True, but having Luck doesn't mean they are going to win more games than last year on having Luck alone.
I think Philbin/Ireland got it right. There have been times Davis has looked good, but the reality is he gets burned a lot and does not have elite speed to make up for his mistakes. I don't think Davis is an elite CB - he is very inconsistent. But, the fact that he came in so out of shape with a fresh start under a brand new coaching staff really was a sign that Vontae was not ever going to "get it" in Miami. I don't think he ever would have reached elite status here but we'd have seen the same unreliability and inconsistency of the past into the future (further, Miami would soon have to be able to sign him to a new deal and that would be a big risk with a guy who played four years of mediocre football). Given all those factors - they got a very good deal and made the right deal at the right time. And, the other thing I like about this is it shows that Philbin is seeking a team that does things the right way. You do it the right way, you have the right work ethic, or they don't want you. I think that will make this a bit of a slow process (and much will depend on talent accumulation), but I think this is good. The staff and GM have to remain consistent. Character certainly had a part in this trade.
There needs to be a distinction between coaching up with regard to physical ability, and coaching up with regard to emotional issues. NFL coaching staffs are not comprised of guys who have the training to change people's personalities, and even if they were, the player's desire and willingness to work toward personality change would dictate how well that would work. For all we know this coaching staff did a bang up job of addressing Vontae Davis's emotional issues and it just didn't work. Let some other team struggle with that while we work on our culture of professionalism by getting rid of him.
I like how people are now pretending that the Colts don't have good players on defense. Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Antoine Bethea, and now Vontae Davis are good players to have on that side of the ball. Also, as usual, quality of quarterback play trumps quality of defensive play in terms of correlation to victory.
Thank you. Do you think with Coyle's input it was decided Marshall is more coachable than Vontae and therefore has a higher ceiling than he does now?
hmm... I guess I'm a believer in yesterday's Dave Hyde article. That Philbin is making the calls to a degree. Ex. The Brandon Marshall trade and the timing involved (Philbin takes job, within a week, Marshall takes to twitter about wanting to be reunited with Cutler). That Ireland would have rather kept both players if it were solely up to him.
My guess is that Davis' lack of professionalism drove Philbin crazy. I think that's one of Philbin's pet peeves. This is a guy who was bothered by CJ using the F-word too many times in an interview. And while CJ, like Davis was also undisciplined in his play (despite having shown the ability to make plays), he at least showed up in great shape and gave great effort on the practice field. IMO, short of a complete turnabout there was almost no chance that the team would re-sign Davis (or even made him an offer).
Worse and its not really close. As I posted in the Pagano thread: Arizona did move Marshall because he was mediocre at CB. Richard Marshall was moved from CB during week 9 last year. Before that he had negative rankings in 6 out of 7 games at CB, 5 of which PFF gave him an extremely negative grade. He committed 5 penalties, missed 4 tackles in those games. Week 1 vs Carolina: Targeted: 5 Completed: 3 YA: 47 Week 2 vs Washington: Targeted: 6 Completed 3 YA: 32 INT: 1 Passes Defensed: 1 For copyright reasons I cant post every game but rest assured, the washington game (with LOL@John Beck quarterbacking) was his highlight. The rest of the games were even worse then the Carolina game and he was merely a nickel corner. At FS, he compiled very good rankings in every game but 1, committed just 1 penalty while missing 4 tackles. In every facet of the game his play was better (run d, pass d, completion % against). Marshall was great here after being one of the worst CBs in the league through the first 8 weeks. The idea that Vontae Davis isnt any better now then when he entered is crazy. While I agree with Rafael's earlier assessment that Vontae does get by on natural ability a lot that just relates to my earlier point that Vernon Davis was exactly the same way for the first few years. It took a while to click. But Vontae has made noticeable improvements in his awareness, his tackling, and his strength (much better playing press coverage now). He still has a ton of upside and to give him away for a 2nd round pick is flat out idiotic. No he has an elite skillset. He needs to stop relying on that skillset and apply film study to games more imo. Physically he is gifted with the skillset to be a top 5 CB. Not in the AFC. In the entire league. I know they didnt already try to mentor and develop him because its only been a few months since Philbin was hired and that just isnt enough time to really do that. True or false: Vontae Davis has been a pretty good player for the first few years of his career? The stats say true and his game film says true. Jeff Ireland played it safe with this move. He got out of dodge instead of gambling on a player who could potentially be great. IMO if a player can potentially be great you gamble on greatness not gamble on the side of caution. Thats part of what brings your team to the next level.
