Todd & I were discussing a lack of speed at the flanker position. Your opinion IIRC was that Hartline was plenty fast enough, and that our WR group as a whole was plenty good enough, they just needed a better QB. I wasnt attributing the OL/RB statements to you, I was pointing out that our draft picks targeted specific areas of need, outside of the perceived need for a new QB. I'm curious. Which games did Henne play "poorly" in?
Correct. Hartline is plenty fast enough, and I believe our WR group was good enough. That doesn't mean they were perfect. That doesn't mean they didn't need to add speed. Gates isn't going to replace Hartline, Bess, or Marshall. BUF, NE, CIN (this game was the nail in the coffin IMO), CLE, NYJ, BUF, DET, NE.
The most glaring to me was with ~2:00 left in the game and Henne took a sack. He should have thrown the ball to Marshall who was running a corner route. There was also another corner route that got Marshall open, but Chad Henne severly overthrew him. I'm sure everyone remembers the play where Marshall got behind the defense (shocking, because I never knew he had that kind of speed), and the QB underthrew the ball. There were others, but those were 3 plays off the top of my head that should have been easy (relatively speaking) big plays.
I also seem to remember Brian Hartline running free a number of times as I watched the Rewind of that game, and Henne just never looked at him, which highlights flaws in his pre-snap reading.
Perhaps. And maybe our 7 man protection should've been able to handle a six man pass rush w/o allowing a free runner right up the middle. Pass Pro is an inside out game, and any free runners should be coming off the edge. Not there should've been any free runners when we leave 7 guys in. My guess is that Henne held the ball thinking he had more time than he did and that by the time he saw the pressure it was too late. I never saw a wide angle or the WR cam so I cant speak to the route so I'll take your word that Marshall was in fact open. Either way, the OL screwed Henne on that play. Bad throws happen, especially in wind like that. Did you see what happened to Carpenter's FG attempt before the half? Or Lindell's try? Marshall used a double move, fake the dig-go deep to get open. That's great route running not great speed. And the ball, underthrown into a stiff wind, still hit Marshall in his hands. Sure the pass could've been better, but Marshall is an top tier WR, I think he'd tell you he should've made that play. He even apolgized to Henne when he got back to the huddle. That was pretty nice of him IMO. A blown protection, a dropped pass and one overthrow. All Henne's fault? C'mon man. Henne makes more than enough mistakes to where we don't have to scapegoat him for others' mistakes.
No, the ball should have been out much sooner, before Marshall even made his break. Regardless of whether the OL made a mistake or not, Henne had the opportunity to get the first down. The wind is no excuse. The pass was 10 yards under thrown. We are talking about someone who supposedly is among the top 20 QBs in the entire world.
Dude, the pressure was there in a hair over 3 seconds. How could Henne have gotten the ball out "much sooner" on a corner route to a WR who had trouble even getting off the LOS. You're not making any sense. Not an excuse, a scientific fact. If you throw a football into the wind it will land sooner and shorter than it otherwise would. Bad throw yeah, but if Marshall had done his job it would still have been a big play. Not a TD like it should've been but still a big play.
This is the point where Henne should have thrown the ball: Thats when he should have released the ball, instead he started his motion, stopped, tried to look to the other side, and ended up being sacked. It was a lack of decisiveness and/or lack of confidence in making that throw accurately. Well, obviously Chad Henne didn't understand that. Brandon Marshall making a bad play has nothing to do with Chad Henne making a bad play. As you said yourself, it was a BAD THROW.
It's especially hard to find a great QB when you won't go after a guy in the first round. Makes me think of another popular misconception: If we would have picked Matt Ryan over Jake Long there is no way we could have possibly obtained a LT who was better than a turnstile.
I'm quite thankful for Jake Long. And I believe he's a fantastic player. Probably the top left tackle in the game. But, the team would be better off with Matt Ryan. That's just the way it goes. I think you bring up a great misconception. Which is tougher to find? A quarterback worth a damn, or a left tackle worth a damn? They're both hard, but you should get the quarterback before you get the left tackle, because the quarterback is the bigger part of the team's success. A left tackle is only valuable BECAUSE of the quarterback. He lets a good quarterback be a good quarterback. So it's kind of bass ackward to prioritize the left tackle first and the quarterback after. Why do you think defensive ends are so valuable? They impact the quarterback position, don't let a good quarterback be a good quarterback.
If I were to regress quarterback rating disparity (a team offense's QB Rating minus the team defense's QB Rating) against win totals...for the last two decades...do you think the correlation percentage has been rising or staying the same? My guess would be rising.
Thanks a bunch for the overhead look. I'll have to disagree with you that he should've thrown that ball to Marshall. There's 2 mins to go, the D has been dominant for most of the day, we're in good field position. Why risk trying to fit that ball into double coverage, and tricky wind conditions, especially w/ a 3 pt lead to protect? If anything he should've looked to Bess, the only guy w/ single coverage and the guy he'd hit for a 9 yd on a similar route earlier in the drive. Henne was being careful w/ the ball and I have no issue w/ that. If he throws a pick there it could easily have cost us the game. And then you'd be killing him for not taking the sack.
ronnie and ricky are shells of their former selves, I'd be suprised if either could crack a 4.5..same goes for cobbs, I know marshall will tell you he didn't have his speed, and bess is self explanatory..bad argument imo..use the eyes in this case, we have a very slow football team..
wrong..the reasons I cited were to show that the benching was unjust relative to a 2nd year starting QB's performance level, and that the team's win loss record and the QB' stats were affected by players and variables surrounding that position yet can directly affect the perception that the QB was playing poorly.
i'am sorry I missed your question the first time, just caught it going back.. you could if you wish, but what does Henne have to do with ronnie running the football on first and 2nd down..You can put blame on Henning for not giving him enough carries, however at over 200 carries and at 3 and a half a clip, can't say I dont blame Henning.You can say the interior line played poorly for him and Iam sure there's others..However when I watched the tape I saw ronnie running poorly, making bad decisions, fumbling the football in bad situations, half assin it on occassion, not playing with an aggressive nature, I watched him closely to make the conclusions that I stated..could he come back and have a great year with better variables?, I think so, as long as he gets in great shape. i've stated that I would take him back and be excited with him and DT..
