Neither. I still feel he can be a good QB, but I'm not going to make excuses for him the way everyone else is. Fact is, he was bad last year and is a weakness of the team.
I cannot see logic in putting any precise timeline on an apparent benefit, if in fact Parcells even actually said it. Like I said before, I'm not entirely convinced he did. If he really felt that way, to let it out would go against much of what he preached to players about running a tight ship.
I don't think the draft was as much about Henne as it was about what was available. Really it was about the comparison. IMO Gabbert, Newton and CKap were the three who could potentially be franchise guys. I wouldn't say that their chances of fulfilling that were great though. If Luck were in this draft I would have been in favor of trading the whole draft and them some b/c I feel his chance of becoming a franchise guy is very high. I didn't feel that about the guys in this draft. I would have been fine taking any of them at 15, but not trading b/c additional picks seemed a poor risk/reward situation. Locker I saw as a 4th round talent. Ponder as a 2nd round guy, basically a future Trent Edwards, decent but not a franchise guy. Mallett I saw as a third round guy. So while the "anybody but Henne" crowd may have been mollified with us reaching for a QB, I'm glad we didn't go for the bad gamble. I like Bulger, but I wouldn't call him a clear upgrade. Orton is about the same, but Henne at least has more potential. Palmer pre-injury was a clear upgrade, now it's closer and I wouldn't spend much to bring in yet another injury prone player. I want competition since I don't trust Henne, but I don't want to waste picks so that when we get the chance to draft a franchise guy we're sitting around wishing we had more to trade up with. I think Parcells' does a poor job with QBs. I agree that he screwed up Beck. Bledsoe he walked into and IMO Simms succeeded in spite of Parcells. Henne has some weapons that actually may be complementary now. If Daboll does a good job using them then I believe Henne will be as good or better than any of the options being bandied about. And by that I mean not a franchise guy, but capable of getting as far as Eli Manning, Sanchez or Ryan has with their teams.
All these excuses made for Henne could be made for Ronnie Brown. If Ronnie Brown had a better OL, better QB, and better WRs, he'd have played better. Ronnie Brown should be given more chances.
actually GM we did pretty good in the up and down the field part, finishing 13th in first downs as an offense..
You could say it about anyone. The bottom line is, when Chad Henne throws an inaccurate pass, its his fault. When he makes a bad read pre-snap its his fault. When he stares down a receiver, its his fault. Its not hard to watch the offense and determine who messed up and why.
I wouldn't have drafted Newton even if he had been available at #12. Not a fan. We obviously disagree on Ponder. I would have been all over him at #12 and I think that he'll do quite well with the Vikings. He's smart, a game manager, very athletcic, great runner, very accurate and I think that he'll blend in very well with the offensive talent on that team, making good use of Peterson, Harvin, Rice, etc. That last part of course assumes that Rice resigns with the Vikings. As to Bulger, I don't think that he's a clear upgrade, but nonetheless he might be one and at least he would be a valuable backup- and that we need. I'm still intrigued by Thigpen, but he has an awful lot to prove and it's not even certain that he'll be on our roster iirc.
I read the post. It was pretty clear what you were doing. You were denigrating every member of the offense in order to make Chad Henne look better. To say that Brandon Marshall has "no speed" is ridiculous. Ludicrous. What speed did the Cardinals have with Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin on the wings? As for what I said with respect to the Tight End position, I said I want a QUALITY role player for #2 Tight End. That could have come in a number of forms. It shouldn't be hard to find a quality role player for that #2 spot but the Dolphins tried to do it ridiculously with guys off the trash bin. There were eight Tight Ends I backed in this year's Draft. One of them was Kyle Rudolph. Do you consider him a "seam busting" Tight End? Another was Luke Stocker. Is he a "seam buster"? I've thrown my full weight of endorsement behind Zach Pianalto whom the Fins have shown interest in as a UDFA. I've also endorsed Allen Reisner the same way. Are they "seam busters"?
I was merely stating the truth. I did not say the people who don't like Henne have no agenda. I was merely identifying the reason certain people are denigrating the talent of the players surrounding Chad Henne. It's in order to make him look good. And I'd prefer a quarterback that doesn't prompt the fanbase to denigrate his teammates in order to make him look good. I'd prefer a quarterback that prompts the fanbase to think the players around him are better than they really are.
There isn't any evidence that the weaknesses are inherent to those players or the effect Chad Henne had in contributing.
I consider a few of them to be exaggerations, at best. And the entire list serves only to over-emphasize something that should not have been nearly the factor you seem to be claiming it was.
I disagree, I'am pointing them out because I feel those issues had just as much reason for us being 7 and 9 as the QB, also, I 100 percent believe they played a major role in the benching. The only reason where I feel there is justification in benching Henne, is because the coach felt that Pennington was the teams starter before he got injured, and when he got his health back, he got his job back, plain and simple, the problem with that is not handling the situation to the public in the best manner, and making sure you are not messing with your young QB's confidence and how the team perceives him.
What you call denigrating, someone else may call an accurate analysis. Just because you do not agree, does not make their opinion any less forum worthy.
I listed evidence when I stated those weaknesses as a football team, which I don't think I needed to even do, I think most of us can agree they were front and center on our ballclub.
DJ watched the players he mentioned and gave his opinions on them based on his personal observations. What else does he need? Why not go back and watch the same games yourself, and create your own threads with your own analysis, rather than discounting what he saw?
