POLL about Henne's performance IF he completed 12 yards on the final drive

I think that's a pretty good point. However, the red-zone scoring and the inability to score on the final drive lingers.

Crazy thing is this, those stat lines are so different but the results are the same. Chad had an opportunity to lead the team to a GW score both times and failed. That goes to my point that you need a QB to win a game here and there for you.

 

I disagree with this, Todd. McCoy did rally his team. He made the biggest plays of the day on his last drive. The Dolphins should have put more points up. It'd have been nice for the defense to hold up. But, over the course of your season you need your QB to pick your team up. That's what keeps your streaks going or starts winning streaks. Penning ton did it in 2008.

Henne played worse in 2010 and they had a chance to win...and didn't. Roethlisberger played terrible and he lead them to a win. Josh Freeman is terrible every game until the 4th quarter it seems like. Some QB's have a knack for taking it over and winning games.

 

Just wondering, didn't I see two drops on that last drive? One on a play with HUGE pressure on a blitz.

 

The Bills are 3-0, considered a good team, and they've put it on the shoulders of Ryan Fitzpatrick the last two games. He's had to lead two last second winning drives.

Matt Ryan has been asked to win a GW drive.

Ben Roethlisberger did it last week.

Phil Rivers did it in week 1 vs the Vikings

Josh Freeman did it in week 2 vs the Vikings.

I think it's the exact opposite really. The good teams QBs win this games, making the difference between poor and good teams.

 

Good job showing his improvements. There is no doubt he has made some clear, tangible improvements. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, and some are still a work in progress compared to others, but it's clear he's better and improved.

 

Are you sure you're not playing the result here?

Fitzpatrick's latest comeback was made possible by the 4 INTs thrown by Tom Brady, no?

Matt Ryan's lone comeback was made possible by an injury to Mike Vick, no? He was a total failure in his other two tries vs Chicago and Tampa was he not?

Why was Rivers ever trailing at home to Minnesota in the first place? And his comeback attempt vs NE was foiled, does that mean Fitzpatrick is more "clutch" than he is?

I'll credit Freeman for his comeback vs Minnesota, and Stafford for doing the same a week later.

But overall I don't think that you can draw a line between good QBs coming back and bad QBs failing to do so.

Romo blew a lead in NY then saved the day vs Washington. Drew Brees failed in his comeback bid on opening night and then came to the rescue last week vs Houston. Roethlisberger's final drive @ Indy was preceded by a defensive TD, and 3 Big Ben TO's that allowed the game to remain close to begin with. It's a mixed bag in my opinion. Over the course of a season, or a few seasons you can measure these types of things but I'm not sure you can point to a few games and draw any type of conclusion.

 

Some serious spin going on in your brain.

Throw it all away and the facts are :

Colt McCoy and the Browns had a shot to win the game, and McCoy threw a winning TD pass.
Henne and the Dolphins had the same opportunity, and couldn't grab a single yard, 3 INC and 1 INT, and lost the game.


Spin it whatever way you want, there it is.

 

True.

You could also say that Cleveland's defense made key stops late in the game and that Miami's D had a chance to win the game with a stop but failed repeatedly to do so. The spin can go either way .

 

Both can be true

 

Both are true.

 

McCoy's winning TD pass was pretty much flawless. Can't blame the defense on that one. Looked like excellent coverage to me. Great pass and great catch.

 

I asked this earlier and no one could answer it. On the last drive, the 3 incompletions and 1 int, did anyone see any open targets that Henne just flat out did not see? From what I could tell on all 4 plays the Browns blanketed every receiver very well. On the last play, Marshall got blatantly held as Haden was running behind him holding a handful of jersey and the officials all missed or ignored it. How is it Henne's fault if no receivers were getting open? How is it his fault Miami didn't get a defensive holding call on the 4th down play?

 

1st Down - Reggie Bush and Marshall

2nd Down - mush

3rd Down - You have Bush again with a step on Jackson

4th Down - Marshall

But beyond that, there are plenty of things the QB can do to get the ball moving.

 

From what I saw the 1st down throw could have been completed if the throw was a little further to the outside.

On 2nd down Gates allowed himself to be pushed out of bounds.

On 3rd there was immediate pressure off the right side and a stunting LB in Henne's face as he tried to step into the throw. Bess appeared to be open but the throw was two feet behind him. Reggie Bush appeared to have beaten his man on a stutter route but there wasn't enough time for the QB to look in his direction.

On 4th Marshall seemed to be semi-open and a better throw might have gotten the job done.

It was a combination of good defense plus bad protection, route running and inaccurate passes.

 

I guess I better watch the replay to see if I concur.

You did see the very obvious uncalled def holding by Haden right?

 

After Gates is more experienced he'll probably be able to draw a PI call on a play like that. Rather than let the defender more or less influence him out of bounds. Still that was kind of a low pct pass anyway, and I'd have preferred Henne could have found a receiver on a more high pct pattern. Was Gates the most open or like you say, Henne didn't have a lot of time to survey the entire field.