I stole this from marinefan, iam sure he wont mind.. Have you ever even looked at Henne's stats when he's inside scoring position? Last season when the Dolphins were inside their opponents 20 yard line he completed 60% of his passes and had 10 TD's and 2 INT's with an 89 QBR. Yeah..piss poor. Sanchez completed 50% of his passes with 12 TD's, 2 INT's and an 86 QBR. And remember, Sanchez never got yanked for the WC down there. And just for fun: When the Dolphins are backed up inside their own 20 yd line : Henne: 60% comp, 0 TD's, 0 INT, 81 QBR Sanchez: 54% comp, 0 TD's, 0 INT, 75 QBR Just wanna keep some perspective...2nd year starter.
Excellent point, Aqua. B/C were not attacking the seam the safety is able to cheat over to Marshall and take him away. That was a problem all year long along w/ not attacking the flats. Good offenses force opposing teams to defend the entire field, and we sucked at that. Gawd I hate Henning too.
Really? I have Rewind and the original on DVR and I never saw an overhead look for that play. Where'd you see it?
I'm guessing there are countless posts on this board that would cause a professional personnel man to chuckle. Or throw up.
Methodology? What would you call personal observation and evaluation? Just because your eyes do not agree with what his eyes saw, does not mean his findings are any less relevant.
Behind the same line, Ricky didn't dance too much, or show indecisiveness or lack of vision. He was able to average over 4 ypc behind the same interior people. So you and Ronnie can't use the line as an excuse.
I have no idea how one would think i'am making excuses for Henne but how bout this one. He's directing the 3rd youngest team in the league last year, A team that started a complete rebuild 2 years prior. How bout we compare Henne with QB's who were drafted by a team that picked number #1 in the draft, in their 1st year starting with that team.That should give you some paralells because of how the QB functioned and evolved, with obviously a lot of flaws on the team around him, hence picking #1 overall...He played in the 2nd and 3rd year of a complete rebuild so your gonna have lot's of team weaknesses before you get enough drafts and free agency periods under your belt to be a balanced team.. Henne and Bradford won 7 games, henne did it with fewer oppurtunities, both posted nearly identical passer ratings 75 to 76..One was the #1 overall pick, the other is a late 2nd rounder.. I do understand him holding the clipboard for that extra year, but if people do all this comparing stuff, than Iam trying to find some common denominators for which to do so fairly.
He looked especially bad covering that kick off that Tate ran back for a TD, and for his poor blocking on the punt team that caused a blocked punt. I seem to recall he allowed a blocked FG too and then didn't prevent it being ran in for a TD. That 74% comp pct and 82 QB rating were pretty bad too. My opinion also disagrees with your opinion on @Buff, Cincy, NYJ, Buff and Detroit. I'm not going to hash over the reasoning, because those games have benn talked about ad naseam ad infinitum already.
While Ryan was highly regarded, I don't think he was considered a slam dunk high pick like say Peyton, Bradford, Palmer, Rivers or Eli were. He had some bad habits in college, like taking too many unnecessary risks, as I recall. His comp pct wasn't quite 60% as a senior and he threw 19 ints. In his defense, I don't think his BC team's offense was considered all that talented, other than him.
Your comparing a third year player with a rookie. I would say compare him with Flacco or Ryan, but people will just fall back on the team argument. How instead about Josh Freeman? Anyone here who would decline a straight Freeman for Henne trade? Young QB, very raw coming out, similarly young team (even younger perhaps). Coincidentally, all 3 of these QBs were ranked in the top 100 players in the entire NFL by their peers. Those two picks were pretty ugly. Put TDs on the board instead of INTs and maybe we avoid that special team nightmare.
Rivers was never considered a slam dunk. I can recall at least two highly respected members on this board calling him a "4th rounder at best" at which point I laughed and walked away from the conversation. But even from media and scouting and mock draft sites he was considered a late 2/early 3 when the draft process started that year after the CFB and NFL season were over before he started his meteoric rise to the early first round.
Or say Sanchez, Jamarcus Russel, and Brady Quinn? Too bad we couldn't find the balls to take one of those 1st round QBs.
Year of holding a clipboard and an offseason under Pennington. That is significant. Oh and brandon marshall and davone bess.
Missed that part sorry man. But since there is so little to speak about with the lockout, why not toss on some more fuel. Similar QB rating, sure. However, Bradford in his first year had more TDs than Henne, and less INTs than Henne in his most recent. In his two starting years, Henne has not thrown more TD's than INTs, which Bradford managed this past year. Bradford also managed to make a Raven's castoff look like an allstar, whereas Henne made an allstar look like a castoff. Because I know it will come ... yeah Jackson is better than R&R, but our wideouts eclipse the Rams'. As for the records (because as you point out, both went 7-9), Henne took the Phins from 11-5 to a pair of 7-9 finishes. Bradford took the Rams from 1-15 to 7-9.
