What is worse is, we invariably could have taken a more productive player within the ten picks after the bum we drafted. This franchise just never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, have more faith in Ireland then most, but sheesh.
I never wanted Marshall in the first place. Im not upset we got him because we needed a WR. And there is no way to say that we would have drafted those players so your comparison is off base Pads.
I'm still not convinced Orton is a significant upgrade over Henne. He might make him battle in camp, but at tehe end of the season, not sure having Orton on the field would be a good thing. I'd rather Henne out there for the year, and if he stinks it up, we draft a QB in the first round. Forget taking other team's castoffs.
What I'm saying here is that Orton would be by far the best 3rd round pick we've had in a dozen years other than Langford.
Alright, I can't do this anymore. You're clearly failing to see the big picture here, and I think you're consciously choosing to do so, so you win. You're right. Drafting a QB and making a commitment to him is clearly not the way to win in the NFL. Throwing 2nd round draft pick after 2nd round draft pick away on mediocre QBs is the road to a championship. I mean, hell, Miami has been doing it for a decade and look at how many Super Bowls they have won.
Well, point being, in the NFL picks for players trades usually work out really well for the team that acquires and not so well for the team that moves the player, the risk nature of the draft is just massive and the production of the acquired player usually dwarfs that of the lost pick. What has happened is the Hershel Walker trade has coloured that fact as it was so lopsided. For example the Seahawks gave up a #1 for Hasselback in 2000, it became a high pick in the 01 draft and GB took..the immortal Jamal Reynolds... Feely trade that will live in infamy? became..Reggie Brown Usually works out like that B14, this is one of the reasons why I'm bold about trading picks for proven Vets who make sense, the Draft is a Casino.
More or less, Langford is a Beast though, rock solid at a non glamourous position, but that is how things work out mostly. Heck, one can look back on the Ricky Williams trade, both of them, and sort of chuckle as the players they landed, Grant for NOLA and C Pace for the Cardinals and Lavarr Arrington for the redskins (who traded with NOLA) have not had the careers Williams has had for us. And it works out like that really really often.
Ok name a qb trade for Miami that has worked? Culpepper? Feeley? Harrington? Rosenfels? Thigpen? And just because a trade is a wash (player sucks, pick sucks), doesn't make it a good thing. If anything the percentage of trade ups for qb being successful is just as high if not higher.
Not what I advocate, if you looked at the list of the names you mentioned one thing stands out..those teams had a Vet to play and the young Qb sat, what the 29 yr old Orton will do is improve the Qb position AND allow us to take a Qb WE want, we can make that move anytime over the life of Orton's contract we will not have the proverbial gun to our head to pick a qb with a #1 pick then toss him into the fire. Worked for: Eli Manning/Rivers/Rodgers And we would not have to suck to do so, once you have stability at the Qb position, you are far more able to manuever.
I've been banging the Orton drum since the season ended. I know some don't think he's anything special but I think he's better than people give him credit for. On the other hand though, I still would like to see what Henne can do with a new offensive system. I still have faith in him.
C-Pepe=Ryan Cook Harrington=David Jones Rosenfels=not going to bother Thigpen=??? Anywho, point being the value of the pick has rarely ever amounted to anything, and aside from C-Pepe, all of those qb's were not what Orton is, a solid starting Qb who is under 30 and improving.
Just for fun, and comparison's sake, look at our last ten years of 2nd rounders. How many of them turned out better or as good at their position as Orton is at his? Half? Maybe?
Why all the love for Luck? Alex Smith, Tim Couch were suppose to take the NFL by storm, one is flipping burgers and the other is barely hanging on.
Its all relative to what you do with the picks....for this regime the one thing the do unquestionably well is come out of every draft with 3-5 roster guys. Thats outstanding for a league that accepts a failure rate in drafts of around 50% + What the good teams usually do is trade their veterans for picks...see New England, Pitt, Philly. How many times do they go in to drafts with extra picks? Seemingly every year! Yes clearly picks are not the way to the top, just trade them all!