 

I'm not playing the result at all. I can, A's you have, bring up instances where QB's have failed there. Not just QB's, but other players--like our defense.

I'm not trying to prove Fitzpatrick is more clutch than Henne. I mean Chad Henne converted on many big plays throughout the game that should be noted. I haven't used the word clutch until now while I debate your reply. All I'm doing and have stated is that QB's have to win you games at some point throughout the season. It really is the elixir for success. I mean look at our last five years. The only successful year (measured by winning %) was in 2008, when Chad Pennington was the ultimate closer. The Denver game was a great example, defense & offense come out of the shoots then we give it all back until Pennington comes down for a TD converting a big 3rd and 14 or something or another. You just need your QB to do that for you sometimes.

All the QB's named above are on team's that have winning records in 2011, other than Matt Ryan. I'm not saying they will make the playoffs or go on to winning records even, but look at team's with winning records and the correlation to strong QB play or a QB coming to a win a game in their last drive/4th quarter is strong. That's why QB's always have the record attached A's a measure of success--fair or unfair it's used by media and employers (GM's, coaches, owners).

I'm not saying that only QB's should be held accountable to finish games either. Other players are/should be held just as accountable. Tony has already said that the closets they expected to close haven't showed up. No doubt in my mind that was directed at JT (who Sparano labeled A's such after his signing), Cam Wake, Bell, and maybe Vontae. On offense, Marshall, Bush, and Chad Henne (a newly honored captain, given the responsibility of running the offense, etc.).

For me the NFL is so loaded with talented players that parity gives very team the opportunity to succeed. Even at our lowest 1-15, Miami had opportunities to be 7-9, 8-8, but never capitalizing. So, when you say all these plays that weren't made or were made that gave the team the opportunity at the closing minutes should be taken into account, I don't think holds water. For me, that's a normal NFL game. The difference between winners and losers is what is done that last quarter those last 5 minutes. Should Cleveland have been in the game? Probably not. Should San Diego have evr been in that situation vs. Minnesota? Maybe not. Did Brady's INT's allow Fitzpatrick to make plays and the Bills to hang around? Absolutely. However at the end of the day, it came down to those QB's making plays at the end of the game and they did. They didn't settle for those built in excuses.

 

You're right, it was definitely a low percentage throw and Gates needs to do a better job of staying on the field or selling that he is being pushed out of bounds. But the refs had just called 30 yds in penalties to get us in great field position so I don't think we were going to be getting any calls .

No one was "open" but Gates was the least covered.

I'm checking it out on my phone and it was 4 verticals vs. press man with a robber in the the middle and a safety over the top. Hartline takes an inside release while Marshall releases outside from the slot and they are running right next to each other. If Marshall runs an out he'd have the whole sideline to himself. Ditto for Bess on the other side.

It was a curious play call considering all that was needed was a FG.

 

Solid points Captain. I almost forgot I was supposed to be disagreeing with you .

I understand that a good QB needs to be able to close games but it'd be nice if we didn't let scrub teams like Cleveland hang around a steal games the way they did on Sunday. Even if Henne had led the team down for the win I'd still have been disappointed in the effort. We should have mopped the floor with those Clowns and on the stat sheet we did but on the scoreboard we didn't.

I was listening to Pennington yesterday and he had it exactly right. This team finds a new way to lose every week. The defense never showed up for the Pats game. The offense couldn't get out of their own way vs Houston and when they finally did defense fell flat and the kicker mutinied. Last week we had every opportunity to put the Clowns away. Then we slipped up and gave them one chance and they ran out of the stadium laughing with it.

I wonder what it'll be this week? Special Teams is overdue for a meltdown.

.

 

The Special Teams haven't been holding up their end of the bargain other than punt return coverage, and that can be attributed to Brandon Fields.

I agree about the feeling of winning had Henne drove us back. I even posted in the game thread, would anyone even be happy with 16-13, 17-14, 17-16 win? After thinking about and not being so emotionally charged, I'd say yea. Because it'd have been a real positive uplift to this team and Henne that we had a guy capable of bringing the team back to win.

And truth is, it's all perception. The Jets' first game of the year they with a last second FG, but all Sanchez does is hand the ball off and the Jets get 2 yards, settle for a 50+ yd FG and he nails it for the win. Now Sanchez did nothing special other than throwing the ball away before taking a sack on 3rd down, but he gets the W. But, it's that perception from the team, that confidence from the team that he's done it before in big situations so he will do it again. Thus, his teammates have his back because he always shows up ther--same with Freeman (who again is so horrible and completely different in quarters 1-3 it's amazing). We don't have that in Miami yet and Sunday was a perfect opportunity. Did he lose the game? Heck no. Could have won the game? Yup.

 

That Jets/Dallas game was a helluva game but I hated the ending.

I hope one day our defense can force two crucial turnovers and block a punt for a TD in the 4th quarter of a game to give us a win so that our QB (who isn't very good) doesn't have the game on his shoulders all the time.

