:

Clearly, your characterization of the guys Ireland picked as "not competent" pass rushers was a criticism of him. You similarly made it clear that you think you could do much better because its "low hanging fruit."

Yes, I have tried to hold you accountable for your past opinions and positions when you have made statements that directly contradict those past opinions and positions and do it with an astonishing level of arrogance and dismissiveness. Confronting someone with their own contradictory statements is the most time honored and effective method of impeachment. So when the discussion has been about your vitriolic criticism of Jeff Ireland's draft history, confronting you with the fact that you would have picked the same player (e.g., Merling) or someone infinitely worse (e.g., Dorsey v. JLong) or someone who would have still been available several rounds later (e.g., Mallett), etc. has been entirely appropriate and on-topic.

Not at all. On the current topic, my rationale is that good pass rushers are hard to find, not low hanging fruit, and I've pointed out that you should know that as well as anyone in light of your history re: pass rushers (e.g., Dorsey (yes, he does count as a pass rusher, especially when the topic of discussion is complementary pass rushers), Merling, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Graham, Jarron Gilbert, etc.). As I said, everyone misses on some draft picks. It's nothing personal to point that out and it's not a criticism of your player evaluation skills because it happens to everyone. But the fact that you are on record as saying you would have taken so many DLs/pass rushers in the first round who haven't been very good pass rushers does undermine your argument that good pass rushers are easy to find as long as you try and/or are smart.

And you don't know me at all. You certainly have no basis to comment on my ethics. And your accusation that I lack them is a direct personal attack that is not supposed to be tolerated on this board.

 

I already posted the "didn't particularly like" part as well but I notice you had no problem repeating that phrase while editing out the phrase that would make your argument look worse.

This is where your logic falls to dust. Never said that. Didn't bring it up. Didn't even imply it. Therefore yes you're going completely off-topic.

An evaluation of a player is not necessarily a criticism of someone who liked him enough to pick him. Again, this is where your logic crumbles in on itself. If I point out what a great football player Calvin Johnson turned out to be, does that mean I believe Matt Millen is a good GM? No. Separate topics.

And this is what really shows your true motivations here, because your rationale is just plain off. Tell me, if someone on here points out that Manny Wright is lazy, overweight and a bad football player, is it on topic to respond to that poster that he's fat and has never played football a day in his life so what does he know about it? Absolutely not. It's off topic, and it brings the level of the discussion to the person. The laughable lunacy of your argument here is you clearly hold me to a different standard than other people, and then try and pretend "it's not personal". By your own rationale, every time someone says anything about the job Jeff Ireland's doing as a GM (bad OR good) that necessitates a discussion about whether that poster has been right or wrong about players and football topics in the past. This is a fallacy.

And here you've done a number of things. For one you've misconstrued my argument, which was that it should be easy to find COMPETENT pass rushers that are better at rushing the passer than Jared Odrick (at end) and Olivier Vernon (at end). Jerry Hughes and Brandon Graham are great examples of this spin. Why? Because you'd take either one of those guys right now rushing the passer on passing downs over Olivier Vernon or Jared Odrick. They've got the numbers to prove it. Brandon Graham has a +21.5 overall PFF rating this year, +18.6 of it being Pass Rush, and and Jerry Hughes has a +3.5 Pass Rush rating. The two of them together have 54 pressures/hits/sacks on 341 pass rush snaps. That's getting to the quarterback even more often than Cameron Wake gets to the quarterback.

Yet you cite them "misses" of mine that show...well, what I have no idea. Show that getting a "competent" pass rusher (which was the standard I explicitly laid down) is not relatively easy? How does that show that? How does a foray into my opinions of past players show in any way whether or not it should be relatively easy for real teams and real GMs to find "competent" pass rushers? But anyway what's interesting is that you cited them at all, because that's a way to subtly raise the bar from "competent" which is what I explicitly said, to me saying that it's low-hanging fruit to find really good pass rushers that everyone recognizes as great players. Suddenly I'm saying it's low-hanging fruit to find a Robert Mathis or John Abraham.

Wow, if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.

 

I didn't edit anything out. Your story earlier today was that you "hated Vernon Gholston." I pointed out that at the time you said you didn't "particularly like" him but that he was still in your Top 10-15, which is a far cry from "hating" him. You added that you had also said that you had "nailed him to the cross" back then, a statement that was included in the link that I included for context. No, I didn't particularly quote that phrase nor did I particularly quote many of the other 13,654 words in the link. Because they were in the link. So, is the record straight then in your eyes that in 2008 you "didn't particularly" Gholston and had "nailed him to the cross many times" but still had him in your Top 10-15, but now claim that you "hated" him?

Here we can agree to disagree. You characterized the guys Ireland picked as "not competent." You said finding good pass rushers is "low hanging fruit" and easy to do as long as you try to find them or try smart. It is very much in a GM's job responsibilities to try to find good players, including pass rushers, and to be smart about it. But, no, you didn't say or imply that you could or would do a better job of finding the low hanging fruit that Ireland either failed to find because he didn't bother to try to find it or because he was just too stupid to find it? Seriously?

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here. It is gibberish and unrelated to anything I said. The relevance of Calvin Johnson and Matt Millen is what?