That depends, are we counting injuries to the players I named? By the way, we as Dolphins fans should be well aware that how a team looks one year has no bearing on how it looks the next year. Those 2009 Dolphins really made those 2008 AFC East champion Dolphins proud, after all. You're welcome to believe the Colts will stink again this year, but you've yet to actually give reasons why.
We don't know how they will fit in the 34... it may take time to adjust. The transition time may take its toll longer than you anticipate. Bethea is good but outside of him and now Davis the Colts secondary is pretty bad. Jerraud Powers is decent but never healthy. And on offense they have an inconsistent offensive line, mediocre receivers with an aging Reggie Wayne, rookie tight ends, and question marks at running back (and I really like Donald Brown too).
Right but Peyton Manning was not. That nullified any affect wayne could really have. Any receiver needs a QB and they didnt have anything at QB last year let alone a Peyton Manning or the guy many believe will be the next great QB in Luck.
My bone to pick is with the pervasive assumption out there that Joe Philbin made this trade. Essentially there's this ultra convenient thought out there that Philbin decided Vontae doesn't need to be on the roster and so he comes up to Jeff Ireland and says, find a trade partner. It just didn't happen like that. I don't think Joe was entirely happy with Vontae's approach but I don't think he was about to ask for him to be cut. They continually had Vontae running with the 1's as a nickel corner. Supposedly that was an important enough position to merit a $5.5mil/yr contract to Richard Marshall, so obviously if Vontae's set to nail that position down then he has value to the roster, especially since he's not making $5.5 mil/yr. Jeff Ireland was here when Vontae showed up to practice drunk, and I think that was a big factor in his decision to give a supiciously high and suspiciously longer term contract to a guy they TRIED to sound ambiguous on publicly as far as his role, but whose role has been anything but ambiguous on the practice field from the moment he signed. I also think he took Kevin Coyle's wishes into consideration on that. I think Ireland had been thinking this would be in Vontae's future for quite a while. He might not have known it would be this year, probably thought it would be next year, but I think he planned for it and when the opportunity arose he seized it.
I'm not gonna lie nor am I trying to be a dick, but I can't take any point you make on this topic seriously until you stop using his brother as a predictor of his behavior. What Vernon does or doesn't do has no bearing on what Vontae does or doesn't do. They are different people.
I think Dave was shooting off the hip. Even if this wasn't Joe's idea, Dave still gets to say his point is valid because in all likelihood Joe was complicit in it.
No mention of CJ's bragging about smoking weed with Gene Simmons, his future career in porn, and his desire to take the younger receivers with him to Tootsie's? It was just the swearing?
The 3-4 will extend their careers and make it easier for their veterans to make plays. We know this because we saw it happen with Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas. There'll be some adjustment period, sure, but I think they'll adapt to it quicker than most suspect. Many were saying the same things about Houston's conversion from the 4-3 to the 3-4, and their defense was excellent last year. I'd take the Colts secondary over ours right now. Net improvement. OL: it's no more or less inconsistent than it was when Peyton Manning was back there. I'd say it's more talented than last year's Colts OL. WR: Wayne is far from having a fork in his back, and Collie is excellent when healthy. TE: I'd take this entire unit over ours. I wanted both of their rookie TEs. Fleener in particular should benefit from his familiarity with Luck. RB: Fungible and therefore not really relevant to judging a team's quality. That said, Mewelde Moore continues to be inexplicably underrated.
I think Philbin and Ireland are working together. When Ireland looks at a guy who's been demoted by the coaching staff -- which obviously says the coaching staff isn't happy with him -- and gets an offer of a (probably high) 2nd-round pick for him, he's probably going to run with it, regardless of whether Philbin has asked or told Ireland to get rid of him. Now, I imagine Ireland consulted with Philbin before he pulled the trigger, and I doubt he had to twist Philbin's arm, given Vontae's behavior.