Against Jax Sanchez had so-so game. It didn't matter though b/c the defense was dominant. They went out and won the game, they didn't let the Jags hang around and hang around. All Sanchez had to do was not screw things up. Then last week the defense had a bad game and they needed Sanchez to bail them out and like Henne he failed. They've played 3 games and the D and ST have won two of them.

We've played 3 games and Henne has been our last dying hope each time. He's failed all three times and he deserves his fair share of criticism but if we were a "good team" we wouldn't be asking him to bail us out every week. If we were a good team we'd be holding teams like Cleveland/Jax to 3 points, turning them over, blocking punts, forcing safeties etc.

If we were a good team we'd be ending games with our QB handing off or taking a knee, not in the shotgun trying to stave off another loss.

 

You play the game to WIN, we lost. And when is Henne going to show us he can toss a TD pass from inside the red zone? Very happy with his play otherwise, but "otherwise" doesn't win games.

 

This is a straight Homer thread. IF this and if that....

 

I don't think anyone claimed Sanchez won the Dallas game or if anyone even perceives that to be the case. But I do think his team believes in him...but not because of that Dallas game, but because of the regular season comebacks last year as well as his play in the playoffs. He's shown his teammates a lot more than Henne has showed his. That's a fact. I am not arguing about who is better.

 

The Jets defense and special teams put them down 14 points in the span of 2 minutes. After the second score, the Jets offense manage 19 yards and had to punt. After a 3 and out by Oakland, the Jets got the ball back at their own 7. 10 plays and 3:06 later, they scored a TD (93 yards, 72 of them passing). Oakland got the ball back with 5:33 left. They take 2:56 off the clock and stretch the lead back to 10. Sanchez then got them to 4th and goal from the 2 with 52 seconds left and no time outs. Ryan decides to go for it and after appearing that Sanchez rushed in for the TD, the play was reversed and Oak gets the ball at the 1 with 49 seconds left. Jets are denied a chance at an onsides kick that is no sure bet.

So that equals Sanchez failing like Henne getting the ball down 1 in Cleveland territory, timeout in pocket, and 4 downs to get 15 yards or so and not moving the ball an inch? Uhhhhh ok.

 

Give me a ****ing break Sanchez played like **** and that's why you lost, Dallas D had Sanchez under control

 

What in the world are you talking about?! Jets beat Dallas. I'm talking about the Raiders.

 

QB's job to orchestrate the offense. Make the reads and the correct throws to win games.

Henne is playing "don't blame me!" football. His passes have no guts or confidence to them. Therefore, he won't win you a game, but the absence of complete "bad play" will fool some fans into thinking he's "average".

I've seen too many QB's in my life to know that a legit QB would have made some daring, "need balls to throw that one" type of passes that nails the receiver in the correct coverage for 1st downs. Henne is just not even trying those, obviously, because maybe if he does his INT's will go up. I don't think he has it in him. He doesn't have the brain or confidence to be a great QB in this league.

This is why Henne is the worst red zone QB. He can't make the quick decisions and ballsy passes to score points when the field gets shorter.

oh yeah, also, that pass to Marshall should have been a completion. Instead, inaccurate terrible pass.

 

Not true. I would never ever accept my Dolphins going 0-16. 1-15 is fine though, cause we did it already. Draft Luck, have our pick of available Head Coaches, next 10+ years of playoffs and Super Bowl contention.

and if anyone here is biased, it's ToddPhins and HenneNator. I don't care about Chad Henne. I care about the Miami Dolphins.

You seem to care about Henne the player quite a bit, that you throw everyone else under the bus. It's the defenses fault, Brandon Marshall's fault, Dan Henning's fault, the coaches, the referees, the pigeon that flew over the stadium that changed the air particles that affected Chad Henne's ball while in mid-air.

 

Look at this very thread.

"Rate Henne's performance IF he won the game for us!"

Sure is biased in here.

"Let's rate LeBron James' performance IF he scored 10 straight points to win the game in Game 2 of the Finals! See? He's good!"

 

You ignore all the late heroics by Sanchez the past few years.

 

That's exactly what I was saying. His team has so much confidence in him in those situations because he's done it before and in big games. The Jets have much more confidence in Sanchez than the Dolphins in Henne I agree.

 

You do? Play to win? Really? I thought the Mighty Suck For Luck Bunch has been wanting the team to just tank the rest of their season, so we could get golden boy Luck, who can win the next ten Super Bowls for us all by himself.

Henne has thrown red zone TD passes this season.

 

Not by himself. Luck will need Brandon Marshall on the field too. Luck can't throw the ball AND catch it.... he can't do it all, baby!

So just suit up those 2 players by themselves........ should be enough, Mr. Clean!

 

Oh my god a Homer thread? You mean like a thread about the Iliad? The Greeks won and the Trojans lost. That is why I wonder why we have a condom named after the losers. Why isn't there a brand of condom called the Greeks?