The Anti-Jeff Ireland Thread

I don't think that option is off the table at all. Steve Ross may even welcome the opportunity.

And besides, how is that relevant to the point I raised? It seems like you're pivoting the topic. You said that Jeff Ireland must have assurances that his job is safe because he made trades that worsen the team in 2012 for the betterment of 2013 and beyond. I pointed out that Randy Mueller did the SAME THING in 2007 with trades like the Wes Welker trade, and then subsequently the mid-season Chris Chambers trade. Did Randy Mueller have assurances from Wayne Huizenga that his job was safe in 2008 when he made those trades?

 

His job isn't in jeopardy. We just think it will be once the team has performed an entire season the way we think it will perform. Randy Mueller's job, as CK rightly pointed out, also wasn't in jeopardy when he traded Chambers for a 2nd round selection in 2007. That didn't prevent him from getting fired, though.

 

Both rosters were similar, but I'd take 2007.

I think my answer would be: Tony Sparano and staff, with a healthy 2007 roster (Trent Green, Ronnie Brown, Bell, etc.) could possibly achieve 7-8 wins.

 

Jason Taylor doesn't get credit for past years, we're talking about what he had left in 2007 Taylor was a pretty solid player for years on out, but he wasn't as good as Wake now.

Joey Porter went on to be DPOTY because of the Sparano coaching staff. You're almost not certainly going to understand why, but there's a very notable schematic point on why he had his career best season after his decline. How about this- Think about it medium hard?

You're comparing every other player 1 to 1 to other players at the same positions, and you're claiming I'm beating up a straw man when I assume you're doing that for Randy Starks and Jason Taylor? ...What?

 

I'm fairly certain that Ross will make a big push for Cowher, Chucky et al. if the season ends in a train wreck. It's basically his only chance of getting people to care for the product anymore.

 

Ok. So what about the 6-10 team? Was that all the wins he was going get from them?

 

Really? We're already starting up the "Fire Jeff Ireland" band already after one game with...

A new head coach?
A new offensive coordinator?
A new defensive coordinator?
A starting rookie quarterback?

Really???????

Wow, talk about a knee jerk reaction!!! Anyone who expects the Dolphins to have a stellar season this year is delusional! This season is going to be PAINFUL and success will not be measured by the win/loss column, it will be measured by how this team progresses throughout the season.

Not comparing Tannehill to Peyton Manning but during Manning's first season; the first half of the season he was autrocious, causing many to question the wisdom in drafting him but during the second half, Manning progressed and improved to such an extent that it earned him a Pro Bowl appearance.

Last year, everyone was on Cam Newton's jock strap and while Newton played phenominally, the Panthers finished the season with a dissmal 3-13 record.

If you're expecting Joe Philbin to come into Miami and repeat what Jim Harbaugh did in his first season as San Francisco's head coach, you best go to Walgreen's and stock up on Tums, Mylanta, and anti-depressants because your expectations are waaaaaaaaay over the top.

 

Sure it is. You're suggesting that if he doesn't win X games, he'll be fired. What those expectations are is speculation, but surely Ross expressed what Ireland needs to do in order to retain his job this offseason.

 

Seriously?

D line and LB is pretty close to this year, and it is supposed to be a strength now.

Those DBs are better, IMO.

And we don't have a WR close to Chambers.

Injuries and Cameron killed that team, not just talent.

 

By that definition, every GM's job is in jeopardy. You think Jim Irsey said to Bill Polian, look Bill, if we go 2-14 next season, I'll fire your arse? When a team implodes (and it was Ross who publicly said he was expecting a winning season, not us), the GM's usually the first to bite the dust.

 

I tend to doubt that Steve Ross will attempt a big time coach hire. I think he's aware of his reputation based on the shenanigans with the Sparano/Harbaugh thing, and all reports were that he was looking to put his mark on the team with this hiring of Joe Philbin. I think he believes in Joe Philbin and to be honest I'm not sure I see any reason not to believe in him. I really did have few issues with the offensive game plan against Houston this week. Usually when I see a team moving the ball right away in the 1st quarter, it means the offensive game plan was scripted pretty well. That can only last so long when the bottom line is you have inferior talent. Eventually the dam is going to break loose. On the defensive side of the ball I wasn't entirely unhappy with what was planned there either. I thought there was too much space in the middle of the field for Schaub to get easy yards and beef up his passer rating, but look at the talent in the secondary. When your #1 corner is a Sean Smith and your #2 corner is a guy even the Arizona Cardinals didn't want for a starting corner, you've got problems. Chris Clemons is not a strong player, nor Jimmy Wilson (who is about as Jekyll/Hyde as I have ever seen).

 

I agree with Ross keeping Philbin. Have you seen how long he's stuck with Ireland? Philbin might have the best job security in the league.

 

I think a train wreck (which was the assumption behind my argument) would leave him with scarcely a choice. He can't go on buying half the seats in the stadium forever. And no matter how well you or I think of Joe Philbin, he's not going to put anyone in a stadium seat. At some point, this becomes a financial issue, and the big name the obvious solution.

 

LOL! I really can't believe what I'm reading.

Joey Porter was a talented pro-bowl caliber player before he came to Miami. Did you forget this? He signed a hefty contract to come to Miami because he was a big name FA.

And you can berate my football intelligence as you do with many others on here. But your track record on being right and wrong speaks for itself.

Your line about the 2007 roster not having anyone approaching the talents of some of the players on this 2012 team is laughable, and you were proven wrong. But when you do finally get proven wrong, out come the strawmen.

 

Wouldn't the fact he was hired by Ireland be reason to be suspicious of him? Or did Stephen Ross force Philbin on Ireland?

 

Joey Porter was an overrated and overpaid FA. He is exactly the type of signing that sinks teams.

