Is it possible that a Center can be the 15th best player in a draft? Is it possible a Center can be better than the 15th best player in the draft? If so, then why does it matter? Concepts of draft-day value are utterly irreverent if you hit on the pick. Olin Kreutz has not been a very good player for several years now. I wouldn't say the Saints have no problems, their run game performance has been pretty mediocre for having two of the best guards in the game and having spent most of their resources revamping runningback.
Well, can never say "impossible" for any position to be a Top 15 talent, however for this team's needs, was that honestly the best match of acquisition cost and performance? For these team's level of talent and needs? I say..doubtful, Pouncey can be a all pro Center, but...who knows? And even if he is, so what? Job #1 is to protect Drew Brees, and Matt Birk did fine in Baltimore, such Centers are not exactly rare nor hard to find which is one of my dislikes with Pouncey pick. Joe Berger was mediocre, so use the #15 overall to replace him? Good to have you back around BTW Disgustipate.
Off hand, how about Kerrigan with Misi moving inside? Castanzo or Carimi to play RT so Carey can move to RG?
Ideally, we'd have drafted a hyper-successful player at a position of need. But that player might not be there, and pretending and hoping they are is not helpful. Lamentations about opportunity cost actually need some sort of proof that something was missed. Concepts of pre-draft value espoused by mock draft talking heads rarely ever correlate meaningfully to the reality of what are the best players in a draft. It's early and subject to change, but right now, Mike Pouncey is way better than the 15th best pick in the draft. It is not particularly implausible that this ends up being the reality in the long-view. Matt Birk is a lot better than just some guy who was good enough lying around on the street, and offensive line play is more than pass protection. They used a #15 pick on a replacement for Joe Berger because they thought it was a good pick. Thanks, it's good to be back, let's see how long it lasts lol.
This fanbase would have rioted - RIOTED - if we traded up into the Top 10 to draft Ponder. Going into the draft Ponder was considered a borderline first round pick, but more likely destined for the second. Also, it's been rumored that the front office was interested in not only Ponder but Jake Locker, and were pretty much shocked when they both went off the board when they did.
Dalton? Doesn't he have a +100 rating atm?And we better hope Gabbert isn't good, cause the Jags pulled the trigger we were unwilling to. Fortunately, Pouncey has looked pretty solid so far. As for Thomas, I was all about Helu instead, who ran for 74 yards on 10 carries, and caught 3 for 38. Still, fumble aside, Thomas had a very promising first game. Hopefully he holds onto the ball - if so, he might be a Matt Forte type guy. Ireland overall? Average, decent, ok. We could do much worse than him, we could probably do better. He has strengths (good scout, good evaluation, aggressive) and weaknesses (poor OL, ignorance of certain positions like TE and FS, poor FA record). I wouldn't be opposed to bringing him back without Tony, but I wouldn't let him stand in the way of someone else like Cowher either if that is what it came down to.
From a talent perspective I could see Kerrigan. However, I don't see how Ireland could have gone D with the 1st pick in the draft given the state of the team. 2 games in that perception has changed. Could see having gone T and kicking Carey inside as a viable option.
By going Pouncey, they effectively locked in Colombo at RT and Carey at RG, which has been rather underwhelming to be kind.
This is one of the more mystifying things about this yr, Sparano gave Colombo a full Camp, preseason, and 2 regular season games, and he looked exactly like he did in Dallas last yr, and yet, there he is playing.
We didn't even have Colombo when we drafted Pouncey and I really doubt we drafted him with the thought in mind that they would just sign Colombo later and the line would be set.
YEAR 4 AND THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE 4 years of drafts and 4 years of free agency and this is all Ireland and Sparano can show for it. How many more years does this dynamic duo need for Gods sake to make this team mediocre,never mind the playoffs?
According to PFF, Colombo's run blocking grade against Houston was better than all but one of his run blocking grades last season. He is now 59th out of 71 tackles in overall grades. While that isn't good, it is better than last year and currently he is trending upward. Miami including Colombo, did far far better slowing down Mario Williams than Indy did. Mario was a +7.8 after the Indy game and had 2 sacks, 1 hit and 8 pressures. His overall grade against us was +1.0 with no sacks, 1 hit and 1 pressure. Carey btw, is currently higher in overall grade, -2.5, than Incognito, -3.5, because he is +1.7 after two games in run blocking. Carey however is currently the worst pass blocking guard in the league.
And you need a willing trade partner. Can't just assume we had one in the case of moving up for Ponder.
That is a terrible Indy Team Mr C, not much of a yardstick really. And Colombo's problems were of the pass blocking variety, to many outright whiffs and instant pressures. A bit of a surprise about Richie I, not so much about Vern C, Henne is flat out getting pressured to quickly and to often, could be they are keeping the demands on Pouncey low and that puts extra pressure on the two G's, but still, they simply must do better or "be replaced".
I see it that way Mr C, which is why carey was moved to RG as soon as Camp opened, that was the strategy.
What difference does it make if the C was drafted at 14, 15, 17, 18, or 21? As long as he is a good player it doesn't matter a whole lot now does it? Clearly taking good players in the mid first is the commonly accepted practice Ireland was trying to follow. So you either forgot about Everitt or chose to ignore him because it makes your point look more emphatic if you can say Pouncey is the highest drafted C since the 70s. As for the "shut me up", well only you can do that.
