The Anti-Jeff Ireland Thread

I've given Ireland the benefit of the doubt...but he's had enough time now and this team just keeps inching lower. His free agency whiffs combined with his inability to draft playmakers makes him doomed. He's great if you want him working your DL pickups...but that's it.

 

You're wildly overstating the position Chad Pennington was in when he was released. It's possible he would have signed elsewhere if not for Dan Henning(Not Bill Parcells, whom he would have functionally had negligible interaction with), but the phone was not ringing off the hook for him. He was dumped late in the off-season after most teams had settled their situations and it was very logical for Miami to go after him under any circumstances.

oh no, innuendos about chronic bed-wetters who are butt-hurt about lord knows what, yet are still somehow cowardly over the internet!

I've made no secret that Jeff Ireland has done a better job than he's gotten credit for and it's really shouldn't have taken this long, and the insult wasn't nearly good enough to go ahead and ask a dumb question anyway.

 

It's interesting you didn't bother listing any of these contributors that Jeff Ireland inherited in 2008 from the stellar 2007 team that helped keep the boat afloat whom he's gotten rid of and left with worse players.

Probably because it doesn't make any ****ing sense and you probably should have looked at the 2007 roster before you posted.

 

We went 11-5....because we had a QB that year plus the Wildcat.

We lose Penny and the novelty of the WC we end just below average at 7-9, 6-10.

If Tanny is the real deal, all this goes away. Franchise QB play changes the record dramatically.

And I still don't understand how Sparano having a great game as an OC says anything bad about Ireland. If Sparano was so damn good at offense, why didn't he override Henning or Daboli, he was the HC after all?

 

Apparently I haven't screamed it enough because you are very confused.

I've said repeatedly and pretty clearly that you either need to give Ireland credit for 2008-Present, or just post-Parcells, you can't have it both ways. I've never, ever said not to do one or the other, in fact I've said it doesn't matter because it doesn't substantively change things because there's no shift in success or lack thereof when Parcells leaves.

What you're somehow getting confused with is my taking issue with people repeating it without it actually seemingly having happened, or name who did it and using it to claim freedom from any sort of burden of proof.

That would be a good argument if you had evidence(emphasis on the last four words)

 

Again, it's a bad argument provided you even had the records correct, which you don't.

Coaching has a pretty undeniable influence on that.

 

I wouldn't be a buyer for him. Unless it's a red tag sale at a 4th or 5th round pick.

 

remember...it was Tony Sparano who took over play calling in Dallas in 07' with great success.

 

If I am wildly overstating Pennington 's position, then so is Pennington. He has said on many occasions that it was Parcells that was the deciding factor. Afterall, Parcells drafted him. Players take those things to heart.

Again, why should Ireland stay on after this season? What has he built of note?

and the insult was great since you made mention to it.

 

I do remember. I also remember he was HC here and could have done that with Henning.

 

Thus..my issue with him.

He never took responsibility for the offense that was handing us 7-9 and 6-10

 

Agreed. i see better offensive playcalling, netting us 3 more victories a year with Sparano.

 

That's not really a reasonable point of view for someone who either knows better or has the resources and exposure to learn. If my grandmother said that, it would be ok. You should know better. When you have a team that under-performs expectations routinely, is frequently competitive vs. top teams but blows games regardless, and things like that nature, the first thing that you look at isn't talent. If you are capable of reasonably accurately dividing the blame, you've got a responsibility to do that, and throwing your hands up and saying they all suck is very lazy and awful.

Your own personal draft philosophy is irrelevant. You may think tight ends or safeties are of supreme importance, but I don't think there is any evidence they've become core positions like that at all. T hey've become more important than they once happened to be, but there's been no revolution.

 

I love how the 1-15 team is solid evidence for miserable talent while the 6-10 and 7-9 teams aren't any evidence for below average talent because, duh, that was on coaching. I suppose we'll need to hire Cam Cameron again, then

 

I'm just gonna say it:

Prior to an absolute freaky amount of injuries, that 2007 team was just as good, if not better than this 2012 team.

just look at both of the rosters prior to any injuries and think medium, moderately, slightly hard about it.

