yup, shouldn't we be praising him more, I mean we are tired of being mediocre and some of these players had something to do with it, the flat prformances, no emotion, consitently, maybe his house cleaning is very calculated.. Like I've always said, it'sgoing to take special players mentally, to win in this town and in that stadium.
I don't think this has been said but, Polian after his visit here was seemingly gushing over Vontaes talent, just wonder if there wasn't some communication between the parties.
great post, Shou. Great analogy. If you add an untrained dog to a pack of trained ones, the pack will whip the outsider into shape & make him conform to the pack, or else he'll never be accepted. However, if you add an untrained dog to a group of untrained ones, there will likely be chaos and lack of conformity. So first you gotta strip away the untrained ones and establish a trained group, and then you can begin introducing the wildcards.
I'd like to know if posters believe that Vontae has seemed to display any more maturity recently than he did when we drafted him. ??? Personally, I don't think he has, which is why I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon.
it's bigger than some performance on the field though no?, this is about trying to turnaround some very serious culture issues, and players who aren't smart, or are very lazy, are impeding that process.
I was in love with what Vontae could of become if he was focused on his craft, that detector has not moved in the right direction..he's only 24, so I'm battling two things, do certain coaches have better abilities to connect and motivate, or is what you and Sho are talking about necessary happenings in building a winning culture.
Another good analogy. And to top it all off, you have NFL team culture "perfection" when you have a pack of trained dogs who don't feel "trained" (i.e., blindly compliant), but who have bought in to the coaching regime's philosophy and leadership to the extent that they act "trained" (i.e., willingly compliant). Tom Brady and Bill Belichick are the best example. Brady buys in to Belichick's program, leads his teammates with respect to it, and thereby creates a team culture in that vein. Notice they've had a dynasty. That's how powerful all that is IMO.
Well mega dollar Karlos Dansby was so dedicated he showed up 25 pounds overweight , he must have thought this was 1965 and he couldn't get away from the packing plant or the insurance office long enough to work out. Zero excuse for that and he is supposed to be a leader , holding other players accountable. That is a lack of work ethic to me. They were included because they were not professional enough imo , and were sought after and a premium was paid to acquire them so whoever did that must have felt it was worth the cost. I see a common thread , and to date that thread has unraveled. You miss on high end players that cost you big time , both in dollars and acquisition costs , you end up .... well like the Miami Dolphins.
Good points , so Miami led by Ireland has failed to date then. He must have been told he had the same epiphany that Sparano did last year.
I'd say that Vontae only being 24 means that he still has a few more years of immaturity ahead of him before he gets it, if it even happens then. Personally, I'd focus on establishing the culture first b/c not only can it sustain itself once it's established, but it allows us to take risks on high upside guys AND have a better chance of those them paying off. Look at the other teams who offer SB type high-accountability cultures where you either fit in or you're done: off the top of my head (feel free to jump in or disagree) Baltimore, GB, San Fran, NE, the old Indy with Peyton, Houston seems like this now, Atlanta, Giants. Who else? Perfect example IMO: Look at how the Giants tried to conform Amukamara by dunking him in an ice bath b/c the pack wants to teach him to have more of an edge.
Lots of teams have failed when you compare them to the New England Patriots. It's tough to get all that lined up. You need players who play well and have leadership ability, one of them being a quarterback, and a coaching regime whose program those leaders believe in, follow, and disseminate to their teammates, which creates your team culture. It's not easy to get all those stars aligned, but I do know that Joe Philbin and company are making the kinds of moves right now that head that direction.
great point to make the distinction there. It's hard to buy in on your own accord when others aren't buying in with you (even if it's b/c they're simply too irresponsible to do so), no? IMO this is one of those times where, if most of the entire team doesn't buy in from the start, it can thwart or damage the effort. It definitely helps that we have a few alpha males buying in who are pack-leader caliber. Long, Pouncey, Bush, Tannehill, and Wake are definitely pack leaders or future ones. I hope Dansby has become one. Believe it or not, IMO, Sean Smith might develop into the most outward, vocal pack leader of the group. We need one at WR.