So we're talking in cliches now? First two seasons, he has 74 catches, 1121 yds, 4 TDs receiving, and 56 yds rushing with one TD. Ginn for his first two seasons had 90 catches, 1210 yds, 4 TDs receiving, and 76 yds rushing with 2 TDs, along with 1 TD on an 87 yd punt return. So don't bring that weak sh!t to me, that Hartline shows up and makes plays anymore than Ginn did over the time period of his career. People used to whine and complain, that oh Ginn runs out of bounds, or gets on the ground to avoid taking on a defender and so that made him a big wuss. Well, Hartline does much the same thing, avoiding and shying away from contact and looking to get on the ground to avoid tackles too. He goes down from phantom tackles every bit as often as Ginn did.
The question here isn't how many QBs drafted in the past 5 years in the second round have been better than Orton. The question isn't what we have done with our draft picks in the past decade. The question isn't how trading draft picks for QBs have worked out in the past decade. The question. The one and only question that has any relevance at all to this subject is what can we do with this 2012 second/third round pick in a draft that's going to be as talent rich at the top of the QB class (our most glaring need) as any draft has been in the past 7 years. That's the one and only thing that matters. What we do with it, I don't know. What we can do with it though is use it as ammunition to trade into the top 10 of the draft to take one of those top QB prospects. And ladies and gentlemen, until we get serious about the QB position, make a power play and draft a guy high in the draft we're going to continue to languish in oblivion with no franchise quarterback. The longer we continue to throw draft picks at other teams rejects the longer it's going to take us to get it right.
2nd round draft picks since 2000..... 2010 LB Koa Misi 2009 QB Pat White DB Sean Smith 2008 DE Phillip Merling QB Chad Henne 2007 QB John Beck C Samson Satele 2006 No pick 2005 DE Matt Roth 2004 No pick 2003 LB Eddie Moore 2002 No pick 2001 WR Chris Chambers 2000 T Todd Wade
Ginn had 178 targets his first two years Hartline had 129 targets his first two years I'm not sure Hartline shys away from contact. He's a damn good blocker. He played special teams as a rookie, and in college was a very good special teams player as well.
Well he sure knows how to find the ground in a crowd of defenders. So either he is as much a wuss as Ginn, or just rather clumsy afoot. YMMV. Just going by the data from the University of My Eyes.
The stats do not agree: Brian Hartline YAC per reception the last two years: 5.7 yds and 5.0 yds Ted Ginn YAC per reception the last two years: 1.4 yds and 1.6 yds
How the hell did this devolve into a Ted Ginn thread. Please take that **** back to 2 years ago. Thank you.
No disagreement there, but I believe the topic was who shows up and "makes plays". Your argument seems to be focused on who's the better WR overall.
I did it. Feel free to put me on ignore if you find it that upsetting. Threads are like conversations. They often start out on a particular topic and then veer off onto a different topic. Sorry to upset you Walter. Guess what? I roll on Shabbos too.
It began with my saying, I couldn't care less if Hartline thinks we need another QB or not. We could use an upgrade at his position just as much as at QB...IMO. YMMV
Good article on the subject by Len Pasquarelli, http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-pasquarelli_trade_market_is_tricky_070711 Also just for fun did a little researching and here is what I found, In the last 15 years trading up in the draft to get a qb resulted in: 2011 JAX Blaine Gabbert - Rookie 2009 NYJ Mark Sanchez - 6 playoff games with Jets 2008 BAL Joe Flacco - 7 playoff games with Ravens 2006 DEN Jay Cutler - Probowler in 2008, broke passing records held by Plummer and Elway with Broncos 2004 NYG Eli Manning - 7 playoff games and Won a Superbowl with Giants 2001 ATL Michael Vick - 4 playoff games for Falcons 1999 MIN Daunte Culpepper - 4 playoff games for Vikings 1998 SDC Ryan Leaf Biggest bust of all time. FYI Culpepper and Leaf trades were for only one spot up.
I understand threads often divert to other topics. But I also know from countless first hand experiences that Ted Ginn threads never end well.
