So who would you like to see replace Jeff Ireland next year?

Oh I know we have some great fans. I would agree that most who call the sports talk shows don't really sound as knowledgeable about the team as DJ said, but I don't think it's because they are lesser fans. I believe it is because they get their info FROM those shows and most of the South Florida sports radio itself is terrible.

I think he has a point about the stadium...it is pretty bad. When Arthur Blank/Blanc? Took over Atlanta he asked the players what would boost their morale. They actually said that a full stadium would immensely help the team. So while I don't think those are the main reasons we are stuck in a rut, they do factor in. Maybe DJ places a bit too much emphasis on certain things but I do enjoy reading his posts at least.

Though I HATED the Parcells hire from day one.

 

With all our draft picks and cap space, next year could be about Miami putting its foot in the door and telling the rest of the league to hold on a minute. Perhaps this year was to be more about letting the new coaching staff settle in and letting them see what they have to work with (see who fits their schemes, who doesn't, and who perhaps rises to the occasion) before throwing all kinds of FA money around that we can't get back w/o a penalty.

 

I actually really like the way Ireland drafts. In his own words these last two drafts are the only ones he had full control over. I actually believe in 2-3 years we are going to be looking back at this draft saying "Wow we made out like bandits"

 

Where is that quote Alex?, maybe we should have it fu&$ ing bronzed and stickied.

 

IF Ireland is fired do not be surprised if Mike Sherman is our new GM. Just a guess.

 

It was in an article right after draft time. I wish I remembered exactly, but Ireland was speaking about the process and the war room etc and his words were that "This is only the second draft I've had full control over" perhaps not word for word but extremely close, and the meaning was obvious.

I'll see if I can find it.

 

I'd like to see you replace Ireland, LBsFinest. you seem to know a lot about the job.

 

I don't want to start a back and forth debate, but let's say our picks 1-4 pan out. It doesn't matter if you believe they will, we are just pretending here. Alright now let's pretend 90% of the receivers drafted from round 2 on amount to very little. Was it still a mistake?

 

No one who wants to claim Ireland is terrible wants to sit down and do this. I'd really love to see someone with those kind of beliefs go through and look on a pick by pick basis of how this stuff really works.

 

Considering all those teams have had a top level quarterback and have been consistent playoff contenders I don't really think they're any less shiny for those bad decisions. Those rosters are all still pretty stocked with talent. Miami's isn't and I don't think there's any arguing that. Two of those guys had non-football related injuries (Kindle, Jones), and a lot of those guys were drafted to replace established veterans (Sherrod - Chad Clifton; Cobb - Jennings, Nelson, Driver; Heyward - Brett Keisel, Aaron Smith; Worilds - Harrison, Woodley; Kruger - Jarrett Johnson, Terrell Suggs). Some, like Sherrod, haven't stepped up to the plate. The main difference though is that Miami didn't really have, and still doesn't have, a long list of veterans that Miami's draft picks were brought in to replace. Miami's had a number of guys with the potential to seize starting roles and/or productive roles - Henne, Merling, Gates, Turner, Thomas, etc. - and they haven't been able to do so. I think that's more troubling than some of the misses you mentioned above.

Of course, some people will say that certain players were Parcells picks, or that the coaching staff didn't develop them properly. Ireland still had a hand in the scouting of the players, and the selection of the coaches, which I think many people don't account for and simply write it off as Parcells and Sparano.

As I've said though, I like some of the moves Ireland's made. I like that he's stockpiling picks and freeing up cap space (albeit by getting rid of past mistakes linked to himself). But, I'm just not sure at all if he's the guy that you want with the franchise going under a looming massive transformation. I'd rather take one of the guys from Green Bay, Baltimore, New York, Pittsburgh, that have been able to assemble a talented team over a long course of time. Jeff Ireland hasn't done that in Miami. I'd argue his Dallas teams were good, but not great (when's the last time they won a playoff game?). I just don't trust Ireland to pull that off. Running a scouting department? Yeah, you could do worse. Pulling all the strings of the franchise from a personnel aspect? No.

 

The truth is that the previous two drafts also stack up pretty well against most other teams. The success rate for NFL draft picks just isn't that high. Again, to compare the Dolphins to the teams these supposed "saviors" come from, even the Dolphins/Ireland's misses don't look that bad.

Henne wasn't a huge success, but he was waayyyy better than Brian Brohm who GB took a pick before Henne and he was waayyy better then Kevin O'Connell, who the Pats took a round later.

Pat White didn't do anything for us, but Clint Sintim and Paul Kruger, who the Giants and Ravens took in the 2nd that year, haven't done much more.