I mentioned it a couple of weeks ago (I quoted it from King's MMQB). Here's a conspiracy theory: Wonder if he (Polian) and Ireland kind of got together, boosted Vontae's grade knowing it would be printed, just to get back at the franchise who fired him and his son? Funny how things work out, though. Polian gives Vontae high marks in an interview from one of the most-read sportswriters, and a few weeks later, the guy is traded to his former team. And Ireland not only gets that cruddy 6th round offer (conditional, I know), but brings it home with a 2nd. I was not a fan of the trade because I know Vontae's skillset is not found every draft, but given Coyle's history with secondaries, I feel a little more comfortable.
Well what you have to combat that are a head coach and GM who are on the same page and working in tandem to fuel the effort. The team just learned that if you disappoint the head coach by behaving in opposition to his philosophy, it's entirely possible the GM will trade you. That's a lot of power staring at the players there. Now, I do think it's important that the players actually believe in the coaching regime and aren't simply being "scared" into following along with it, but I do think Philbin has the intelligence, the personality, and the vision to create something players will want to follow and be a part of, much like players feel that way about Belichick and his program and want to play for the Patriots (e.g., Junior Seau, Wes Welker, etc.).
Dolphins wanted Ty Hilton, or Lavon and a 2nd. "Wow" Dov Kleiman @NFL_RealUpdates #Dolphins asked for rookie WRs LaVon Brazil and T.Y Hilton from the #Colts in the Vontae Davis trade and were rejected, per @ArmandoSalguero
Yeppers. Side note: as much of a fan of Brandon Marshall's as I was, he's an outspoken alpha male who could've been a real detractor to Philbin's attempt, especially after hearing Philbin reference a desire to spread the ball around rather than revolving the passing game around a #1 receiver. Mr Iwant100catches wouldn't have been very happy considering GB's leading reception grabber the past 3 years: 68 catches in 2011, 76 in 2010, 70 in 2009.
Always love a good conspiracy theory however, as CK pointed out somewhere before the trade went down, Pagano and Grigson (Colts GM) were high on Davis when he was drafted by us. I don't think they needed convincing by Polian. Doesn't hurt VD's value of course to have Polian give a high opinion of VD.
You win with talented football players and good football schemes. They don't all have to be perfect in character. Good Coaches can manage varying personality traits just as Belichik did with Randy Moss and his history of being lazy. Hopefully Philbin proves he can too instead of cutting/trading every talented player with any degree of flaw.
Personally, I don't look at an NFL team any differently than I would any other job where you're tasked with assembling a group of employees working together to accomplish a common goal, and not just accomplish it but do so in a highly successful, efficient level. Who's more likely to achieve your goals? A group that's responsible, accountable, trustworthy, and dedicated or one that's not? Vontae doesn't fit into that IMO, and it sucks losing a talented guy like him, especially when he seems like a genuinely good guy who often seems charismatic. However, Sean Smith seems to be buying in, and he's taking it seriously (even chopped the hair to look more the part), so if bringing Philbin in means losing a talented underachiever while watching SS mature and blossom, I'm ok with that.
He ranked 27th when he was a rookie. Smith ranked 28th that year. In 2010 he ranked 11th with a rating of 9.0, while Smith ranked 9th with a rating of 11.0. That year, he could have made a sound argument that as a pair, they were the best in the league. The only pairs that year ranked higher if you were to add their rankings together, were in KC with Flowers (3rd) and Carr (15th), and Tampa Bay with Barber (4th) and Talib (13th). So, it would be Miami, 20, KC, 18, TB, 17. Lower the better. Also in 2010, Davis led the team in defensive snaps with 1025. Smith only played 660 that year at corner and 104 at safety. When you combine Smith's safety snaps his overall rating dropped from 11.0 to 9.4 . Then last year the wheels sort of came off at the start. We had Smith gutting it out by playing through cramps early on, but ending up being one of the worst corners ratings wise for the season. His -15.1 ranked 105th of 109 corners. His coverage rating of -15.4 was 2nd worst among corners. His snaps went way up though as his 1097 ranked 2nd on the defense. Even with his poor start last season, Davis still managed an overall plus rating of 0.5. His coverage rating of +1.5 was the only plus rating on the Dolphins. That year though he more or less swapped places for total snaps with Smith as he only played 699. 2011 seems to be the anomaly for both as for ratings. After both had been much higher in their first two years. Means nothing now though. I don't like that Ireland chose to give up on a talented player, who even as the 3rd corner was a pseudo starter considering he'd see the field more than the 3rd LB would. That's presuming he'd have remained as the 3rd corner all season long too. I see a lot of theories thrown out in an attempt to paint a shiny picture of this trade, and from 2013 on maybe the team will come out ahead, depending on who gets selected with that 2nd round pick. It is talent accrual game to me though. You win by accruing more talent than your opponents, then coaching it up. I don't see the trade at this point of following along those lines, at least as 2012 goes. Now Ireland may surprise us and make a trade for a proven starting quality WR to help Tannehill's development, but if he sits on them, no matter how it's sliced, the 53 man roster in 2012 is weaker without Davis.
