IMO, James Brown was a pretty decent all around RT for us. I'd be happy if Jon Martin performed to that level anytime soon.
You telling me that you don't think Cam Wake, Reggie Bush, Karlos Dansby, Jake Long, Pouncey and V Davis wouldn't be starting for the Patriots? that's 6 easy ones right there on one team.
Are the Patriots more than one team? One playoff final 4 team may have a special weakness where one of our guys will be better, but would they start for 1 the other 3? That's why this requirement is there. Do you start Dansby over Mayo? Davis might not even be starting for us. Let's play this game after the 9th... But Long is a lock, and Wake should make it, but let's see if we can find two other guys!
Davone Bess happened during the Parcells era though. Can't have it both ways. If we're scratching Davone into the "win" column then we've got the right to scratch guys like Pat Turner, Pat White and Phil Merling into the "loss" column, no?
Parcells era, Parcells era, Parcells era. If you're opening up the Parcells era to evaluation, which I actually agree with, then you've got to open it all up.
Yes, absolutely you have to include those losses too. I agree. While I feel that Ireland has indeed made quality signings, he has made several poor decisions both in FA & the draft. Some of these decisions look even worse when one considers some of the players we passed upon in favor of another.
I've always opened up the Parcells era. Give him credit for Cam Wake and MVP runner-up Chad Pennington. Those two FA signings could be the best the organization has ever seen.
Cameron Wake might be. Chad Pennington, hardly. They signed an old QB with a history of bad problems in his throwing shoulder, and they got a good regular season out of him against a weak schedule, and then he completely imploded in the playoffs, and then the strand of hair that was holding his shoulder together snapped the following year. That does NOT qualify as potentially one of the best free agent signings in Dolphins history. Randy Starks was an exponentially better free agent signing than Chad Pennington, for example.
Which is absolutely fair, but I don't see how crediting Ireland with the Parcells-era picks substantially changes the conversation. The overall assessment doesn't dramatically change, and shouldn't reasonably be considered unacceptable anyway you want to slice it.
If you say so. The draft record stinks. The free agent record stunk for a while and only recently started to get better. The team's subsequent 31-34 record, not suprising.
The overall draft record for the Parcells/Ireland regime is terrible beyond questions. They've drafted exactly one superlative player, in Jake Long. The amount of 2nd and 3rd round washouts is incredibly disturbing as well. The reason that teams like Pitt, Philly, GB, etc., are literally overflowing with talent and will cut guys who could start for us is because they do a much better job than we do in that mid round area.
With respect , Ireland's production has been as good as this teams production. We'll see from this class but to date there isn't really a wonder why we are where we are is there?
Superlative is a very ambiguous criteria to use here. And if your point is that the Dolphins front office isn't among the top-5 in the league, then surely nobody will disagree.
Compared to what, exactly? By what standards? Certainly not actual NFL drafts on a year-to-year basis. The Dolphins have quite arguably traded player upside for a higher than average success rate and almost certainly should be taking bigger risks at this point, but the overall record does not "stink".
That one player of course was taken with the number one overall pick . You should get a superlative player picking number one overall n'est pas?
I don't think so. You can use anya djective you want, but in all this time (not counting this year) we have drafted exactly one guy who has risen to the top 10 at his position. I'm not even sure we've drafted any other top 20 guys. Pouncey, I guess. Other than that, not a whole lot there. Vontae and Smith are seemingly always in danager of being demoted. Hartline is ok. Odrick is ok.
Does our overall record the last number of years stink? or is it ok or acceptable or perhaps even good?
Great, now put "top-10 at his position" in historical context of NFL GMs. Again, if you want to complain that the front office hasn't been as good as PITs, GBs, NYGs, or BALs, have at it.
It is not. But the GM is not directly responsible for wins and losses. There's a very good argument that the Dolphins did not receive adequate coaching during that same time period, and that talent underachieved. Many people do not seem to be willing to even consider that aspect of it, which is fairly ridiculous when it's all said and done.
If the Parcells/Ireland regime has been good then the rest of the NFL must be simply atrocious. 2008: Jake Long Phil Merling Henne Kendall Langford Shawn Murphy Jalen Parmele Donald Thomas Lex Hilliard Lionel Dotson One guy left on the team, though I will grant that Langford is a good player, but not good enough that we were desparate to resign him. 2009: Vontae Davis Pat White Sean Smith Patrick Turner Hartline John Nalbone Chris Clemons Andrew Gardner JD "The Veterenarian" Folsom Vontae has been benched. Sm,ith is always on the evrge of being benched. HArtline is ok and Clemons plays because we don't have anybody else. Uninspiring at best 2010: Odrick Koa Misi Jerry AJ Edds Nolan Carrol Reshad Jones Chris McCoy Austin spitler Brandon MArshall (technically) Odrick and Misi are ok. Odrick has some promise but probably an ill fit for this new scheme. The rest of the list is a bust, though Jerry and Jones have some potential
Again, look at past results and put it in context. It's arguable that it is easier to succeed with a high pick, but it's certainly not easy. However you want to slice it(top 10/top 5/#1 overall) Jake Long is significantly above the cut in terms of contribution.