Patrick Turner was a bust, but not really any moreso than Rameses Barden (who the Giants took 2 picks earlier) or Brandon Tate (who the Pats took 4 picks earlier) or Derrick Williams (who the Lions took 5 picks earlier). And Limas Sweed, Malcolm Kelly and James Hardy were picked a round earlier the year before and were no better.

Shawn Murphy was a bust but not really any more of one than Marcus Smith (taken 4 picks earlier by Baltimore) or Jeremy Thompson (taken 8 picks earlier by GB) or Bruce Davis (taken 22 picks earlier by Pitt).

Etc. And people shouldn't kid themselves that the "gurus" here would have necessarily done any better either. Some of them are on record as to who they would have taken at the time and its not always pretty. It is hard. People generally have unrealistic expectations for draft success.

 

Right. Keep telling yourself that as Wilson runs a train on defenses and Tannehill gets benched when Garrard comes back.

 

Have you watched the preseason at all? Seriously I see you aren't from down here, I don't mean that in a rude way. Tannehill has shown more poise in four preseason games than Henne did in multiple seasons.

 

The comparison was between Russell Wilson and Ryan Tannehill. What does Chad Henne have to do with that? It you wanna debate the merits of Russell Wilson and Ryan Tannehill, let's do that. I still think Tannehill is a bad QB and has more upside in the slot.

 

Of course, you have no idea whatsoever as to what role those guys played in drafting those QBs or the players who made those teams playoff contenders. We have no idea if these non-decisionmakers would have made the same good decisions that those teams made.

That absolutely can be argued. Putting aside a few positions, there is a lot of talent on this team. Compare our OL and DL with these other teams on a player by player basis based on "talent" and I think you'll find that we have more than most. Tannehill has tons of talent. Reggie Bush is loaded with talent. Karlos Dansby has a lot of talent. As does Sean Smith. All of those teams have holes too.

Those are silly excuses. If those teams had no need for those guys they shoudn't have drafted them. If they are great players but they just have a bunch of other great players ahead of them, then they should trade them for meaningful compensation. That hasn't happened.

All of those other misses had opportunities to seize playing time. Every 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick gets that opportunity.

I don't think there is any indication that Ireland selected the coaches. Sparano was clearly Parcells' choice and Sparano chose his own assistants (except maybe a few who Parcells "pushed" on him.

Again, we have no indication as to what role any of these assistant GM or VPs of scouting has in the assembly of those players. We know they were there. That is it. We don't know that they would have made the same good decisions that those teams made. We don't know that they would hav made the same bad ones either, but we can't assume they wouldn't have and if any of those picks that I listed had been made for the Dolphins they would be roundly criticized here, and rightfully so.

 

Well it's a whole lot easier to just identify a single scapegoat and heap the negativity on him, without doing the research to base it on anything objective.

 

I'm not debating Wilson vs Tannehill. It has no more merit than RGIII vs Wilson or Weeden vs Wilson or Luck vs Wilson. What Tannehill does shouldn't be tied to what Wilson does in any way. I'm more interested in why you believe Tannehill is so bad when he has shown the exact opposite.

Henne was brought up because in his entire career here he never learned to read a blitz, change a play or look off a defensive player. All areas Tannehill has already proven very competent in. Especially for a rookie.

 

If that's your stance, then I'll just agree to disagree. Those teams are clearly more capable of scoring points and winning games than the Miami Dolphins have been during Jeff Ireland's tenure. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore are accruing talent to replace guys ahead of them - I'm not sure how that's a "silly excuse".

I'd take the Packers, Giants, and Steelers receiving corps over Miami's. I'd take Haloti Ngata over any player on Miami's defense. I'd take the front seven of the Ravens, sans Terrell Suggs over Miami's. Pittsburgh's as well. Just purely on numbers, both statistically, and in personnel, Miami's secondary doesn't stack up well. We certainly don't have a game-changer like Charles Woodson, Troy Polamalu, or Ed Reed. Sean Smith is the best you can come up with, but is he really better than Ike Taylor, Cory Webster, or Tramon Williams? Eh, if you consider him to be, it's probably not by much.

Certainly the talent we have to put around Tannehill isn't as great as any of those teams.

I'll give Jeff Ireland credit. The Dolphins do have talented players on certain units of the team, though I'm not sure Miami ends up with the best player. I'd take Aaron Rodgers, Ray Rice, Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Jermichael Finley, Ed Dickson, Maurkice Pouncey, Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, Jason Pierre-Paul, Charles Woods, Ed Reed, and Troy Polamalu over the Miami equivalent at each of those positions. I mean, Jake Long is really about the only individual player on any unit where you can honestly say Miami's got the best player. And we've seen teams prove you can win without elite left tackles in recent years. I wouldn't consider Jermon Bushrod, Max Starks, or Dave Diehl eliet. I also think you can go unit-by-unit at just about every position and Miami's going to come up on the short end of the stick other than maybe running back, perhaps quarterback when all of those 4 are healthy, but it appears that one or two of those guys won't be in Miami come next week.