I hate to 2nd guess decisions, but I'm curious about what Ginn could have done if he had Brandon Marshall on the other side of the field. I suppose we'll get somewhat of an answer with Mr. Edmund Gates.
A lot of talk about draft picks, next year's QB crop, and some draft busts. No bias, no hidden agenda, just throwing out some facts. Take them however you choose In parentheses are the number of QBs drafted in that year and the names listed are the names of QBs who are a starter in the NFL/had a noteworth career. I went back to 1998 because that's the latest year any QB would have qualified for this list. I didn't include 2010 or 2011 becase it's too early to make a determination on them. 1998 (7) - Peyton Manning, Matt Hasselbeck 1999 (13) - Donovan McNabb 2000 (11) - Chad Pennington, Tom Brady 2001 (11) - Michael Vick, Drew Brees 2002 (15) - None, seriously, look at this draft 2003 (13) - Carson Palmer 2004 (17) - Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Schaub 2005 (13) - Alex Smith, Aaron Rodger, Jason Campbell, Kyle Orton, Matt Cassel, Ryan Fitzpatrick 2006 (11) - Vince Young, Jay Cutler, Tarvaris Jackson 2007 (10) - Kevin Kolb (maybe) 2008 (13) - Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Chad Henne 2009 (11) - Matt Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman Out of 145 QBs drafted in the 12 years included 28 of them have had any real success. Of those 28 QBs, 18 of them were drafted in the first round, they are as follows: Peyton Manning Donovan McNabb Chad Pennington Michael Vick Carson Palmer Eli Manning Philip Rivers Ben Roethlisberger Alex Smith Aaron Rodgers Jason Campbell Vince Young Jay Cutler Matt Ryan Joe Flacco Matt Stafford Mark Sanchez Josh Freeman Below are the other 15 players drafted in the first round who could be qualified as busts Ryan Leaf Tim Couch Akili Smith Daunte Culpepper Cade McNown David Carr Joey Harrington Patrick Ramsey Byron Leftwich Kyle Boller Rex Grossman J.P Losman Matt Leinart JaMarcus Russel Brady Quinn
One thing that stood out to me while compiling that data is how the QB busts are dispersed. Ryan Leaf was a bust in 1998, there were 2 QBs worth a damn in that draft and Manning was already gone. Tim Couch, Cade McNown, Daunte Culpepper and Akili Smith were all busts, but there was one QB in that draft worth anything. Carr, Harrington and Ramsey in 2002, there were NO good QBs in that draft. 2003 and 2007 were the same for Leftwich, Boller, Grossman, Russel and Quinn. However, in the talent rich drafts 2004, 2008 and 2009 there was one first round bust and that was J.P. Losman and come on, do we expect the Bills to get anything right? The fact of the matter is there are good years to draft QBs and they come few and far between. Anyone who could evaluate talent on a pee wee level could see that 2002, 2003 and 2007, and yes I do believe 2011 were bad years to draft QBs. But in a QB driven league people are going to overdraft them leading to a large discrepancy in first round busts at the position. However, much like 2004, 2008 and 2009 I do believe 2012 will give us the richest crop of QBs since the Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger/Schaub draft. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Culpepper was pretty good for awhile. I wouldn't call him a bust. I would however, put Alex Smith in the bust category. As for drafting a 1st round QB, I see it as the safest way to get a franchise QB. People think it's a crap shoot b/c there are some ridiculous picks, but over the years I find that my success rate on the first round QBs I have evaluated is a little better than 80%. IMO that is better odds than trading for a second tier vet.
I went back and forth on Culpepper whether to label him a bust or not. I finally decided to because his success was short lived and many still atrribut it to have Randy Moss to throw to
That was my guess, but I can't label a guy who had a 5 year run and was almost the league MVP a bust.
I contend that it is not luck, the nature of the draft is constant, occasionally there is a 1983 or 1989 draft class, that is incredibly rare. Draft choices simply are not worth what fans perceive they are worth. Philly used to, for fun, take a look at who the patriots got for the Matt Cassell picks: Pat Chung at #34 A good player, Cassel had a monster yr in 2010, 27 Td's to 7 int's You tell me B14, who won that one?