I mean, let's examine this round by round. 1st Round - OT Jake Long - All Pro 1st Round - OC Mike Pouncey - Starter 1st Round - DT Jared Odrick - Starter 1st Round - CB Vontae Davis - Half-Starter 2nd Round - CB Sean Smith - Starter 2nd Round - LB Koa Misi - Half-Starter (two-down) 2nd Round - RB Daniel Thomas - Backup 2nd Round - QB Chad Henne - Backup. Bust 2nd Round - DE Phil Merling - Backup. Bust 2nd Round - QB Pat White - Washout. Bust 3rd Round - DE Kendall Langford - Starter 3rd Round - OG John Jerry - Off the team in 3..2..1.. 3rd Round - WR Patrick Turner - Washout. Bust 4th Round - WR Brian Hartline - Starter 4th Round - WR Clyde Gates - Off the team in 3..2..1.. 4th Round - OG Shawn Murphy - Washout. Bust 4th Round - LB A.J. Edds - Washout. Bust 5th Round - SS Reshad Jones - Starter 5th Round - FS Chris Clemons - Liability Starter 5th Round - CB Nolan Carroll - Backup 5th Round - TE John Nalbone - Washout 6th Round - TE Charles Clay - Half-Starter 6th Round - RB Lex Hilliard - Washout 6th Round - OG Donald Thomas - Washout 6th Round - OT Andrew Gardner - Washout 6th Round - RB Jalen Parmele - Washout 7th Round - FS Jimmy Wilson - Backup 7th Round - LB Austin Spitler - Backup 7th Round - DT Lionel Dotson - Washout 7th Round - DT Frank Kearse - Washout 7th Round - LB J.D. Folsom - Washout 7th Round - LB Chris McCoy - Washout I'm just not sure why I'm supposed to be impressed by this.
But consider that we now have a new coaching staff and it's pretty evident we'll be a .500 or less team again this year, then what is the excuse? It's looking more and more likely that under two different coaching staffs Ireland will have put out a sub .500 team. And the same weaknesses in 2008 exist in 2012. WR, S, OL, pass rush other than Cam Wake. How is this not an indictment of the GM? How?
Yes, I think its pretty clear why our record has been what it was; failure to move on from Chad Henne. There was a clear difference between the team's performance with Henne as the starting QB and with anyone else as starting QB.
It would probably help if you went and looked. That was a pretty solid draft. You need to put it in context. Chad Henne for example did not successfully "solve" the quarterback position, but you need to ask yourself questions as to what the opportunity costs were(Who did we pass up for him), how did he perform relative to comparable players(drafted quarterbacks, 2nd round players, etc.)
Of course I am. I'm using last season's results also. What else would I use? If you were betting, what would you predict the Dolphins finish this season?
Yes, NFL standards. Over a period of 4 drafts he's come out with 1 Pro Bowler, and that guy was the #1 overall pick. He's drafted 8 starters, 3 half rotators, 5 backups and 16 washouts. The 8 starters sounds all well and good except Jared Odrick is just a run stuffing left end at this point which is a very common player, as is Kendall Langford, neither Sean Smith nor Brian Hartline are going to make very many teams' wish lists as starters, nor Reshad Jones for that matter, and putting the "starter" tag next to Chris Clemons' name felt so wrong I'm about to see a priest for confession.
A draft isn't "solid" if 4 years later you have only one of nine guys remaining on your team. Your way of looking at it is ridiculous, espescially considering you're one of the main guys who continually deflects criticism away from Ireland for Jerry over Jimmy Graham. That's a pretty big damn opportunity cost that we wasted. Is there any thing that could happen that would get you to question Ireland and whether he should continue to have a job? I'm seriously wondering
How many elite players? How many exceeded the draft slot? As Chris says , how many wins? On field wins mirror this , imo.
No, it's not. Particularly because if Vontae Davis and Daniel Thomas continue on the paths they're on, you'll be quickly adding their names to the 3 to make 5 busts. And especially when you consider that of 10 picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds, he's produced 1 Pro Bowler, and that guy was drafted #1 overall.
Just for comparison's sake, here are the Jets' drafts over the same period: 1 - Muhammad Wilkerson - DT 1 - Kyle Wilson - DB 1 - Mark Sanchez - QB 1 - Vernon Gholston - DE 1 - Dustin Keller - TE 2 - Vladimir Ducasse - T 3 - Kenrick Ellis - DL 3 - Shonn Greene - RB 4 - Bilal Powell - RB 4 - Joe McKnight - RB 4 - Dwight Lowery - DB 5 - Jeremy Kerley - WR 5 - John Conner - RB 5 - Erik Ainge - QB 6 - Matt Slauson - G 6 - Marcus Henry - WR 7 - Greg McElroy - QB 7 - Scotty McKnight - WR 7 - Nate Garner - T