Where's his elite speed then? He has some elite qualities but not enough to put it all together, imo. I'd take a 2nd for most pretty good players who haven't (and won't, imo) progress any further. You don't know the last part. I highly doubt it was all Ireland as people just love to make it seem. He's shown that he'll gamble quite a bit with moves like Marshall so I don't see your logic there either.
I'm curious to see Hard Knocks again tomorrow. Hopefully it will settle some of our discussion. Interesting that each episode has had a major story. CJ cut, Tannehill named starter, VD traded. Great for their ratings.
I'm mixed on the trade. I don't think we would ever get a 2nd round offer for VD again, but I think he was a valuable player on this team and we have just created a bigger hole. Honestly, I would've like to have seen what Philbin & co could have done with VD this year. I believe they were on track in getting his *** in shape and lighting a fire, but we will never know now.
This made me think of my own kids and just because they are blood related they are nothing and I mean nothing alike in the way they act in life.
But some coaches do. The point is that I don't think Philbin is one that does. I see posts that minimize Davis' issues as just "some maturity issues". I don't think Philbin looks at it like that. I think it drives him crazy. I think he *****es about it to Ireland, his wife, his kids, the dog, etc. Or maybe he just fumes about it in his own head. But I have no doubt it bothers him a ton. I think he's one of those coaches that wants nothing to do with players that aren't self-motivated, lack self-discipline and/or lack attention to detail.
What are Mathis and Freeney like 33-34? That's like me telling you how awesome Garrard is if he could just stay healthy (which won't happen). lol We haven't given reasons why the Colts will be bad? Aside from Luck they have almost zero quality young talent.
I think this is accurate. But the part you're missing is that Davis had been demoted by the coaching staff in favor of a guy Ireland signed with it in mind that he might take Davis' spot all along. In other words I don't think Ireland was just reacting to some surprise development. I think he's known for quite a while this was going to be a possibility, if not an eventuality...and he planned for it.
I think the motivation for trading Vontae absolutely came from Philbin. However, assuming thats true for a second, I dont think that negotitating would be considered going directly against Joe Philbin's wishes either. I would assume it would go down something like this: Philbin tells Ireland that he doesnt want Vontae on the team b/c of his professionalism, and to move him. Ireland says ok, let me see if I can work something out. I dont think saying "no" during a negotiation would be considered "going directly against Philbin's wishes". At that point, he is doing Philbin's wishes... trying to move him. I dont think following Philbin's wishes would only count if he moved him for the first offer... Ireland has to be given the ability to negotate a good price in the process of fulfilling Philbin's wishes. For the record... I hate this trade. It is stupid to trade someone of Vontae's talent/ability just b/c you dont want to have the patience to develop him.
I would argue more with you but doing so on a phone is more work than its worth. I will say I have watched more on the 2011 Colts than most Miami fans... and that line is not good. The TEs should be good for the future but this year? They may struggle. I guess only time will decide regardless.
In front of the Hard Knocks cameras. But I notice that when Hard Knocks replayed the press conference, they suspiciously edited out the part where Chad said he smoked weed with Gene Simmons.
Let me guess, you had this same attitude in 2009 when we were playing Atlanta, when the reportedly necrotic John Abraham abused Jake Long. For the record, Mathis is 31, Freeney is 32. Freeney had 8.5 sacks last season, Mathis had 9.5. They're not walking around with forks in their backs. Zero quality young talent? Now I know you have no idea who's on their roster. The 2012 Colts OL is not the 2011 Colts OL, particularly the right side.
i don´t know if they will stink, but the reasons i see why they won´t win more than 5 games in no particular order : i think the Oline is their biggest ?, looking at the schedule i just don´t see them win more than 5 games Run D is also a problem, vontae will probably boost that a little bit Luck growing pains, don´t wanna compare it really but Manning threw 28 INT´s his rookie season and the colts will probably throw the ball a lot too the WR´s are also not world beaters, they will probably catch the ball better but besides Reggie Wayne who is 34 they have austin "concussion" collie, journeyman Donnie Avery and a rookie in TY Hilton who also got injured against the Redskins
So maybe there was a whole other conversation where Philbin also said "it's unprofessional to talk about weed". I doubt it, but it's hardly the point. The point is that Philbin clearly doesn't like unprofessional behavior and Davis is clearly unprofessional.
This is 2012, if that is truly the case (and I don't think it is) then he's coaching in the wrong era.