Randy Moss conformed b/c NE had an established culture, emphasis on established. B/c it was already established and successful, Moss wanted a ring and bought in ...... which is something Vontae didn't do. ... I'm not sure why you're comparing one of the most productive receivers of all time (a surefire HOFer) to an underachieving corner who hasn't even made a ProBowl. Btw, you show me a group of talented underachievers playing in a good scheme, and I'll show you a team lucky to finish 8-8. Also, "managing different personality traits" has nothing to do with dealing with immature, irresponsible players who impede the team's goals.
Can someone explain to me what "buying in" means? Come game 1 of the regular season when Vontae is in great shape, and is their #1 corner and making plays, will that mean he bought into his new coach?
If you are responding to me, I specified weaker this season. In the long run, MAYBE the team will be stronger, depending on how the 2nd round pick traded for gets used. I would like to see the proof that Davis was making other players coast, because of his own alleged coasting. From what I saw, ever since he'd been on the team, when he stepped between the white lines, Davis was the best corner the team had, in every facet of corner play.
IMO this was a 2 part deal: 1. addition by subtraction. remove a player who contradicts the HC's overwhelming goal of establishing a solid, dedicated, professional, winning culture. 2. get solid return value. 2nd & 6th rounder. The addition by subtraction will hopefully make us better by itself over the long haul. If we can get great return on the 2nd rounder, it's all the better, and if the 6th becomes a contributor then that's just icing on the cake IMO.
that's a loaded question b/c you're stating things that have yet to happen in order to coincide with your argument. Buying in is when you get a team full of players dedicating themselves AS A TEAM toward one common goal, a championship, rather than individualistic goals like money and playtime. Buying in means you're accepting that your life is basically about football, 12 months a year, not just during the season. Players who buy in have each other's backs. They will themselves to play at a higher level out of both fear of not letting teammates down and the reward of being accepted and praised by them. They hold each other accountable for their actions. A team full of players who bought in is a powerful thing. It always has been, and it always will be. History is littered with teams that bought in and won against the odds despite being outmatched/out-talented. However, compromising your team by being immature, making poor decisions, and showing up out of shape does not help the team work toward a common goal. It let's your teammates down, and players who let their teammates down aren't likely to have teammates bust their butts for them in return. Vontae didn't buy in, and considering how many warnings he's had since last year, it seems like it's in his nature not to.
IF...Davis was underachieving, he was still the best all around corner in Miami from the first day he stepped on the field til the day he was traded. If he is/was underachieving, then Smith is too, even more so. Like you said yourself, a well coached team of just overachievers will get you a .500 record at best. Is that what we want? A team of modest but overachieving talent, with the personalities of boy scouts and Mormon missionaries who get us all the way to 8-8? I'd rather have good football players even if they have a mix of odd characters. Such as the Raiders when they had guys like Ted Hendricks, Lyle Alzado, and John Matuszak. Those guys were all great football players and they didn't conform to any set of rigid standards, nor did they effect the efforts negatively of their team mates, just because they may have seemed to get by on natural talent and not need to work as hard.
He didn't buy in based on what? I hope it that assertion is based on more than Hard Knocks. IMO, he bought in, based on his 100% effort whenever he stepped on the football field.
His coasting on talent certainly didn't help the defense show up prepared for the regular season and not out of shape. Perhaps a corner with slightly less talent but with more concern about his teammates' & team's success would've helped to organize those defensive guys in the offseason to prevent that nonsense from ever happening. I honestly don't care how well we looked on D the 2nd half of the season if they were slop during the 1st half and out of playoff contention. That's part of my whole point. If we had more guys already buying into the team and trying to build it's culture prior to 2011, we would've won more games last year, even w/o Vontae...... but we need more guys who will buy in and positively influence & inspire others, and less guys who won't. Perhaps it was easier for the unit to show up out of shape and unprepared b/c they saw the most talented player of the unit not giving 100% during the offseason, leaving them feeling they didn't have to either.
