SO Glad We Did Not Get Jeff Fisher (Bounty Related)!

What would really be interesting is to see if there is any type of correlation between teams putting up bounties and an increase in illegal/dirty hits.

 

Are you advocating that a coach tell his players..."go out there and 'sweep the lick' on such and such a player" ?? Sorry, I can't see that as right, and surely the NFL does not...

EDIT: You're right about Ryan...lets just say that the reason we now have a rule regarding bounties is because of Ryan...

 

C'mon...they call roughing the passer if you incidentally touch a QBs head gear...that's significantly different...

 

I see a problem with your interpretation of things.

You are saying that its impossible for someone to purposely cripple someone while making a legal hit. That simply doesn't jive with logic.

 

No I am advocating a coach tell his players hit as a hot knife through butter.

 

Well I am mostly talking about the scenerio I was talking about.


Reciever rules did just change a lot with the defenseless receiver rules. Which, imo, are the worst called penalties I have ever seen.

 

Where is he saying that?

 

I'm saying you've failed to prove there is any difference in technique for a legal tackle and a "legal tackle meant to cripple to fulfill a bounty".

Again, just share some examples of legal hits where the player was intending to cripple, and then we can proceed to discussing how to actually prevent it.

 

There is no other conclusion to make about his stance.

 

You're saying there is no way to legally make a tackle and purposely break someone's knee?

The only way for me to prove it in anyway you couldn't refute, would be to tackle you legally and break your leg or knee or etc. Since that is obviously never going to happen, you're just gonna have to be intellectually honest here.

 

How did you get that from

 

Tackling me legally and breaking my leg/knee doesn't prove that you did so purposefully. It just proves that you can get injured making a legal tackle.

And really nobody tackles low. You would be hard pressed to see someone tackling low anymore. Its already illegal to tackle a QB below the knees.

 

The conclusion that I got from what he was saying is that, "There is little to no proof that a bounty increases the chance of injury on legal hits."

 

Hmmm. So if I say I'm going to break your leg while tackling you legally and then break your leg while tackling you legally, there was no way to prove I did broke your leg intentionally?

Good thing you're not a cop, lawyer or judge. God help us if you find yourself on a jury to an important case.

 

You got that because that's what you think. He didn't argue that at all.

He is trying to say either I'm concerned about player safety in legal hits or I'm against bounties. Read what he said.

If we can prove a bounty was paid after a player was injured, then that's all the proof we'd need. Requiring more proof than that means you believe nothing if you applied that level of proof to everything else.

 

You proved it yourself when you said you were doing it.

Really it would be much easier for you actually even establish guys getting injured on low hits before we can even debate whether its done intentionally. You would be hard pressed to find guys going low on purpose.

 

That is really terrible science.

You would have ot prove that the rate of injury per hit increases when there are bounties than when they are not.

 

So in your eyes, correlation always equals causation when it comes to tackling technique in the NFL. Sure.

 

All I'm saying is that in practice, a player doesn't change his technique based upon a bounty.

 

The conclusion that I draw from it all is that intent is difficult as all get out to prove even on "illegal hits"......was it Bernard Pollard's intent to blow out Tom Brady's knee, or was hit intent to sack the QB?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfEQicw7o4

Was it Aeneas Williams' intent to end Steve Young's career, or was he just executing the play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFT_9Klo6xE

Did Ken Norton Jr mean to break Napolean McCallum's leg or was he just tackling him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT4kAKB2CT8

Did Corey Wooton mean to knock Brett Favre out, or was he just finishing a play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpJtMSMOW5I

 

Here is my take.

There is a difference between hitting to hurt and hitting to injure. Yes you want to make the opponent hurt, smash him so hard he doesn't want to play. However going in with the intention of hitting a player so that he is UNABLE to play is a completely different story. It is the equivalent of a boxer punching his opponent straight in the nuts. If you have to resort to taking out your opponents players to win games, your team is pathetic and doesn't deserve to win.

 

Here's a big one....

You're effectively circumventing the salary cap.

So not only did Gregg Williams have a bounty system in place in his last four NFL stops -- which, in this new era of player safety and lawsuits against the NFL, the league will steamroll he and some of those teams over -- those teams circumvented the salary cap. The last time I recall that happening was the 49ers. And the league fined the team and the executives (who'd since moved on) and stripped them of a couple of draft picks.