 

The team operated at a decent profit last season. Ticket sales aren't that big of an issue financially. The issue for Stephen Ross is getting enough public support in order to get stadium funding. I don't see that being a near-term possibility one way or another.

 

I agree, he was a bad signing for a below .500 team.

but that wasn't the point. The point was that he was a talented player, certainly belonging in talent pool of Randy Starks and Paul Soliai

 

You're assuming Jeff Ireland is incapable of making any good decisions whatsoever. That is not an assumption I have ever made.

Additionally, yes I absolutely believe there were many indicators that when you get down to it, while Jeff Ireland approved of Joe Philbin being in the final two, his final choice was Denver's current offensive coordinator Mike McCoy. He told McCoy privately something along the lines of "if things go according to plan" he'll be sending a plane for he and his family tomorrow. Then the next day came and the team announced Philbin as the hire. This in addition to reports from media that flat out said that Philbin was Ross' guy and that McCoy was Ireland's guy. Ireland made a few more other questionable comments a little after the hire, and further you can absolutely see a pretty clear difference in philosophy between the two when it comes to personnel.

 

Right, but overpaid talent does not provide value to a team.

 

No, they're not close.

Paul Soliai now is much better than a broken down Keith Traylor with bone on bone knees, Steve Fifita, and Traylor '07.
Randy Starks is better than Vonnie Holliday was at this point.
Jared Odrick is much better than Matt Roth was.
Dansby and Thomas are comparable.
Kevin Burnett is better than Channing Crowder was.
Koa Misi is pretty comparable to Joey Porter in that role. He couldn't do what Porter did in '08 if put in that same position, but that's not the same thing.
Cameron Wake is better than Jason Taylor '07.
Will Allen is pretty much a wash with Sean Smith, but Smith is a little erratic.
Yeremiah Bell was NOT the Yeremiah Bell of the last several years.
Richard Marshall is better than Travis Daniels
Renaldo Hill is better than whomever we had.

The defense is much, much better.

I don't know what exactly you think you remember of Chris Chambers, but that's not accurate for 2007, and hadn't been for years at that point.

 

Joey Porter was used in basically three different roles in his career as far as we're concerned. With the Steelers, Dolphins 2007, and Dolphins 2008-release.

Can you tell me anything about that, or why it's relevant?

 

I'm not disputing anything here. I have no firm opinion on who wanted Philbin. I suspect that both Ireland and Ross wanted Philbin. McCoy was very likely a leverage point.

I think it is a very prudent point though when debating how attractive Miami would be to potential FAs. Stephen Ross overriding Ireland on the HC would not be something that is very appealing.

 

Your question is irrelevant to the conversation. And to answer it would require me to go back and rewatch the games he played in those three roles.

Joey Porter, prior to 2007 was a pro-bowl caliber talent.
Joey Porter, post 2007 was a pro-bowl caliber talent.

Hence, the mere fact that he was highly successful in >1 scheme tells me that the guy was always a highly talented player and would be one of the top 5 talented players on the 2012 Miami Dolphins roster.

Is this really even an argument? I'm sure at least 95 out of 100 people would agree with me.

 

It's completely relevant. Joey Porter wasn't the player in '08 that he was earlier in his career, but he was more productive, and it's completely scheme-related. We're talking about 2007 only, so that's important too.

If you think that's irreverent and don't actually know anything about the relative schemes, how exactly is it you're claiming you know what you're talking about and I don't?

 

And if he knows that he's going to be retained, shouldn't we be somewhat pleased that he's got these extra picks and all this cap space to build the team with Philbins vision as the director..

If we only judge him on the two years where we know he had full Gm control, that's not bad no, considering all the transition?

 

I thought you were talking about talent. Because if you are, then Porter's role is completely irrelevant to the argument. If Misi can't do what Porter can when put into the right scheme, then Misi is the worse player talent-wise.

 

If the argument was: Why was Joey Porter so much more productive in 2008 than in other years? I'd agree with you. Then your question and the answer is relevant.

But that's not the argument. The argument is whether Joey Porter is a talented player regardless of scheme. And he is, and he has proven to be. He'd be successful anywhere in any scheme. The amount of success may depend upon scheme, with that I agree.

 

But we're intrinsically talking about development and what the relative coaching staffs as well. Joey Porter in 2007 was playing a similar role, was way worse as a run defender and was pretty bad in terms of pass rush production relative to their snaps.

 

The problem is that a player's value to a team is based on more than just pure talent.

 

Whether or not he will be around and whether he thinks he'll be around are two entirely separate issues.

 

It is the argument. We're talking about decisions that the coaching staff and front offices made as well.

And Joey Porter was absolutely, positively not successful in any scheme. 2007 is a pretty much proof of that.

 

I still say our record is more a reflection of QB play and coaching.

QB Play:
When we had a solid QB play we were 11-5. We started Henne after Penny went down and gave him the customary 3 years to prove himself form there. He didn't. Now we have a new rookie QB. There's no wasted time. I don't see any of that as ridiculous.

Coaching:
Our offense has been poor since 11-5. Sparano has proved in Dallas he can call a solid offense. Seems to be proving it in NY now. Why didn't he do that here?

 

Most likely, yes. Wayne was a clown of an owner. His main point of attraction was that he would cede all control. Certainly we should hope Ross doesn't fall into the same category.

 

I have the feeling that you're intrinsically changing the scope of the argument as to avoic conceding a point

 

But I'm not arguing against anything you're saying. I agree with you.

Joey Porter was valuable to the Steelers and then valuable to the Dolphins though, no?

 

That's it. I've officially found the end of the internet. Now I've really read everything

 

If you say so, it wouldn't be the worst allegation you guys have baselessly made because you don't like what I'm saying.