Certainly those teams are doing something more right than Miami is when it comes to acquiring talented personnel, their records bear it out.

 

Wilson may or not be better, we won't know for a bit, but what in the hell have you seen that makes you say Tannehill is a bad QB?

 

Kudos to Ireland for claiming Armstrong when people were wondering why not trade for him. He didn't have too.

 

Probably saved a low-round draft pick doing that, since I suspect the Redskins knew of our situation at WR and thought they could exploit it for a pick as well as Slaton. Ireland likely did the Slaton-for-Armstrong trade in effect, without giving up the pick.

 

Amazing how Joe Philbin is willing to stake his career on a guy you think should be playing receiver.

 

Those teams have scored more points but that doesn't mean those assistant GM prospects have anything to do with why. Coaching plays a big role, as does QB. Russ Ball, for example, got to GB in 2008, long after Aaron Rodgers did. He also wasn't responsible for hiring McCarthy. I tend to think McCarthy and Rodgers have a lot to do with why the Packers are much better at scoring points. My understanding is that he is more of a business guy/administrator than a talent evaluator anyhow. Same for Omar Khan.

Every team is doing that, including the Dolphins. That is how the NFL works. For example, as you acknowledge, the Dolphins appear to have taken Miller as a potential successor for Bush if he leaves next year.

Yeah, me too. But from a talent standpoint, I'd take our OL over any of theirs. Not that our OL has put it all together yet, but from a talent standpoint I think our OL has more than any of those teams'. And at WR, Ireland did acquire some talent there (Marshall) but Philbin made it clear he didn't want him, so Ireland got what he could for him. This coaching staff has been pretty clear that they don't want a classic "No. 1" receiver.

I wouldn't. I'd take Wake over Ngata.

That's fine, although arguable. Our front seven is basically the same as last year, minus Langford (but I think Odrick is just as good and will get most of those snaps). I don't see major front 7 changes for the Ravens (except the subtraction of Suggs, but admittedly haven't followed them that closely this offseason) or the Steelers. Last year, the Dolphins had more sacks than the Steelers and the Ravens (if you subtract Suggs' 16 sacks and replacing them with an "average" 5-6). The Dolphins run defense was just a bit worse than the Ravens and was better than the Steelers'. But the point isn't to argue that detail, but just that there are not such huge differences there and many of the top players on those other defenses got there long before Decosta or Khan had anything to say about those acquisitions.

Charles Woodson was on the Pack before Russ Ball got there. Have they drafted any great corners since he got there? (whether he had any say in the decision or not) Similarly, Ed Reed was drafted in Baltimore when Decosta was a Mid-West Area Scout, but Ed Reed didn't play his college ball in the midwest. Khan isn't a scout so likely had little role in the decision to draft Polamalu.

Certainly the talent we have to put around Tannehill isn't as great as any of those teams.

Sure, those teams have some talented players, but these GM prospects had little or no role in acquiring it. Is there any great player on any of those teams that we can confidently say was drafted or acquired as a result of any meaningful input by Decosta, Khan, Ball, etc.? Anyone?

Those teams have been better teams. They have not necessarily been better at talent acquisition since 2008 and their better records since 2008 isn't entirely due to talent anyhow. Do you think the 2010 Packer team that barely snuck into the playoffs would have won the Super Bowl with the coaching staff we had here? How about the 9-7 Giants that barely got into the playoffs last year?

 

Right, you would've instead ignored the overwhelming need at tackle and preferred to start a guy at RT whom we just cut.
Yeah, you wouldn't have been ridiculed for that move.

I have NO IDEA why you believe a non franchise 2nd round receiver added to a group of roughly 10 pass catchers (WR, TE, RB combined) is more important than finding a starting RT for the future when the only other rostered tackle is Yeatman. That would be the most irresponsible move in the history of irresponsibility. Does a WR block for the run game? Does a WR protect your QB? No, he doesn't. Insufficient protection and lack of a run game hinders a QBs development significantly more than being without one 2nd round receiver.

You see, what you seem to not understand is that Ireland was in a position of having to choose the lesser of 2 evils between WR or RT. No matter which one he chose he would unfortunately have to leave a hole at the other position. The problem with your thinking is that you believe a non-franchise, starting receiver in a WCO is more important than a starting RT. When you can prove to me that you're right (rather than just running your mouth), I'll take you seriously.