I'm really curious to see what Goodell does here. Because he could really hammer a lot of people and organizations if he chooses to. Lots of people are exposed.

 

Sounds like a TON of players/teams have done this...not necessarily like injure players, but players saying "I got $500 for a stop inside the 20 on the kickoff"....or something similar. Is it bad if players are running it?


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Like Matt Millen said , don't be surprised if this is Paul Hornug and Alex Karras revisited , and it should be for coaching and management imo.

 

I think Greg Williams should be banned from the NFL.

While I do not think it hurts the integrity of the game, I do think coaches should be held to a high standard about cheating.

 

As for the Fisher-Dolphins angle, that was the first thing I thought of when I heard the news.

Not only did we end up better in the offensive coordinator department (Brian Schottenheimer vs Mike Sherman), now we'll also end up better on the defensive side. Kevin Coyle may be a rookie DC, but he'll be here for 16 games.

Oh, and the whole shame/PR factor. That's kinda big too.

I agree with the previous posters who tied Fisher and Williams. While Fisher is highly respected and tenured guy, a member of the powerful competition committee (formerly chaired by one Donald Francis Shula), his teams are also very physical and nasty. They live on that line and cross it.

And being that they are such good friends and Fisher is such a detail-oriented and dominant coach, I have a hard time believing he didn't know that it was going on under his watch.

 

When I see the shape of some former players who can't walk ... committing suicide so their brain can be examined ... etc, I think having anything that encourages the game to be more violent then it already is ... is just morally wrong. But, this is the NFL ... where the morally right thing to do is often secondary

 

I have no doubt it's all over the league. I've heard about stuff like it, though more on a good play/bad play reward type system among positional groups where players do it among themselves.

It's a fine line from the league's standpoint. Even in the scenario I just described, what's to say the stakes don't rise and a free agent picks Team X because he knows he can win a pot of $35K in cash each week. Even if it's just among players, that'd be circumvention of the salary cap.

 

Indeed. That's the part that really interests me.

The league holds teams and coaches to a higher standard. In that light, even though it'd be shocking, you almost have to expect that kind of hammer to come down.

 

Then do you bring the hammer down on everyone or just coaches who administered/knew of bounty programs?

 

The discipline may be shocking in regards to what it actually is , but I can see year long suspensions . Roger Goodell doesn't like being lied to ( no one does ) and I believe he will be very stern with his actions.

The other thing is Tom Moore was told this was resolved /stopped , I believe he also has to take action for his employees.

 

I heard on one of the big national radios today that the NFL informed the Saints awhile back that they were onto them.....and Williams still didn't stop.

Benson might not do anything though. It's likely both the Saints and Payton will be fined heavily by the league. I don't think he'll want to fine him any more or do any further harm to his franchise (e.g. fire/suspend Payton).

 

Not sure ,if you as an owner go to your head coach and GM and address the issue and they tell you , directly , that it has been dealt with and has stopped and it wasn`t and it becomes an international mess and embarrassment? And the commissioner has made player safety such a focal point , I think he has to do something significant.

It won`t happen , as NO is now a successful franchise after years of floundering but I could see if this was a different team , both being fired to be honest .

 

To take a page from your book....what is your evidence? If what you're saying is true, than there is no such things as bounties in football, is that what you're saying?

 

what is the train of thought that gets you there?

 

He's saying players don't actively try to hurt another player by claiming they don't do anything different in their approach. if that is true, why would there be an offer to give someone money for intentionally hurting someone else?

There's simply no point in making a bounty for something no one is trying to do.

 

The question I still have is what actions are being changed by these bounties? Were there any malicious hits or penalties in the Vikings game where Favre was supposedly targeted?

 

Why does it matter?

I'm not allowed to try and hire someone to hurt someone else, even if that person doesn't get hurt.

 

That is exactly what I'm saying. The bounties had no tangible effect on the technique the players used. Its really no different than any side show thats done for camaraderie or entertainment. Any effect would be purely from a motivational/engagement standpoint.

 

Where is it stated that hurting your opponent is against the rules?