Philbin looks to be a strong hire. But I don't think it irish's hire. Lots of fodder on who he really liked, while Ross believed in Philbin. And from there, is it even Irish's move to get RT? Look who's on staff here. Both scenarios were an agreement by committee at best. Sent from my iPhone
I think sometimes people argue just for the sake of arguing. Firstly, Fin-D; I never said Ireland was a failure. I said Ireland's bad rep is a carry-over from Parcells. I said that IMO the jury still out on Ireland and for me he is an average GM, and that what i'm using as my starting point from here out. Secondly, Disgustipate; That is not a pathetic response, not by any stretch. I did agree with you that there are many variable to winning other than talent. I however will always argue that everyone associated with competitive sports will ultimately always be judged based on winning or losing. You may think this is unfair, and while it may be so, it is how it is. Winning makes average people good, good people great, and great people legends. Losing makes everyone losers. Ireland might very well be a far better GM than his reputation dictates, but as long as he is not associated with a winning product, his achievements will be lessened, and his failures will be highlighted. That's the nature of things.
Ross also seems like the type that was tired of reading "The Dolphins haven't drafted a QB in the first round since" articles.. For all we know, he may have told Ireland to draft the best available QB with #8, no questions asked.
I can't speak for DPate, but I was responding to your stance that the record is what Ireland should be judged by. If that wasn't what you meant, then my bad.
Both points lack reality. One assumes that a team can intentionally lose for draft positioning, the other doesn't take in to account our 1-15 record 4 years ago and a failed QB/ coaching experiment that handcuffed the GM.
Nothing wrong with being discontent with mediocrity. Something a lot of the SFL'ers and Ireland "haters" have in common. Some refuse to accept mediocrity and others choose to defend it, or paint it a rosier picture.
No, it doesn't. This is the mistake many have made. It was never about anyone intentionally losing. It was about fans HOPING the team would lose for the betterment of the franchise. As for that "Failed QB", well, yeah. I guess someone placing the cuffs on themselves is still handcuffed.
Some refuse to accept that an organization is going to intentionally fail to draft a player that may or may not succeed. Sorry, I will never understand SFL or the idea that a team of professionals would lose intentionally over the course of an entire season, at their own expense or future in the league. That isn't a winning formula. And guess what we "lost" SFL and now have a potential franchise QB and a D that is playing well after gelling last season when we were supposed to be tanking on purpose.
I'm with you everything except drafting a RB. I would replace that with Safety and change the order up. And use free agency for one more position. Even though we have 10 picks, good drafts only get about 3 difference makers, with 10 picks we would be lucky to get 4 difference makers. That's why I say we need to go after 2 of our needs in free agency depending on how much mula we have left after signing our own players and the players we draft. I would love to have D.Bowe!
That is the exception to the rule. I've seen many people assume this team would intentionally tank for Luck. Which was completely delusional.
It wasn't about hoping that the team consciously understood the situation, and packed it it, it was simply rooting for the loss as an end result, I'm thinking that's how X was rooting...
Players would never do that, but executives can, in their own way, can interfere with a teams mindset...
I honestly can't remember anyone saying a player would. Maybe they did and I don't remember it. If someone said the players themselves would/should tank, then yes that is delusional. People are/were sick of mediocrity. Mediocrity is worse than bad, because at least with bad you can rebuild with a franchise player. That's another thing that upset myself and others, is that when this team WAS bad, they chose to draft a LT instead of a QB. Now that QB is in the midst of an MVP-type season and we're discussing whether our LT is even worth re-signing next offseason.
I wouldn't say atrotious considering we got the best center in the NFL so far this year, got a league leading RB when healthy, and a reliable LB. Wish the draft panned out better but the jury is still out on that.
Was hoping this would stay in that ONE big Jeff Ireland thread. Wasn't the the point of it? Jeff is like a disease that spreads across all threads of a message board.