 

If you don't think good coaching could be the difference in at least a couple of games a year, then why have coaches?

Following your logic Shula=Kotite.

 

The 2007 team also wasn't much worse than the incarnations that followed it. I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for Tony Sparano being one hell of a coach (not necessarily one hell of a playercaller though), but that way, madness and insults lie.

 

Seriously. Do read posts before you hit "reply". Then do try to digest what is being said (and what isn't) before you hit "reply". I'm genuinely tired of you throwing a strawman at every argument that doesn't happen to agree with your preset notion.

 

I called it back on the first page. There's no metric that wont result in a circular discussion of who is at fault.

 

If i misunderstood your post I'm sorry. But it sure seems to me that this:

Is saying that we have bad talent now and that had little to do with coaching. I'm basing that on that post, other posts of yours and the couple of posts between me and Section right before.

Instead of being a douche, explain to me how I got your point wrong. I do not have a history of misunderstanding you.

**********NEVERMIND. I get it now.

Sparano = Shula. Sparano squeezed 5-7 more wins out of a horrible team. He's quite possibly the greatest that ever lived.

 

I don't even think it's a question. Sparano got the players to play with intensity.

That 2007 season was a fluke. It got real ugly with the injuries real fast.

#1 QB - injured within 5 games
#1 WR - injured within 6 games
#1 RB - injured within 7 games
#1 FS - injured within 6 games
#1 SS - injured within 1 game
#1 MLB - injured within 5 games
#1 WLB - injured within 11 games

Then the backups started to pick up injuries. It got real ugly, real fast. And Cameron wasn't a guy like Sparano that could get the most out of guys after an 0-7 start. One thing I always respected about Tony. Never seemed like guys quit on him often. Maybe a game here and there (last Pats game of season 2010), but never for a stretch

 

No. It's saying that you can't make the coaching argument for 2008-2011 and then go ahead and claim that Ireland inherited a talentless roster without making the coaching argument for 2007, too (and allow for the freakish amount of injuries as Eop pointed out). It's also a wee bit dishonest to claim that Miami could've won more games in 2008-2011 because they were competitive in so many and then again point at the 2007 team for a lack of talent when that team - despite the freakish amount of injuries - lost 8 games by 10 points or less and 6 games by less than a TD.

 

Nah, Sparano > Cam Cameron. I'm guessing that's what he meant.

 

IIRC (this was mostly on the old boards and the start of this one), CK and others predicted a 5+ win bump in 2008 and that was prior to the new regime even taking over.

 

Nice try, darling. But really, try trolling someone who's dafter than you. It'll be more fun and it'll not be so hilariously obvious.

 

Firing a GM after he stockpiles draft picks and cap space is a pretty bad strategy for luring in potential GMs.

 

People still debate the fact that this team has been trending downward since at least 2010? Amazing. I remember being fed up with the leftovers of the rotten tuna regime after the embarrassing loss to the Pats that ended 2010. Nothing has happened since that has changed any of that. Once again, absolutely mind-boggling that people think that anything happening right now is going to turn us into a contender. Jeff Ireland would have to have the draft of a lifetime next April for us to even be a strong contender next season. Some of our battered spouse fanbase seem perfectly content with a struggle to maintain just mediocrity.

 

I'm sure an incoming GM will hate to have so many picks and so much draft space to start off with in the top 100 of the draft....

 

Hey, mister GM candidate. We have all this cap space and draft picks. Unfortunately we have those "luxuries" because of our previous GM's inability to load the roster with any talent. He built unsuccessful teams and thus we had to fire him. But at least he left us in a somewhat good situation moving forward. You interested?

That would do it, I think. I think any sort of halfway decent salesman could do an even better job than me.