So, go do some homework, find some credible sources that support your tirade [that a non-franchise, starting receiver in a WCO is more important than a starting RT]. Then come back with that info and try to EARN some of those Fist Bump thingies you were blabbing about. Otherwise, everything you say is essentially opinionated drivel.

 

Wouldn't that be a personal foul? Illegal use of hands.... and such.

 

I already know. Tannehill throws erratic balls, holds on too long, locks onto receivers. Take your pick of those issues. Wait until the bullets really fly, you'll see. Russell Wilson is short....that is the only knock on him. If he was 6'2" he was the 2nd QB taken, and it isn't even close.

What do you see that says Tannehill will be good?

 

Amazing how Garrard was gonna be the starter until he got hurt...nice revisionist history though.

 

jeff ireland.

 

There are a lot of options Philbin could be pursuing other than Tannehill, and you have no idea whether Tannehill would've beaten out Garrard anyway.

 

Neither do you so come off it already.

 

Tannehill throws erratic balls
Not close to truth. Part of the reason he's starting is because he's putting the ball where it needs to be.

holds on too long
Based on what exactly? He hasn't taken a lot of sacks and he's easily one of the best in the league throwing on the run already.

locks onto receivers
lol. He's looked defenders off numerous times, yet another reason he's starting.

I think you've watched Moore and thought he was Tannehill.

Again, no one is arguing Wilson isn't awesome. In the draft day thread I believe I was the first to predict he'd start over Flynn.

 

What I do know is that Tannehill is starting, and Joe Philbin is staking a good deal of his career on him when he could be pursuing many other options.

I suppose if he could only talk to you, however, he would see the error of his ways and move him to receiver.

 

Maybe YOU need to watch and try again. His one touchdown pass came against some non-contributors from Tampa. Here are highlights against Atlanta....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPlQ-krkb-A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

I would respectfully disagree. IMO our roster appears un-stocked b/c we don't yet have a QB playing at a top 5 level capable of making the team seem significantly more talented than it is. NE isn't any more talented than us IMHO, but they have Tom Brady. Hopefully Tannehill develops into that type of franchise QB.

IMHO, as we sit, without Marshall & Davis, we're an average to slightly above average talented team. We were talented enough last year where we could've easily gone 10-6 or 9-7 had we not had: a lame duck coach, 4 blown 4th quarter leads (where we were up by 30+ points combined IIRC), out of shape Vernon Carey forcing us to grab a crappy replacement RT, a backup QB most of the season (who took a few weeks to settle in), and a defense that showed up incredibly out of shape & unprepared but then was a top 3 defense the final 10 games (including #1 passing D).

We still have a top 10 defense with every player either in his prime or ascending, and I say this b/c the loss of Vontae is offset by having SS and hopefully a few others turn the corner into impact players along with the addition of Marshall. We have a massively improved offensive scheme and hopefully a major upgrade at HC. IMO the 2012 draft class will determine if we become an average talent team or ascend the ranks of the talented, with 2013 FA & draft potentially pushing us over the top, especially if Ireland has another 2005 Cowboys'esque draft of Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff, Marcus Spears, Kevin Burnett, Chris Canty, and Marion Barber. What does the offense need outside of the young guys we have developing? 1 dependable playmaking WR? Ireland can add that in FA and then do what he does best---- go to town on defense and use most of the draft to turn our unit into the league's most formidable.

Hypothetically, even if Ireland were in charge of the scouting, he had to get guys who fit the schemes we run. That's setting anyone up for failure when Henning is the OC, Sparano the HC, and with a Parcellian blueprint that seemed outdated IMO.

You just named 3 great defensive teams (which Ireland, IMO, is outstanding at identifying talent and fitting it to the scheme) and a team which our HC just came from. I'm guessing that Philbin being here is not just about coaching but also about bringing in a type of offense that Ireland feels most comfortable finding talent for b/c I'm guessing he has strengths and weaknesses as a talent assessor, and it's quite possible that identifying players for Henning's bland, run-oriented, possession-based offense didn't fit to Ireland's strengths, where as it's quite possible that finding more athletic guys, zone blockers, and playmakers for a WCO is right up his alley. Only the 2011-2013 draft will tell IMO. These 3 years will define his career as a GM, IMO.

 

That has nothing to do with points you made.

 

Starting by default doesn't equal hitching a career to a guy, no matter how many times you say it.

 

Delete...you kids have fun with your Tannehill :fap: fest

 

And it may not, but it sure is a long way from putting him at receiver.