That is because had they been drafted by New England, they would have gone to a great team that already had the great quarterback in place. Once again, that alone proves that the wide receiver's impact is limited by the quarterback he plays with. Look no further than the Dolphins. Miami scored more points per play and averaged more yards per play by a significant margin with Chad Pennington throwing the ball to Greg Camarillo, Ted Ginn Jr, and Davone Bess than they did with Chad Henne throwing the ball to Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess, and Brian Hartline. What's the difference? The quarterback play. You can win in this league without a great wide receiver. Your perceived impact of the wide receiver position has more to do with the flash and glamour of making a big play than it is their actual impact on winning and losing. Of all the positions on the field, wide receiver is the least impactful. It's the shiny hood ornament on the car. It looks good, but you don't need it for the car to run.
This is silly. Yes the WR is limited by his QB. Well the QB is limited by his offensive line in the same way. Every offensive position is tied into another. To deny the need for a play making WR is just strange to me.
Except now there is another spot on the field open somewhere. That extra defender covering the WR came from somewhere else in the secondary where there is now an opportunity. It's the same concept as a giant NT who takes up two blockers. A WR can be limited and still have a positive impact.
If you have a WR whose play is absolutely terrible he will affect the offense. The difference between having a decent WR and a terrible one (Hartline vs. Naanee) opened up the running game for Bush. The cost of that decent WR versus a great one is where KB has a point. It's like a guard, if you have a terrible one you are really going to be terrible, but if you have a great one he won't make a world of difference for your offense.
What was the result of the play? Did the attention that Johnson drew on the play create a touchdown in the area vacated by that defender? If it didn't, then what exactly was the effect of him drawing two defenders? That's a goal line play. What was the down? Did they score a touchdown, or were they held to a field goal? Did they turn the ball over trying to force it to Calvin Johnson despite him having two defenders on him? I want someone to show me the statistical evidence that drawing coverage makes a statisically significant impact on the game, in particular winning the game.
Dude, it's common sense that in an 11 vs 11 football game, having 10 vs 9 is a GREAT thing!! No analysis is needed. Its simple math.
You completely missed the point of the post. In science terms, people here are insinuating that the QB/WR relationship is parasitic with the WR leaching off of the QB. I'm saying it's symbiotic where both benefit from one another. Also the result of the play has no bearing on the concept. It's about a numbers game. If there are two corners on your WR near the goal line that means there is one less defender either in the box helping your running game or in the secondary helping your other receivers. Whether the team in question converts on this opportunity has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Not to mention double coverage happens all over the field not just near the end zone.
We could settle it really quick...let's just ask Matthew Stafford if he'd rather have Legadu Naanee or Calvin Johnson......
Honestly, I would love to draft a WR first, but I don't see anyone worth taking were we are expected to be drafting. I think we need to take the best mix between value and BPA, I think a CB or DE/LB will represent that. I expect us to draft 2 WRs between rounds 2 and 3 though.
So. That doesn't mean the QB will have the same success or lack there of regardless of what receivers are on the field. If the opposing DBs are better than your receivers, chances are you're gonna be in for a long day. Period. You act as though there's not a competition within the competition regarding WR & DB. Do you think the Packers offense would be as efficient & high scoring if Rodgers didn't have all those talented, 2nd round receivers? Green Bay obviously disagrees with you or else they wouldn't have spent all those high picks on them (5 2nd rounders & 1 1st rounder since 2001). If you have a franchise QB, you better have good receivers to maximize his play. Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, and James Jones combined for 37 touchdowns, so don't tell me that's a limited impact. BTW, the QB's impact is 100% tied to his pass catchers. If they don't get open, catch the ball, pick up YAC, or score TDs, the QB's impact is lessened. Not sure why you don't see how symbiotic this relationship is. I think you're confusing limited touches with limited impact. A good to great receiver can make a big impact during those limited touches and can change the course of the game with one big play.
Looking at our Dolphins one could easily argue that Pennington would have put up better #s with better WRs and Henne would have put up worse #s with worse WRs. I don't see your point. I understand you want numbers/data/statstics to satisfy you. I honestly don't know what kind of numbers I can post that will convince you though. I think we all can agree that we want the best players at each position, though. Right?
That's too simplistic. Your argument ignores the fact that Pennington faced one of the easiest defensive schedules in the history of the NFL in '08, BUT even against that creampuff schedule the offense had 9 games with 17 or less points.... and great defenses like Baltimore could pressure us all game long w/o fear of our receivers beating them. Do you realize that we're not limited to just 2 options? It's not "bad QB + great receiving corps" or "great QB + bad receiving corps". There's a 3rd option that you're leaving out, the one that ensures optimal success & production, which is "great QB + great receiving corps". What you fail to realize is that even though a great QB might make an average to mediocre receiving corps better, that same average to mediocre receiving corps will bring down that great QB's performance & potential.