 

Boy I must have missed that point you made about Pennington and Parcells. That's a pretty good point. Pennington essentially saying he'd not have chosen Miami if Parcells wasn't there pokes more holes in that 0.484 record of Ireland's (which as you've said isn't exactly something you want to hang your hat on in the first place).

 

So at this point I could make a big *****y proclamation that you don't read before you hit reply, blah, blah, blah like you did, instead I'm going to point out to you, that I never said we were a talentless team in 2007.

Here's what happened:

The players were fed up after Saban. The defense wanted Capers. They got Cam instead. Before Cam met with a single player the defense who were the most accomplished unit and the unquestioned leaders and faces of the franchise, were vocal to the papers about wanting Capers and not knowing who this Cam person was. The draft happened and Jason Taylor and Vonnie Holliday were blasting the picks to the papers. The defense was not happy from day one and Cam never won them over. The first four games happened and the defense was the worst they have ever played. Their horrible play cost us those games and Cam never had a shot from there to win them over. He wasn't equipped to lead these veterans and they weren't willing to try, it was lose/lose all the way.

Parcells comes in. He installs Ireland. He installs Sparano. He installs Henning. He runs the draft. On paper, very few were upset with that draft. They had Henne graded very similar to Ryan so they got what they felt was a similar QB + Long. Penny comes available. We needed a strong leader presence with a Parcells pedigree, so boom problem solved. Except problem isn't solved because Penny while savvy as hell, doesn't have the physical ability for big plays. Wild Cat is the answer. If you view the Wild Cat + Penny as a single QB, you have Pro Bowl QB play overall. 11-5. Penny goes down and all we have is Henne. We still try to use the WildCat, because hey it worked with Penny. problem is Henne wasn't Penny. He did have the physical ability for big plays. Doesn't matter, WildCat it was. The whole time Sparano isn't using his proven playcalling abilities to stop this as the HC. I'll let you decide if it was because he wasn't allowed to by Parcells or if he was stupid. Fast forward, Parcells is gone. Henning is gone (at the same time how odd.) We get out to an 0-7 start that seals Sparano's fate more than anything.

I think if Sparano starts calling plays like he;s shown a real aptitude for in Dallas and now 1 game into his OC duties with Jets, we'd have a very different past couple of years. 2-3 wins more each year and we aren't calling for anyone's head.

The only talent this team is lacking to make a splash was QB and coaching. Once that is solved, we'll be fine as long as our coach isn't our GM.

 

Was going to have a sarcastic reply, but decided not to it. Can you please explain your above quote.

 

"Hey potential GM, if you don't win pretty soon you'll be fired".

VS.

"Hey I will keep you around as long as you want to stay."

 

Job with very little pressure, or job with a lot of pressure.

 

Quarterbacks are unequivocally the most important position on the field.

Some of the best teams in the league have phenomenal tight ends, that's true, but correlation is not causation, and doesn't explain why those players are somehow special. The position is rapidly becoming more and more indistinguishable from wide receiver. The overlap between big wide receiver and small receiving tight end is basically irrelevant now.

Ball hawking safeties don't even follow the standard of tight end, they don't actually seem to at all correlate with successful teams. It's just something you like.

 

I don't see this. At all. It is the exact diametric opposite. I don't think any GM would walk into Miami's situation saying gee, Steve Ross didn't even give Jeff Ireland a chance. I think it would be the opposite, Steve Ross will have shown he was willing to stick with a guy even though it was obvious to many that the talent acquisition has not been up to snuff. I think those potential GMs would look at how Ross essentially absolved Ireland of any responsibility for personnel moves while Parcells was around, and they will like that. They would know the owner is understanding (and potentially a pushover). And meanwhile, I seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt any potential GM, for WHATEVER reason, would look at the Dolphins' having five picks in the first three rounds, with $50 million in cap space, as a NEGATIVE for the job's attractiveness. I don't care what spin anyone tries to put on that, that's a selling point and nobody is going to convince me otherwise.