We're passing the ball (relatively) well mainly b/c teams are overplaying the run IMO. Better options at WR/TE and better blitz pickups are a MUST. Yards are nice and all but 4 turnovers came out of the passing game, all of them came in the 2nd half while we were ahead or driving for the win, and those TOs' were a huge reason for the loss.
Ok, did i say anything to contradict what you said? They are infact very capable and quality WRs, and they are not infact the problem. What was your point?
It depends on field position. If we're backed up near the 10 we send out Bess, if we are in good FP we send Thigpen out there. Thig got fired today because he was letting balls bounce in front of him and roll down hill.
Neither are complete receivers. They are niche receivers, and neither will ever give you what you need in the redzone. Both can be shut down by good corners and double coverage. If you're going to rely on both of them as your 1 and 2 from now on, we're gonna see a lot of high passing yardage games, with very few passing TDs.
Except for run after the catch ability. Great OP but I think you're overreacting to the success of the pass game so far. Teams are overplaying the run and it's allowing us to produce in the pass game. That's a far cry from having a good pass game/receivers. IMO good passing teams can throw the ball effectively even in passing situations and we are a long ways from that.
It's pretty amazing to see what Hartline and Bess have done given the paucity of other dependable options. They really could use someone like Gaffney in here soon.
Glad you got that sh&$ pff your chest DPAte, appreciate your thoughts. We don't have a 4, 5, or 6, but we do have a 2 and 3, all we need is the 1.. Jtrain can become a star if he's smart, and has people around him that are smart. Bess was just money today, you could see from camp how much better, quicker he was gonna be this year, Hartline, was sexual white chocolate, both with great performances. SS24... Lived up to his training camp billing.. and did it against the best. Need another stud corner, actually think it might be the defenses #1 priority..should be a great upcoming draft and free agency. Damn you Brandon Marshall, Vontae Davis, and Chad Johnson, we could of used your dumasses, but you know what, I don't want any dumasses on this team so piss off. I think Bess and hart caught all the ball today's no?, I know naynay didn't, maybe 1 by Armstrong...That's unbelievable how this passing game worked with two receivers all game.. So, so happy, MR T won the job in camp, so glad he's playing and learning.. If Trent dilfer thinks RT has " enormous upside a couple weeks ago, wonder how he'll feel after today..to bad we couldn't pull it off, would of been good pub for our star performances.. I don't know how or where to put blame..I just know that close games are decided by coaching imo. Philbin showed some serious demeanor today.im diggin it, looks like this dude isn't playin around, and his team is playing very hard for him, and that's really encouraging as it reflects in respect the players have for him. I'm numb, but kinda happy, I think..
There's def plenty of blame to go around. I'm not 100% though I think it's Tanne's job to identify 5 guys who the OL is supposed to block so when I saw Lane rushing up to take Washington in the A gap it looked like a protection call error. Gotta think you'd want one of the OL to pick that up, especially with the QB under center. Hartline falls down on the pick, ish happens. The last INT I need to see again. Tanne should have been taking a sack or getting rid of the ball and living to fight another day. If he was trying to get the ball to a receiver then it's on him. Like AZ, we were playing with fire all game long w/ respect to pass pro and it bit us in the *** at the worst possible time. A draw, a screen, woulda been nice. We had two failed screens early and we never went back to it, a mistake IMO. Of course running the ball always helps, we couldn't do that either. If we had more weapons outside teams would either stop stacking the LOS the way AZ did or we'd drop 40 on them. hopefully my boy Jeff is gonna have that fixed by next season.
Solve two problems at once...move Marshall to Free Safety where he played GREAT down the stretch for Zona last year. As a CB, hes not so good. I can live with Hartline starting but Bess as a starter is a problem for me. Not because Bess is bad but because with Bess and Hartline our Wr's are too damn short and there is no redzone threat at WR. You need size to make plays down the field since a lot of the plays come on jump ball type situations. We need Dwayne Bowe or Mike Wallace this offseason. Thats a great way to spend a big chunk of the available cap space. That and maybe Ramses Barden or James Jones. We need more size in general on the outside. Having a better receiving TE who presents a better seam threat would go a long way as well imo. Not saying Jimmy Graham or Gronkowski types grow on trees but if Egnew hasnt progressed satisfactorily in the offseason then it could be a good idea to get JerMichael Finley since hes a candidate to be released in the offseason due a 4.45M roster bonus on the 15th day of the 2013 calender season.