5 games in, he's been here since 08, a bit premature to say one way or another. Though I do think the team is playing better then it did in 10/11
Yeah, but one win in the draft when need more players is bad. One win in the draft when you are the 49ers is fine, not when you are us. FAs are nice, but no matter how the game has changed from running to passing to whatever, the one thing that doesn't change is building through the draft. Its why perennially the teams that are always good with small down times are the Packers, the Giants & the Steelers and they rarely make big splashes in FA.
There's obviously no argument with Pouncy but Daniel Thomas is a solid RB, how would anyone know he would have 2 concussions? I am disapointed about the 2 fumbles but the concussions are just plain bad luck on a pretty decent RB. Clyde Gates was fast as hell, but every draft has its busts. Clay can turn things around but I agree he is regressing and things don't look good. And Wilson is decent. A good draft has 3 difference makers IMO, we definitely got 1 in Pouncy and I would count DT but I believe he is already being considered washed up due to nearly back to back concussions. I consider Wilson decent. And shouldn't Bush and Burnett be in this conversation?
Paraphrasing what I just said to Sumlit, can you blame Ireland for DT having concussions? I realize a couple of fumbles don't help my argument, but I would count DT as a good draft choice. 2 difference makers in 1 draft is pretty average, I would say 3 is above average.
Yeah i was only talking about the drafts in that comment. And i agree Thomas is a solid RB, but IMO he is not a 2nd round pick. I think we did not get good value out of that pick, considering we even traded up to get him.
I don't blame the certain fans throwing the hate at Ireland we've hit some rough times they want a scape goat, though I don't understand it all, but I am going to wait until next season plays out to jump on the boat because I feel it's a sinking ship with not much ballast. I see facts thrown at the group and it's like watching someone argue with a rock they don't want any positive facts to be on the table and seem to have a blind eye. I will give them one thing they stick together well. Again IMO. Haters will hate.
I don't understand why people would want a new GM. Sometimes that means a new coach and a dismantling of a team followed by another rebuilding. We could just be a year away from being in the playoffs consistently!
You are invoking an age old argument that seems like it will never die around here. When you say Ireland and He-referring to Ireland, I believe you should say Parcells, or at least Parcells/Ireland.
Point 4 and 5 are reasons why I am nuetral on Ireland, I would word it a little different and add another point or 2, but there's a lot of undeniable positive things Ireland has done as well, things you have failed to mention but other posters have in this thread. Like I said earlier in this thread, I choose to wait til after this next off season before I choose to be positive or negative on Ireland.
Actually it is a new article I wouldn't have seen it if it was in Irelands hate thread I keep away from it as much as possible thanks for posting it.
Oh not at all Deej! You have every right to give this it's own thread. I actually think a lot of people miss theese new articles entirely when they get posted on page 28 of an older thread. I just fear waking up one morning to find 7 JI threads and one thread on uniforms.
I wouldn;t switch GMs at this point. So long as the talent is being coached up, and there is progress, why destroy our fledgeling sense of stability? uproot the GM and you have a new philosophy coming to town. It changes the GM's chemtisry with the head coach. Maybe the GM wants a new head coach, his own guy. Maybe he sees the positional criteria differently and begins turning the roster over. etc etc. Forget that ****. Stability please. All the best franchises have it. So did the Raiders til Davis died. Wait, I disproved my own point.