I beg to differ. Cowboys won 5 SBs with a mixture of 3 HOF WRs, 2 Pro Bowl WRs, 2 Pro Bowl TEs. Steelers won 6 SBs with a mix of 2 HOF WRs, 2 Pro Bowl WRs, Pro Bowl TE. Colts won 5 Championships/Super Bowls with a mixture of 2 HOF WRs, 1 likely HOF WR, 3 Pro Bowl WRs, 1 HOF TE, and 1 All Pro TE. Redskins won 3 SBs with a HOF WR & 2 Pro Bowl WRs. Raiders won 3 SBs with a mixture of a HOF WR, HOF candidate WR, HOF TE, and 1 All Pro TE. 49ers won 3 SBs with a HOF WR, Pro Bowl WR, Pro Bowl TE. Packers won 3 straight Championships/SB with 2 Pro Bowl receivers.... then won 2 more with a mix of 3 Pro Bowl WRs & 2 Pro Bowl TEs. Broncos won 2 straight SBs with 2 Pro Bowl receivers and HOF TE. Dolphins won 2 straight SBs with a HOF receiver playing a huge role in the offense's success. Then you have teams like the '11 Giants, '99 Rams, and '68 Jets with major firepower at receiver.... and you could add in the '02 Bucs with 2 Pro Bowl receivers.
This is the NFL. A great quarterback will make even the worst receivers in the NFL good. A great wide receiver will not make a poor quarterback look good though. Even look at Naane. He was relatively productive when playing an HBack position and having Philip Rivers as his trigger man. I'll go farther. As good as Mark Duper and Mark Clayton were, Dan Marino made them. They would not have been nearly as good with, let's say Tony Eason, as they were with Dan Marino. However, Dan Marino would have been great regardless of who he had catching passes. OJ McDuffie was one of the more limited receivers in the NFL, and Dan Marino propelled that guy to a Pro Bowl birth and a 90+ catch season. I'm still waiting for someone to show me statistically the impact a wide receiver makes.
Your asking for a stupid stat. The "impact"?? Is it not obvious? If you want to argue QBs can make a WR better than they are that may be valid, but to pretend they are irrelevant is dumb.
Nannee was NOT relatively productive with Rivers. He was bad. Very bad. You don't need statistics to see the impact. It's obvious.
BR How about some examples: Rich Gannon, 11 straight years w/o a Pro Bowl. 75.6 QBR, 66 TD, 54 INT, 56.9%, 11,158 yards Rich Gannon, 4 years w/ a combination of Tim Brown, Jerry Rice, James Jett, Andre Rison, Jerry Porter, and Ricky Dudley 93.2 QBR, 105 TD, 44 INT, 63.4%, 15,787 yards NFL MVP, 3x AFC POY, 3x All Pro, 4x Pro Bowl, 1 SB appearance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Rypien, [46 starts] w/ The Posse still playing at a high level (Art Monk, Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders) 88.5 QBR, 84 TD, 48 INT, 11132 yards, 7.9 Y/A. NFC OPOY, SB MVP, 2x Pro Bowl, Mark Rypien [55 games/ 32 starts] w/ an aged Posse or without them at all. 67.7 QBR, 31 TD, 40 INT, 7341 yards, 6.1 Y/A no accolades ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donovan McNabb's lone year with Terrell Owens in his prime. (Philly won NFC by the way) 104.7 QBR, 31 TD (6.6%), 8 INT (1.7%), 3875 yards, 8.3 Y/A, 64.0% McNabb's average season w/o Owens 86.8 QBR, 20 TD (4.4%), 10 INT (2.2%), 3210 yards, 6.1 Y/A, 59.4% ** How about the '87 SB Champion Redskins with a mixture of bums at QB (Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams, and Ed Rubbert) that finished 4th in passing TDs, 4th in passing yardage, and 7th in QBR? Do you think that happens w/o Art Monk [HOF], Gary Clark [All Pro that year], and Ricky Sanders? ** How about the trio of Tim Brown, James Jett, and Ricky Dudley making a second QB look much better, Jeff George: 91.2 QBR, 29 TD, 9 INT, 3917, 7.5 avg. **Should I do Brady with and without Moss, Gronkowski, Welker, and Hernandez? .... or John Kitna with & w/o Chad Johnson/Peter Warrick or Miles Austin/Dez Bryant? .... or Ken Stabler with & w/o Biletnikoff [HOF], Cliff Branch [HOF candidate], and Dave Casper [HOF]? .... or Mike Vick with & w/o Jackson & Maclin? .... or Culpepper with & w/o Moss & Carter? .... or Marino with & w/o Duper, Clayton, and Moore?
If there was just some way of getting a certain Notre Dame LB and a certain Penn State LB as our new MLB and WLB.
Sorry but this is just silly IMO. Duper & Clayton maximized Marino's potential as much as Marino maximized theirs. Did you see Marino's drop off in production w/o them? I'm not sure why you don't see the symbiotic relationship here. How about I statistically show you the amount of yards, TDs, game changing plays, and game winning TDs that great receivers make compared to average to mediocre receivers? That's a rhetorical question b/c the answer is quite obvious.
You did your research on that. Nice post. Backs up alen's picture of Megatron double teamed very well, lol.