I would be targeting Wallace and a seam threat tight end. Speed on the outside and down the middle of the field is what the offense is missing IMO.
It's almost at a certain point as if it doesn't at all matter what Davone Bess and Brian Hartline do, they're still their draft position and combine performance. The disqualifying factors being brought up(They're not great in the red zone. They're not great deep threats, etc.) are not standards you can hold literally any but a handful of players to. They don't got to be Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald, and most of the elite wide receivers in the league aren't.
I think Bess is a serviceable #3 and Hartline is a serviceable #2 but a better #3. I don't see how today changed that. Hartline's 80 yard catch and run was a completely botched coverage. I mean, we ARE allowed to still look at details when evaluating players, right? He's a good player. He runs good routes and gets open, catches the ball well and has the body control to move around and get his feet down. But he almost serially refuses to show the dynamic ability that creates touchdowns. Tannehill's thrown the guy at least six touchdowns this year and Hartline's only finished one of them. And yes I can enumerate for you all six touchdowns Tannehill has thrown him and given him the chance o prove he's a dynamic player. He made good one time, and came pretty close to not even doing that. I'm not saying he's a bad player so let's not erect that straw man. Remember when everyone wanted to cut him or bench him simply for being injured during camp, and I consistently labeled that a completely ridiculous idea? Remember the YouTube video I created to explain why I felt that way? So again let's not get caught up in the whole straw man thing. As I have said before this WRs unit has only one player that would populate my ideal WR unit, and Hartline is that guy. But there are two guys that would still be on my acceptable WR unit and Davone is that second guy. But that doesn't mean I suddenly feel they're good #1/#2 or even ideal #2/#3.
Good enough for me. Depends on if there are any stud WRs coming out in the draft. If there are we could draft one or two of them, sign a mid level FA, avoid having to pay 8-10 millie for a WR like Wallace, and use the savings to beef up other areas.
I just don't see how you could label Bess as a serviceable #3...I'd say serviceable #2 just like Hartline. Both are #3s in a really good WR corp, but I certainly think both are serviceable #2s.
Couldn't agree more. Our WR problem will be solved when Bess is a slot guy and BHart is a 3. If we can move Hartline down to a 4 then we'd have a strong WR group and we'd mop the floor with teams like the Jets and Cardinals.
On those runs he was going East-West just to try and get back to the line. There wasn't 3-4 yards ahead of him most of the time. When the defense meets you in the backfield you're losing yards. He tried too hard a couple times but most of the losses weren't even on him.
I agree. Not to take away from our 2 receivers but IMO Hartline & Bess's performance are more due to offensive scheme and play design rather than extreme talent. If you wanna be a big time receiver you still have to pose a threat in the redzone, which none of our guys currently do. That's not to say I don't think Hart & Bess aren't valuable, b/c their ability to move the ball between the 20's has tremendous value, but there are a lot of plays and potential scores left on the field b/c they offer very little once the ball is actually in their hands IMO. Their value to this team will only increase as we add a reliable, legitimate, playmaking receiver.
Bess is more suited for the slot. He is simply not fast enough to be a constant sideline deep threat. He is not tall enough to be a consistent redzone threat. His skill set is perfectly suited for the slot, and you just cannot have a slot receiver be competing to be your #1 receiver.
Well yes I know that. Which is why he's more then serviceable for slot. He already makes a serviceable #2. But he's better and a really good #3. I've already said that.
