The Subtle Redefinition of the Miami Dolphins Player

lol. Yeah, there's nothing there about character for a QB, but there would be for RB or WR. You could not have typed that with a straight face.

 

Did you not say that Pats won because of character?

Again, character is an intangible. It's like when someone says a player is "scrappy".

 

So what you're saying is Parcells didn't care at all about character?

 

I wrote that the Patriots didn;t have HoF players, sans Brady. I still stand by that. They are ALL talented. Once again, every.single.NFL.player.is.talented.

However

Jerry Rice= character

T.O= bad character

Both guys are most liking equally talented. Hell, TO is bigger and stronger and I bet faster than Rice ever was. soooooo...why was Rice so much better?

 

I said that the Patriots can win for so long because they have high character players. Character is not an intangible. It is measurable.

 

I'd take Jerry Rice because he was more productive. I'd also take Brady or Vick, even though Vick is the superior athlete. I'd also take Brandon Marshall over any receiver on the Dolphins roster right now. Hell, I'd probably take him over more than half the WR's in the league.

 

Are you really so blinded by your Ireland hate boner you can't see the difference in saying:

The Pats don't have the greatest players yet still win because of their character.

VS

You don't need talent only character to win a Super Bowl.

 

And how does one measure that? What's the unit of measurement for character? C'mon man.

 

This has nothing to do with Ireland. The Dolphin had **** talent before he got here. He just continued the trend.

 

So yuo agree with me then? You said that you'd take Brady over Vick even though Vick has more talent, right? What do you think seperates Brady from Vick?

Marshall was taking up too much money and space for Philbin to be able to draft, trade, bring in his high caliber, high character WR. That WR has yet to be found, granted. However, Philbin is showing that he has confidence that he'll get it done.

 

That's a good one to end on.

 

Yup. Parcells is crap.

 

I'm not so sure. I think a good balance of both is the key. It seems so do the winning coaches and FO's in the NFL. Talent, as I wrote before, is common in every NFL player. I'd much rather have a Zach Thomas than a Vernon Gholston...wouldn't you?

Why?

Character

 

Well, for starters, not being arrested, not hitting woman, being a team player, etc etc. The list goes on and on.

 

Coaches that don't want to deal with your ****.

 

I understand that, I just think it's overrated.

Did the Saints team that won the Super Bowl exhibit high character when they had a bounty system in place, or were they so good they would've won either way?

You could argue that every player in the NFL has solid character, because they were able to make it that far through hard work and dedication. And of course, if all things were equal, you would take the upstanding citizen over the bad guy. Everyone would. But I'd rather have the bad guy who plays at a Pro Bowl level than the Boyscout who's 3rd string.

 

Absolutely, I'd say that system was galvanizing for the team. They were working together, not against one another.

But its not just about hard work and dedication. Its about caring about the team and winning before caring about yourself. And really when it comes down to it, "bad guy" can really entail a lot of things. In the case of Brandon Marshall, I think he put himself before the team. I don't think you can win with guys like that. If its just about guys getting in trouble off the field, its not as big of a concern to me.

 

No, you can't argue that every player has solid character. Some get by on talent alone and those are the ones that usually either wind up creating havoc on their team or becoming huge busts. See: Brandon Marshall for the former and JMac for the latter.

 

Ah, so what the Saints did was OK because it was for the betterment of the team.

I don't know how you can excuse off the field stuff. That seems pretty inconsistent to me. I'm with you though, there, btw.

 

He never said that he agreed with it. lol...I suspect you know that, but you're using strawmen again.

Anyhow, what the Saints did was not right. However, it made them a better, cohesive unit and in turn they WON. That's the point. A player like Brandon Marshall who is a "me first" player will not unite a team.

 

Yes, I used a strawman to his strawman.

You're using one as well by saying that character is so important, yet guys doing an unprofessional and very low character thing helped the team. Which is it?

 

I think camaraderie is very important.

I'm not entirely excusing off the field stuff. Off the field stuff can be bad if its a distraction to the team. I don't have a hard and fast rule. I do think that Brandon Marshall was not good for the team.

 

Still pretty "low character" to try and injure players for money, if you ask me. But I guess you're right about camaraderie.

 

Ginn was just as behind on running routes as Gates. Ginn got by in college by being completely faster than everyone else.

Ginn was and is a much better football player than Gates.