Marino's 3 year average with Duper, Clayton, Moore: 95.1 QBR... 41 TD (7.0%)... 20 INT (3.5%)... 4656 yards... 61.3%... 8.0 Y/A {NFL Network Top 10 All Time Receiving corps} Marino 11 year average w/o the trio (excluding '93): 84.2 QBR... 23 TD (4.5%)... 15 INT (2.9%)... 3774 yards... 59.1%... 7.2 Y/A
QBs who played with and w/o Randy Moss & Cris Carter Randall Cunningham (1 season)............. 106.0 QBR... 34 TD (8.0%)... 10 INT (2.4%)... 8.7 y/a... 3704 yards... 265 completions Cunningham's 6 seasons avg w/o them.... 81.1 QBR... 22 TD (4.7%)... 12 INT( 2.8%)... 6.8 y/a... 3245 yards... 264 completions ** Notice how different the stats are despite the completions being almost identical. So, how is that possible. {The 6 seasons are ones where Randall started 12+ games} Jeff George (1 yr, 10 games)....... 94.2 QBR... 23 TD (7.0%)... 12 INT (3.6%)... 8.6 y/a... 235 y/g, 191 completions George's 4 year avg with Colts..... 72.0 QBR... 10 TD (2.7%)... 12 INT (3.0%)... 6.2 y/a... 183 y/g, 218 completions Culpepper's last year with Moss.................................... 110.9 QBR... 39 TD (7.1%)... 11 INT (2.0%)... 8.6 y/a... 4714 yards... 295 y/g Culpepper's 1st year w/o Moss (7 games before injury)... 72.0 QBR.... 6 TD (2.8%).... 12 INT (5.6%)... 7.2 y/a... 1564 yards... 223 y/g
Jon Kitna (with Chad Johnson & Peter Warrick)........... 87.4 QBR... 26 TD (5.0%)... 15 INT (2.9%)... 62.3%... 224 y/g... 6.9 y/a Jon Kitna (with Miles Austin & Dez Bryant, 10 games).. 88.9 QBR... 16 TD (5.0%)... 12 INT (3.0%)... 65.7%... 234 y/g... 7.4 y/a Jon Kitna's career average..........................................77.4 QBR............. 3.8 TD%...... 3.7 INT%... 60.3 completion% ****and that includes the above 2 years pulling up his average**** Mike Vick (with Jackson & Maclin).................... 92.0 QBR... 20 TD (4.9%)... 10 INT (2.5%)... 8.0 y/a... 61.1%... 253 y/g Vick (previous 3 years w/o Jackson & Maclin)... 75.5 QBR... 16 TD (4.5%)... 13 INT (3.5%)... 6.6 y/a... 54.7%... 157 y/g
QBs with and w/o Moss & Welker Brady 2002-'06 avg (No Moss & Welker)..... 88.7 QBR... 26 TD (4.9%)... 13 INT (2.5%)... 7.1 y/a... 61.6% completion... 3743 yards Brady 2007 (with Moss & Welker)............. 117.2 QBR... 50 TD (8.7%).... 8 INT (1.4%)... 8.3 y/a... 68.9% completion... 4806 yards Matt Cassell (with Moss & Welker)................... 89.4 QBR... 21 TD (4.1%), 11 INT (2.1%)... 7.2 y/a... 63.4%... 3693 yards Cassell (following year, no Moss/Welker)....... 69.9 QBR... 16 TD (3.2%), 16 INT (3.2%)... 5.9 y/a... 59.0%... 2924 yards Brady 2010-'11 (w/ Gronk, Welker, Hernandez). 108.0 QBR... 38 TD (6.8%).... 8 INT (1.5%)... 8.3 y/a... 65.7% completion... 4568 yards Just throwing this out there: of the four 15+ win teams since Randy Moss came into the league, Moss was on 2 of them.
2009 Favre w/ Percy Harvin & Sydney Rice......... 107.2 QBR.. 33 TD (6.2%).... 7 INT (1.7%).. 68.4%.. 7.9 y/a.. 3472 yards.. 343 comps 2008 Favre w/ an average receiving corps in NY... 81.0 QBR.. 22 TD (4.2%).. 22 INT (4.2%).. 65.7%.. 6.7 y/a.. 4202 yards.. 363 comps 2007 Favre w/ a good receiving corps in GB......... 95.7 QBR.. 28 TD (5.2%).. 15 INT (2.8%).. 66.5%.. 7.8 y/a.. 4155 yards.. 356 comps **That's a significant variance in stats considering it's the same QB and almost the same amount of completions & completion %.
Is this even a debate? There's a scene in The Newsroom where the indian kid finds a website that is dedicated to trolling, where you only get in if you can show proof that you've managed to take a normal, rational discussion and then toss something in there that takes the conversation into a completely out of control frenzy. I feel like maybe that website exists...
Considering how much talent there is on FSU this year Simon you're surprisingly quiet on them. You'd think I was the FSU fan.
My current man crush list: OLB/DE Sean Porter OLB/DE Chase Thomas LB C.J Mosley CB Dee Milliner DE Bjoern Werner WR Keenen Allen WR Da'rick Rogers DE William Gholston
A gentleman never talks We're loaded. But I'm nervous that it's yet another false dawn. If we beat Clemson, then it's on. Beating our first three opponents 178-3 isn't the greatest barometer.