This idea that there is such a thing in reality as a #1, #2, and #3 wide receiver is along the same lines of thinking that a wide receiver is the key to offensive success. It has no basis in reality. It's similar to this idea that players in basketball create shots. Miami had a so called #1 wide receiver over the past two years. What did it do for them? Absolutely nothing. Brandon Marshall, if anything, had a negative impact on the Dolphins offense. The guy was targeted 300+ times in two years and came up with only 9 TDs. So much for being a #1 and a true redzone threat. At some point, you will realize that the problems with producing touchdowns in the redzone has more to do with a quarterback getting adjusted to making plays in the passing game in confined quarters than it does having this mythical #1 wide receiver or alpha dog receiver. This is exactly the same thought process many of you had after the 2009 season. The thought was that getting Brandon Marshall would take the offense to a new level and help develop the young quarterback. Well, in reality, the offense got worse, and the young quarterback didn't develop. Why? It's because wide receivers don't take offenses to another level, and they also don't help with the development of young quarterbacks. This position, by its nature, has very little impact on the game as a whole.
Tannehill is going to be awesome. I love watching him play and control the offense. He has me extremely giddy moving forward. Hartline and Bess to me are both solid 2's. You get a guy like Dwayne Bowe in here and our receivers are suddenly amongst the best in the league. I'm starting to lose a lot of faith in Daniel Thomas. I also agree that Bush tried to be a hero too much today. What else can you say about Javorski Lane? The dude is a beast and was a great find. We saw today the potential of the defensive line. Easily one of the best units in the league. Wake/Starks/Soliai/Odrick are all really good players and if they continue to get the kind of pressure they got today then our defense is in really good shape. Sean Smith gave up that late TD but he looks to me like he's actually turning that corner. 2 awesome picks today and played Fitzgerald well all day long. With all that said, this was one of the more frustrating losses I've seen in a long time. They just can't finish these games. This was worse than last week and is up there with that game in 2009 against the Colts on Monday night where we held the ball for 43 minutes or so and still lost. It's really hard to swallow when you realize this team could very easily be 3-1.
Also, I'm not even going to get into Naanee because there isn't anything else to say about him at this point.
Please stop. Just accept the fact that some players have a greater ability to make plays with the ball in their hands or in the redzone than others. It's just that simple. Guys like Larry Fitzgerald or Victor Cruz don't score more TDs b/c of the QB; they score b/c they're scorers, and as such they do more to give their QB opportunities than their QB gives them. What's next? Are you gonna say any forward can put up points like Kevin Garnett if they have a good enough point guard?
A great slot receiver with one of the NFL's best all-time QBs throwing the ball..... but obviously not the focal point of the receiving corps or else NE wouldn't have bothered to bring in Lloyd.
Exactly the same. However, we do lack the Randy Moss and/or the twin tower tight ends Gronkowski and Hernandez.
I keep seeing Bush get ****ted on, and yes he should have been more decisive on certain runs. But there were runs out there today that showed incredible vision and patience. I think it was taking more of that to be successful on the ground against a good D, rather then just running it into the pile *cough* Thomas
So you think Victor Cruz would be just as productive as he is, this former undrafted free agent, if he had Mark Sanchez throwing him the ball rather than Eli Manning?
I'm not sure what world you live in where "servicable" players are reasonably capable of, much less demonstrably as productive as this, but it certainly isn't this one. For 90% of your league, #2's and #3's aren't stepping up and becoming highly productive players. Maybe with the Giants or Packers.
I couldn't be happier with Bess and Hartline's production. I'm more of the thinking that we don't have to label #1, #2, or #3 receivers. What I do feel strongly about, though, is having 3 guys worthy of stepping on a field and producing at an NFL level. The disparity in the number of targets and catches between Hartline, Bess, and our next closest WR (Armstrong, I'm assuming) is a problem. And no matter what anyone says, this is not a QB thing. I agree, the redzone TDs and such could be labeled part of the QBs problem. But the lack of production out of a 3rd receiver is not on the QB. Not when those guys had an entire offseason and training camp to develop chemistry with the QB while Hartline was on the sideline. Not when you're getting the amount of snaps you're getting. (I'M LOOKING AT YOU NAANEE)