Alleged coasting on talent. If how he showed up last season had anything to do with it, then we better trade Smith, Burnett and Dansby asap too. They all struggled with conditioning early last season. Last year there was no regular offseason, with teammates working out together necessarily. During the lockout, many players were scattered to the 4 winds and working out, or not, on their own. So, I don't know that how the most talented player, Dansby, allowing himself to get overweight and show up out of shape effected others who were also working out on their own in other locations.
I don't think anyone can offer that. What it comes down to IMO is that you either believe that creating a culture of professionalism, and ridding yourself of players who don't live up to that early in the process of the development of the culture, is the right way to go, or you don't. That's about as close as we're going to get to believing in what this team has done with Vontae Davis.
So what we have is folks trying to rationalize the trade in their own minds in an attempt to feel better about the future prospects of this team. Nothing wrong with that I guess. We all deal with adversity in our own ways.
I'm not experiencing any adversity at all about this. I'm delighted about the trade. If you look back at the thread in which the trade of Vontae was being rumored and discussed before it happened, you'll see I was all for it, and I would've been all for it for less than what Ireland got in return.
Respectfully, bubs, I consider buying in involving much more than just what a player does when he steps on the field. Perhaps he did give 100%..... but 100% of what is more telling. Was it 100% of 70% of his potential?.... or was it 100% of 100% of his potential? Was his time off the field spent maximizing 100% of his potential, or was it spent keeping him plateau'd or even regressing? I didn't feel he was close to giving 100% of his potential, and I saw less last year as a whole than I did when he was a rookie IMO. His WPA, EPA/G, and Success Count have declined since his rookie year where he ranked 3rd WPA, 11th EPA/G, and 19th Success Count. (compared to 2011: 48th, 20th, 44th) Personally, I place as much emphasis on how much effort he gives off the field as he does on it, and I also look at how well he's helping other players maximize 100% of their potential, with the more talented the player, the greater the leadership role I'd expect, as well as the more I'd expect him to help maximize the talent of others....... but I sensed little or none of that from Vontae. I mean, with all due respect, how can an underachiever truly help others to mature & develop if he's having trouble with it himself?
but we gave them all a chance during the offseason to make an adjustment, buy in, and not repeat last year's fiasco. Vontae is the only one of the four who didn't IIRC, and Vontae is the only one of the four who showed up out of shape and seemingly undedicated IIRC. The others got with the program; Davis didn't. Respectfully, I don't think the Baltimore Ravens would use that as an excuse. Danbsy not only directly affected the team by having himself show up out of shape, but he indirectly affected the team by not being a leader capable of holding everyone else accountable during the offseason, keeping them motivated, and organizing defensive workouts. If you can get a few of your most talented defensive players doing that, others will buy in, and it eventually becomes difficult for others to reject it w/o an accompanying feeling of lack of acceptance, which no one likes. We have 11 starters on defense. I personally don't want one of those spots used up on an unprofessional, irresponsible player who cant help his team improve during the offseason, let alone himself.... and if he's demoted to a backup role for this very reason, then I'd rather trade him for picks that can be used on players who will.
Which part? The 1st part that makes sense?.... the 2nd and 3rd parts that makes sense?.... or the last part that contained a typo that I fixed?
I'm not disputing that at all..... but I'd be willing to bet we see SS leap past Vontae this year, become a team leader, and blossom into an upper echelon corner now that he's transforming himself into a dedicated, professional player & teammate. I hope Vontae's light comes on and he becomes a truly great player, but I would've also traded him for 2 picks knowing that this is year 4 and he still isn't treating it like a responsible professional. That was a typo. I meant to say "underachievers". A well coached team of talented underachievers should get you an 8-8 record at best.... and no, that's not what we want. I don't mind odd characters if it works well that way. Personality type isn't the issue. We're not talking about making everyone into a bunch of drones, and it's not about being the most proper or ethically advanced players. Those Raiders would've bled for that team and each other, on and off the field. Those guys bought into that team big time. They conformed to the standard of buying in. They conformed to the standard of placing team ahead of me IIRC. That's the conformity I'm talking about.... and Vontae actions showed that he hadn't bought into that.