What did I explain? That Jeff Ireland can be blamed for Daniel Thomas' concussions? Not sure I've ever said that. It would be indirect and weak I think. Daniel Thomas is to blame for his own first concussion because he has no vision. I don't know about the second concussion, though it's entirely possible the second concussion derives from the first. Generally speaking, there is an old adage in football that the best players tend to be healthier. That's not to say that their health makes them the best, but rather it's the skill that helps them stay healthy. In contact sports, the slightest mistake in movement or decision making can result in terrible injury. The ones that think and react quickest, are physically more powerful and sturdy, etc...they get hurt less. There's another saying in football that is connected with this, about how you're a lot less likely to get hurt when you're delivering the blow instead of having the blow delivered to you. Skill comes heavily into play in determining whether and how often you're the one delivering the blow versus whether and how often you're the one having the blow delivered on you. I don't blame Jeff Ireland for Daniel Thomas' injuries. I blame Jeff Ireland for Daniel Thomas not being a very good football player, and I have a suspicion that his not being a very good football player plays into how often he's getting hurt (and/or fumbling). But if you're Jeff Ireland you don't draft (or not draft) a Daniel Thomas because you have a sneaking suspicion his lack of vision or awareness will see him getting hurt a lot. If he's got an injury history that's one thing, especially at THAT posiiton. Mostly you're just looking to find a damn good football player. Unfortunately, Daniel Thomas isn't one. Last year he averaged 3.5 yards per carry while the other tailbacks averaged 4.9 yards per carry. This year he's averaging 3.1 yards per carry while the rest of the tailbacks average 5.0 yards per carry. For his career he's scored 2 touchdowns in 15 attempts inside the 10 yard line. For his career, on 3rd (or 4th) and between 1 and 2 yards to go, he averages 0.6 yards per carry.
If for no other reason, you should want Ireland here next off season because I haven't seen a realistic canidate to replace him. And if someone else took over who is to say they wouldn't start to dismantle the team and rebuild again? How much time would this person have to get on the same page with Philbin? Who's to say the new GM doesn't have his heart set on promoting another head coach? There is way to many unveriables and most of them are negative, compared to sticking with Ireland. Have you seen all the good rankings of our players, offense and defense? We aren't to far away from making the playoffs every year. That could happen as soon as a year from now. Do you really wanna get rid of the guy that finally used a 1st round draft pick for a QB since 19freakin83? come on man!
Looks like he pretty much reposted what you were talking about and denies the claim you are making. I could see how someone who has their mind set on something can read info like that and make the false claim that you did. I agree with CK that DT isn't a great RB or good RB whatever word he used. I am just implying that I don't consider DT a bust, I never claimed he was great, just decent minus the fumbles and the unfortunate concussions which Ireland can't be blamed for.
What crap do you see ? Is the o-line or d-line crap ? linebackers? corners? safeties ? He built that whole defense. Is Bush, Tannehill,Hartline,Bess,Fasano crap ? Your not happy with the results of the past 3 years, none of us are. But take a hint: there's a reason the coaching staff was revamped. There's a reason Ireland was retained. Where on Earth were you before Ireland got here ? I was under the impression its gotten quite a bit better since then. No we haven't completed the turn around, but I'm quite certain the team's been improving vastly from a talent standpoint. We went from getting nothing out of a single 1st or 2nd round pick for 10 years ( except: Ricky/Carey) to getting instant, standout starters with almost every single one. We now have late picks all over the team playing pretty damn well too. Your judging the GM based on the teams records/ "product on the field" ?...... under the coaching of a coaching staff you most likely agree was overwhelmed and didn't properly develop/utilize the talent it was given?? Makes absolutely zero sense, and the GMs biggest critics just wont be reasoned with and are dead set on him being removed..... I really don't know where it comes from. It seems however it started when Ireland gained the national spotlight for the Dez Bryant incident. His infamy began there. The fact that he was dragged into the Harbaugh hunt rubbed people the wrong way too. But when Ireland was retained it surprised them, and when Fisher used us..... Marshall was traded, than the Manning Fiasco began and everyone got their hopes so frickin high.... They turned on the Gm like a pack of wolves. Not signing Matt Flynn to be our savoir was apparently the last straw, as they decided to cause a ruckus after he signed with Seattle. They're passionate I'll give them that ! The bottom line is that there's no reason to defend the guy, we're still waiting for a logical argument as to why his work has been insufficient ( in comparison to any other teams, not to one's distorted perceptions ) A lot of the same folks so hellbent over Ireland were the very same not in favor of "reaching" for Tannehill, they thought Bush would be nothing more than a figure head to sell tickets, gave Bess and Hartline no respect calling our Wrs garbage.... it goes on and on. The web is sadly flooded with nonsense like this.
