http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2012/08/the-difference-between-colts-dolphins.html Obviously Armando was remiss in his re-telling. He clearly forgot the part where Joe Philbin walked into Jeff Ireland's office and demanded that Vontae Davis be traded off the roster. [/sarcasm]
He did a good job refusing until the price was right. That doesn't mean he did the right thing period, though. Jeff Ireland has always been good at negotiating favorable price tags on the trades he makes. But it calls into question which trades (we never hear about) that he had the opportunity to make, but didn't, because he's such a stickler on price.
So what was originally a 6th round pick became a 2nd and a conditional 6th. Not a bad piece of negotiating by Jeff Ireland. Would really like to know what the conditions of that extra pick are. I'd assume they're not easily reached. Eagerly await Hard Knocks tomorrow night. Pretty sure they'll have footage going back to the initial calls weeks ago.
It seems that Philbin is running the show, not Ireland... which hopefully is a good thing. Time will only tell. And allowing Vontae to play on Friday night was definitely part of the negotiation process. Risky... but it worked.
I think the reality is that Jeff Ireland showed foresight, the ability to plan longer term, and the ability to stay true to his valuations and win a trade negotiation. And yet still didn't necessarily get it right. Which is kind of how I feel about the entire Ireland regime.
Not entirely sure HBO would show back room stuff like GM calls and negotiations. I guess if they keep them vague, but still, that is kind of intrusive if you ask me.
Philbin demoting Davis made it pretty obvious to the whole world that he was unhappy with Davis. And it wasn't some short-term demotion solely for motivation purposes. This demotion was dragging on. The Colts were certainly able to put 2 + 2 together and get to 4. I'm sure Philbin communicated that displeasure with Ireland as well. In fact, I would assume that Ireland and Philbin talked about the potential trade beforehand. With a player like Davis with a history of not getting it (professionalism, maturity), it's not hard to imagine that Philbin concluded that Davis was unlikely to ever get it or at least that he wasn't willing to wait around for him to get it. My read on Philbin is that he has little tolerance for unprofessional players.
Not bad negotiating but still not a good trade. You gave up a 24 year old CB with an elite skillset and maybe a few maturity issues for a pick that will likely be between 43-50. You have a player worth making an emotional investment in and worth coaching up and worth mentoring because of that skillset and placed zero ability in your staff to do so. And the value of that pick goes down immensely if its Jeff Ireland still drafting in 2013. Ireland's high floor/low ceiling philosophy is great for avoiding complete busts but terrible in terms of drafting players that play at a very high level.
If Philbin wanted Vontae gone, and Ireland turned a 6th round pick into a 2nd round pick with a good potential being a high 2nd round pick, what exactly didn't he get right?
Vonte was good around game 10 last year and came to camp out of shape this year I hate to say it but Ireland probably did the best thing.
I don't think Richard Marshall is the right call as a starting corner to replace Vontae. I thought he should have been moved to safety full time after playing their about a third of the time in Arizona. As a pure corner, I think he's no better than Vontae.
If they had 12 Andrew Luck's then I would agree. Manning only had them winning 3 games his rookie year.
Why do you assume Joe Philbin wanted Vontae Davis GONE? If he did, then when Jeff Ireland turned down the 6th rounder and then turned down the 5th rounder, then that was directly going against Joe Philbin's wishes. Unless, Joe Philbin really didn't HAVE a dog in this race...
Is he worse than Vontae or about the same? (Its hard to tell by your statement. I'm not arguing or being a douche, I'm honestly asking.)
Philbin is going to Ireland and telling him he doesn't want Marshall and Davis on his team... guys that Ireland has invested heavily into. Ireland has listened and acted accordingly. By running the show, I meant Philbin has the upper hand over Ireland. Seems like "ties" go to Philbin. Not every GM is going to be so easily persuaded. Not every GM is on the hotseat that Ireland finds himself on.
I assumed you had information that I didn't have when you said. Also I do not believe Philbin's wishes would be to get ripped off in a trade. If Philbin did go into Ireland's office, I highly doubt he said, "I want Vontae gone and don't try to get the best deal for him. Just take the first one NOW!"