 

I thought I cleared up your misunderstanding when I differentiated between football character and character? The former is needed to win while the latter is prefered to win.

 

It's not as much as high character that they have as it is smart.

 

Ah, I see. Sorry, too many characters. I got confused as to which character was the correct football character required for winning. My bad. #Character

 

It's not just about character & professionalism. Being a "football player" is also about having the instincts, football smarts, heart, tenacity, motor, grittiness, and desire to actually play the game rather than simply being a combine warrior you're tossing a pair of pads on. These guys are football players first and foremost, and that's how they approach both the game and this part of their life, whereas "non football players" either lack the intangibles that allow their gifted athleticism to translate on the field or they don't commit themselves to their craft, preferring to devote too much time to partying, spending money, balling, showcasing their stomach tattoos, etc.

Respectfully, you seem to try and paint the picture as if it's either black or white, which isn't the case as there are plenty of "football players" who have talent. The Packers, Patriots, Ravens, Niners, Steelers, Texans, Giants, and Falcons don't seem to have a problem with success by using this approach.

 

.... and you can add "consistency" to the table of good-character, professional "football players" as well, Shou. I'd rather have a player who is consistently good over a more talented player who is great one game but a liability another.

 

I know what you are saying here, but Irvin stabbing Everett McIver in the neck was about as far out of line with a teammate as one could possibly imagine.

 

That is actually a horrible example. Payton was reportedly absolutely livid about it and acted like the very epitome of the spoiled me-first athlete after that game.

http://deadspin.com/walter-payton/

 

They kept Legadonothing. I rest my case.

 

EVERY team in the NFL dreams of football players who take their job seriously and hope the leaders on the team take charge of the culture the coaches and front office desire; but in reality, it will never be the case. Men are men, and men will be boys, inside and out of the locker room.

This Philbin thing on Gates has me a little concerned. I understand your point; the culture. But we cannot say with any certainty that Gates would not have eventually fit into that culture. He certainly did well with some chances in the preseason, as shown in the in-depth analysis by CK on Gates. The guy did not see much action at receiver last year, but did contribute decently in KO returns with a 24.8 yards/KOR average (which was middle of the pack with players of 30+ returns). His average was better than Josh Cribbs and Devin Hester (other notable players of 30+ KORs in 2011). The big stat, ZERO fumbles. Cribbs had 3, Hester had 4 (respectively).

Philbin seems to be slowly plucking away players from the Parcells-Sparano era, which is fine. But when players can contribute and have talents that are not "everyday NFL" (ala Gates and Davis), sometimes you give those players a little longer leash, screw the culture. Coaches coach, and they should coach 'em up. It seems as if Philbin and Co. are not even trying. Get rid of the difficult players. It shows a weakness, and lack of courage. Build the culture by transforming players. Whip talent into shape and others will buy into that culture.

From all accounts, it does not seem that Gates was a problem child. Of course, we are not always privy to the behind-the-scenes stuff, so who knows?

And we kind of touched on this in another post by you, shou. Ireland submitted. Gates could have helped this team, if even on KORs. And with the lack of talent at WR on this team, I think that you give the guy with the heat in his feet a little more leeway and develop him. That's why they hire all of those damned coaches.

Ireland folded, and may have an out if this team does not look so well (even if it is interviewing for another GM position with another team in the future). He could say he worked with Philbin to help him build the team in his (Philbin's) vision. In another post, it was agreed upon that a GM should work closely with the coach with regard to players, but, again, it is ultimately up to the GM on which players stay or go. Ireland wussed out on this one.

My problem with Philbin is that there is room for development for some of these players, but he seems to be playing favorites (example: "Butterball" Lane). He even intimated that he "does not want to play favorites" (with that comment, he just did) on Hard Knocks. Only using Lane as an example only. We all can agree that this kid SHOULD be on the team. But the guy was given a shot after being out of football for 3 years, and happened to be a good nugget. Ireland has a decent track record of finding those nuggets, as well, especially when given time to develop.

I wonder if Wake would have been part of the "culture club" if he had only come in last year?

Philbin wants "football players", but the opinion of definition is subjective. All coaches want football players. It just seems that Philbin wants his football players. It is not like some of these guys are sloppy seconds.

 

I heard that too, and it is not true. The Jets also cut a punter when they signed the new punter.

 

I think gates isn't here because he's got some issues, along with not being able to play the position overall.

 

if you have the right mentality, they will probabaly give you the time to develop if your talented.