Again, the Manny Wright example you concocted here has nothign to do with anything I said ro that anyone on this board said. Not every criticism of what Ireland has done brings up what that poster's general history has been. But when someone criticizes Ireland for a pick that person said he would have made himself, pointing that out as hypocritical is relevant. When someone critizes a pick as a bad one, but the player that person is on record saying he would have picked is 141 times worse, pointing that out is relevant to question the credibility and knowledge of the person. And I don't hold you to any different standard than anyone else. If anyone else makes statements that so clearly contradicts what they have said in the past, I call them out on that. Nobody else does that with anywhere near the frequency or arrogance with which you do it, so you probably don't notice when I call others out for the same stuff.

It's convenient that those guys are in their 3rd year and are still only part-time players who did virtually nothing for their first 2 seasons and you are citing their part-time stats for their partial 3rd season. And although they were 1st round picks, they are still only occasional starters who have combined for just two more sacks over their careers (11) than sacks than Odrick (9) or Misi (9) have on their own. And as pointed out, rookie UDFA Derrick Shelby has a better PRP than Hughes does as a 3rd year former 1st round pick.

I cited them to show that good pass rushers (or what you term "competent") are not so easy to find. There are a lot of misses on them. Not just by you, but by a lot of teams. And I never said you said it was low hanging fruit to find a Robert Mathis or John Abraham. That's a strawman.

I haven't made a personal attack. I haven't questioned or ethics (or downright alleged that you lack them, as you have). I haven't accused you of "dishonesty" (as you have to me). I haven't accused you of negligence (as you have to me). What I have done is pointed out that what you are saying now contradicts what you have said in the past. I understand that you don't like that. Who would? But that is not a personal attack.

 

No, not successful. We got pressure, but it obviously isn't successful if the QB runs for 15 yards.

 

When you do an amateur fantasy version of what Jeff Ireland does, and are very critical of the quality of the job he's done, your track record is fair game.

 

Yes that's correct. Directionally, compared with the rest of the market, I was very down on Vernon Gholston and my rankings relative to everyone else virtually assured that I would not have drafted him. He was often stated as equivalent or superior to Chris Long and I argued very strongly for that being false. In the end, I didn't have the conviction to take a guy universally-hailed as one of the top 7 talents in that draft, out of my 1st round. It's something I regret. I have since learned to be more confident in my convictions.

I characterized two players' PASS RUSHING FROM THE END POSITION as "not competent". Again with your serial misrepresentation of what I say. Also, you say "the guys Ireland picked". What does that have to do with an evaluation of their talent?

Yes seriously. I never made that claim.

Tell me, when someone makes a statement about a receiver that dropped a football and says that they should catch the ball because that's their job...are they implying that THEY could have personally done it? Your logic is sheer buffoonery.

What a coincidence. You've not been making any sense on this topic for a while now. It's ok, I don't expect you to get it.

Really? In what way? I think it's pretty damn relevant. A person criticizes Jeff Ireland for not doing a good job as a General Manager opens up discussion on whether that individual person would do better in the same way that a person chiding a football player for being lazy and out of shape opens up discussion on whether that individual poster is also lazy and out of shape. If one is true, so is the other. Oh, but one involves an opportunity for you to try and attack me personally and the other doesn't. I forgot.

How? In what way? If that person claims he or she would have done better with that pick, I can certainly see it. When have I said that? I'll answer for you. Never. I've pointed out myself many, many times that I wouldn't have picked Matt Ryan either. That still made it the WRONG decision.

Actually, all it is, is an off topic way to try and attack the individual poster rather than address the topic at hand. IF that person claims that he/she would have done better with the pick, that's a different story. Their claim is now on topic and free for discussion. But if not, just an observational declaration that a draft pick ended up a bad pick, is not license for individuals with vendettas to engage in off topic explorations of every little thing that person has said that ended up wrong. Especially if those crusades involve the serial misrepresentation, misquoting and out-of-context quoting that you've engaged in here and generally do engage in every time you decide that you're going to go on a CK witch hunt.

Right. How convenient. So nobody here who believes Jeff Ireland mistakes as a GM make him unfit for the job has also weighed in on any of those players in the past and ended up wrong as well. Or conversely, nobody who has lauded the job Jeff Ireland has made mistaken evaluations in the past. With all the opinions floating around here on every topic it's absolutely amazing that none of them have been wrong about anything in the past except me.

Ah here we go again. Blurring the lines between "competent" and "good" so that you can make my statement about it being easy to find more extreme. Classic.

But you didn't choose to explore any of those misses by other teams in order to show how hard it is. You chose the ad hominem attack method which was irrelevant to the topic.

The negligence or dishonesty wasn't a personal attack, it was just the truth. You want to claim it was just negligence and not dishonesty. That's fine. Doesn't change that your misrepresentation of the facts was one or the other. That's not a personal attack, that's just a statement of fact. I openly said it could be one or the other.

That was met with a declaration that I'm engaging in a "childish" personal attack, which is ironic because that in itself is a personal attack.

 

This is the charge that I don't get. Why couldn't you not like Gholston yet still have him in your top 10? He went top 10. If anything him going top 10 and then busting out only makes you right twice.

 

I don't get any of the charges to be honest. I don't get how discussion of whether the defense is underperforming and whether they could use another pass rusher turns into 40 posts exploring the nuances of everything CK said 5 years ago about Vernon Gholston and Glenn Dorsey. Call me crazy. I feel handcuffed though because everything being brought up is sheer criticism, picks I missed, etc...and I'm not bringing up picks I nailed because I don't want to further de-rail this entire thread and line of discussion. But it's happening anyway. Essentially this thread topic is now dead and the only things posted in here will now be the "What CK said five years ago" thread. And I'm supposed to buy that that's on topic and good for the forum.