I think worse. I think Vontae has the potential to get better than he's been. I thought they were doing a pretty good job of making it clear to him that his coasting method was not going to cut it around here and I thought he was turning things around for the better and getting into better shape.
Well, you say he is no better than Vontae, but he isn't necessarily worse. Vontae may have the better upside, and has the younger age on his side so in that regard, I can see the reasoning, but in the end, we got a 2nd. I personally disagree with the trade, but I won't condemn Ireland for it, as he did get excellent value. Especially after what they were initially offering. I wonder if Irsay's idiotic tweets had anything to do with reinforcing Ireland that he had hidden leverage?
1. He has elite potential. If his skillset was already elite then he'd currently be an elite player, no? 2. How do you know they didn't already try to mentor and develop him? You have to cut the cord at some point so maybe they did it now while he still had some nice value to him.
He seemingly also left out the part about Ireland doing the deal without even talking to Philbin and Coyle about it and the part about them being so furious about it that they barged into Ireland's office with baseball bats and started whacking him in the head.
Yes. They play in a division with Tennessee (starting a first year QB and a fairly mediocre team), Jacksonville (Competing for Barkley in the kingdom of suck), and Houston. Theyre better then Jacksonville and thats not really close imo. Theyre as good as Tennesee imo. Thats 3 wins right there imo...2 vs Jax and 1-1 with Tennessee. That team had the most man games lost to injury last year. No reason they will go through that again and there is talent there even if guys like Wayne and Freeney are older. That definitely plays a big role. Manning didnt have Freeney, Wayne, Fleener, and a good young defensive minded coach. Manning went in to a complete poopstorm. Luck goes in to a different kind of poopstorm where injuries, not lack of talent played a big role in Indy getting the #1 pick this time through.
Ah, anyone else recall that VD was said to have maturity issues at IL? But we were assured "he's not like his brother" Uhm, yeah, the 08 and 09 draft classes are pretty much washouts..good job! Look at our secondary now: -late rd picks in Jones, Clemons and Wilson at S -2nd rder in SS, but how many career int's does he have? -Marshall, we'll see about him, thought he was kinda bad vs Atlanta -Carroll 5th rd pick Clearly Ireland has a philosophical issue about investing in the Secondary consistently, in fact, it is very much our Wr corps.
I would also like to point out that I do not agree with the trade at all. In today's NFL, having three pretty good corners is a really good thing. Even if Marshall is better than Vontae, Vontae is a lot better than Nolan Carroll. And Nolan Carroll is a lot better than whoever would come him after him.
You missed the sarcasm in what I said. I doubt Joe Philbin had much at all to do with this trade. I think after a significant offer came through from the Colts, Joe and Jeff probably had a little chat wherein Jeff gauged what Joe would feel about the trade and I'm sure Joe said something along the lines of "whatever you feel is best" (which would be exactly his style). But that's the extent of it. I think the reality is that last year when Vontae showed up to practice late, hung over, arguably still drunk...Jeff Ireland probably decided that longer term, this was not a guy that was going to be here much longer. I think that's why he signed Richard Marshall to a suspiciously large and suspiciously longer term (relative to all the other guys they signed this off season) contract. I think he was hoping that an offer like this would come down the pipe.
That's ridiculous a good GM won't let go of potentially bettering the deal that is what Ireland does do, Philbin would never say just get rid of him.
imagine if this is what comes out on Hard Knocks tomorrow, philbin somewhere in the building, ireland walks by and says "how is it goin Joe, oh btw i just traded vontae to the colts for a 2nd rounder"..
He didn't want him gone, he just made it clear that he was the 3rd best CB on the team. Surely Jeff Ireland values that opinion. What will be very interesting to see on Hard Knocks is how the staff feels about Nolan Carroll. Hopefully we get some insight there.
Freeney and Wayne were on the team last year when they were by far the worst team in the league. Lack of talent did play a huge role in Indy getting a #1 pick this time.