There was a willing trade partner - the Jaguars jumped up several spots from 16 (below us) to 10. And it was with the Redskins, not a team that would have had a reason to trade with the Jags but not us like say a divisional or even conference rival would have. If we wanted to trade up, the opportunity was there. We either thought Gabbert or Ponder would make it to 15 or didn't value them highly enough to make a jump. Time will tell if that was the right move or not.
Maybe the plan was to move Carey and make Murtha the starting RT, until it turned out Jake would open camp on PUP.
The Jags gave up their 2011 2nd to go with their 1st to move from 16 to 10. What would you suggest we have traded that would have been a better offer?
I am not suggesting anything expect that if we wanted to make a trade, it was there. It might not have been cheap, but it was there.
I don't think you get the concept of "doubling up". But to get to the real issue: It is way too early to evaluate Pouncey and Thomas, especially due to the fact that a number of guys Ireland has drafted seem to do ok in their first year, and then fall off the cliff. Donald Thomas leaps to mind.
Sure, if he were the right fit for us, but imo, he was not. To me, and I stick by this, Draft Picks, especially high ones, are way over valued. That does not mean you can just spread them out all over the league yr after yr (Wanny style) but a strategic trade of a one or two every couple of yrs is not the end of the world or the death of talent on the roster.
I think any team that holds Mario to 1 hit and 1 pressure, no sacks, like we did, is going to be pretty satisfied. Granted, he had help, because that is the smart thing to do, give the extra blocking attention to the star and force the other defenders to beat you, but Colombo contributed to keeping Mario in check and gave up no sacks, 2 hits and 1 pressure.
Also meant Fasano was not out in patterns, which reduced offensive effectiveness. IDK, another legit criticism of Sparano is he really sucks as a Offensive Line evaluator...there... I said it. Maybe the line gels, and becomes proficient, then again we could be 2-5 when that happens.
Both us and the Jags couldn't trade with the Skins. It was there only if we could have outbid the Jags and they had more picks to trade, so how could we have outbid them? I was asking myself that question previously anyway, so it isn't meant to come across as being a smart ***. I was thinking to outbid the Jags we'd have needed to given our 3rd in 2011 and also a high pick, a 2nd or 3rd, in 2012. Say, we would have offered the 3rd in 2011 and 2nd in 2012, the Jags could have just given a 3rd in 2011 to go with their 2nd in 2011 and still outbid us. IMO a trade is there if you have a willing partner and the necessary picks to throw into the deal without doing something unreasonable. So, while a trade may have been there, a reasonably priced trade probably wasn't from our perspective. Also, I think we are making assumptions on how highly Ireland valued Gabbert and Ponder. Some folks assume Ireland would have taken either one at 15 but didn't think their value was worth giving up most of the rest of the draft for by trying to trade up. Maybe he was surprised and caught off guard when Ponder went to the Vikes, but I doubt he was. All of Tennessee, Washington and Minnesota were believed to be interested in a QB in the 1st. Only one who didn't follow through on that was Washington, though their original pick was used for one. It's as likely as anything else IMO that Ireland expected all 4 of those QBs to be taken before the 15th pick, but didn't think Locker, Gabbert or Ponder were any better prospects than Henne.
True enough about Fasano, but not many RTs, even those a lot better than Colombo, would be able to handle Mario alone very much. I think if we had the 2008/09 version of Carey at RT, you're still gonna want to give him help on blocking Mario much of the time.
I'm not assuming that. I'm just mostly assuming they didn't care that much about getting a QB they liked. I don't know how any GM that values the QB position as little as Jeff ireland does can succeed in today's NFL.
Do you they could have logically thought that none of Locker, Gabbert or Ponder would be an upgrade over Henne?
I don't know, getting some talent is nice and he has done that but I still don't see this team having an identity or really even being a winner so you can't claim any real success if you are in the front office. Its about winning and establishing the franchise, we haven't done either. Our offensive line is still a work in progress and supposedly that was what our identity was going to be, a dominant offensive line and running game, so far it hasn't happened. When you set out to be a run first, win in the trenches team and you don't achieve that you weren't largely successful as a front office.
The center is the key to the running game. You would think that someone who was arguing that we needed a 300 carry back would be all over that. IMO center is both a more important position and more difficult to find than a RT. And nowadays with the monster NTs/DTs that are out there, centers that can handle both run and pass pro and can get to the second level and make the line calls are even harder to find. Pass rusher is a valuable position, but I don't think they have ever wanted to move Misi inside.
They are not and have not been a run first team. They pretty clearly set out to run an 3-WR based offense this offseason, too.
we have our different ways of evaluating players..I don't use examples of past mistakes to influence with what Ive seen with my own eyes..I'am happy for our team that we got both players in the manner for which we did...regardless if he will not be here next year..
Wasn't it reported that Ireland wanted Ryan, not Long with the number one overall pick? Then when Parcells denied and said we're taking Long, Ireland tried to trade back into the first for Flacco?
Sparano has stated over and over and over again that being a dominant running win in the trenches team. It's why people make such a big deal about their decisions in personnel. Their talk has not matched their actions. Personally, I think the bad FA OL decisions they've made have forced a change on what they'd ultimately like to do on offense not because they wanted to be a pass happy offense.