Someone posted the stats for deep pass accuracy a few weeks ago. Did you see it? I do not recall the exact numbers but his deep passing accuracy while not close to the best wasn't much different than several other starting QBs who are well regarded. The one thing I do remember is Henne had 40 attempts and that was one of the lowest totals amongst regular starters.
Simple, but time-exhaustive study for those that truly want to make the case that the Miami offense lacked speed. Find the 40 times of all the players on the offense (preferably use the same source for all of them), snap-weight them, and start comparing with some other more productive offenses. I have no doubt that Miami's would come out in the lower half of the league, but would be surprised if the weighted average speed of the offense was considerably less than other productive passing offenses like those of the Colts, Giants, Patriots, etc. I think you'll find other productive passing offenses that approach the same speed. For instance, let's do a sample case study. Miami Dolphins Players - Passing Routes - 40 Time (C = Combine; P = Pro Day; E = Estimate) Brandon Marshall - 517 - 4.52 C Davone Bess - 464 - 4.64 C Brian Hartline - 404 - 4.52 C Marlon Moore - 138 - 4.49 P Roberto Wallace - 47 - 4.48 P Kevin Curtis - 47 - 4.42 C Anthony Fasano - 365 - 4.72 P Jeron Mastrud - 31 - 4.82 E Mickey Shuler - 62 - 4.63 P John Nalbone - 2 - 4.67 P Dedrick Epps - 16 - 4.7 P Ronnie Brown - 236 - 4.43 C Lousaka Polite - 118 - 4.68 C Ricky Williams - 156 - 4.56 C Patrick Cobbs - 69 - 4.73 P Lex Hilliard - 10 - 4.68 C New York Giants Players - Passing Routes - 40 Time (C = Combine; P = Pro Day; E = Estimate) Hakeem Nicks - 480 - 4.51 C Mario Manningham - 444 - 4.59 C Steve L. Smith - 322 - 4.44 C Derek Hagan - 173 - 4.45 C Michael Clayton - 45 - 4.67 C Ramses Barden - 28 - 4.55 C Duke Calhoun - 22 - 4.49 P Victor Cruz - 4 - 4.47 P Devin Thomas - 1 - 4.4 C Kevin Boss - 361 - 4.78 C Travis Beckum - 134 - 4.61 P Jake Ballard - 3 - 4.84 E Ahmad Bradshaw - 274 - 4.55 C Bear Pascoe - 122 - 4.96 C Brandon Jacobs - 100 - 4.56 C Madison Hedgecock - 16 - 4.87 C Danny Ware - 12 - 4.61 P Now, the Giants produced 4000+ yards passing and 31 passing TDs this year. They had the 7th most productive offense in the NFL on a points per game basis. I think we'd all agree that Eli Manning is not an "elite" quarterback, either...so choosing the Giants as a basis for comparison isn't exactly unfair inasmuch as comparing Miami's passing offense led by Chad Henne to an offense led by a quarterback that even Henne's staunchest backers admit he'll never be (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, etc). New York Giants' Weighted Average 40 Time - 4.589 Miami Dolphins' Weighted Average 40 Time - 4.579 Now ask yourself, how much water does this "lack of speed" argument really hold?
I guess that's one way to put it. The other way to put it would be that the study showed that Chad Henne's deep accuracy was 2nd worst among all the QBs measured, if I remember correctly.
No, he cited poor performance from others as the reason Chad Henne was a bad QB. Yet there was no methodology to support the conclusions he reached.
The other thing to consider about the deep accuracy stuff is what MrClean identified, the Dolphins didn't take many shots down the field. What's interesting about that, is according to Dan Henning himself, in principles of his passing offense that he's laid out, he likes about 17% of his pass attempts to be "deep" (20+ yards down the field). In Carolina, his quarterbacks (both Jake Delhomme and Rodney Peete, individually and collectively) did throw the ball down the field "deep" about 16 or 17% of the time, exactly as Henning has laid out. Henne and Pennington did it about half that rate, from 2008 to 2010. Is that Sparano's influence? Or is that two conservative quarterbacks being conservative? With Pennington, you could usually excuse his lack of deep shots (his whole career), because he was one of the most accurate deep ball throwers in the NFL. He may always rank low in deep shots as a percentage, but he didn't necessarily rank low in deep completions or yardage. What's Chad Henne's excuse, then?
So now we're naming all of Sanchez' successes, ignoring his failures, and doing the exact opposite w/ Henne? I guess if you were a Jets fan you'd ignore the Browns, Lions, Broncos etc games and zero in on how Sanchez "melted down" against the Ravens, Bears, Patriots and Dolphins. Not sure why you insist on having a double standard, but it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Does that mean you're not going to watch the games and come up w/ your own observations? Ironically, DJ, the guy you're ridiculing, had an opinion very similar to yours before he went back and watched the games. I'd venture that 90% of the Henne bashers haven't watched the games more than once. CK is an exception, but for the most part people are going off of their memories.
This is ridiculous. I've watched the games ten times over, and I've provided video and photo evidence of things I saw numerous times. I would suggest refraining from assumptions like that.
Dadgummit you're right. Let's just go out and dial 1-800-GREAT-QB and Dan Marino will show up at our doorstep in 30 mins or less. Your question is irrelevant b/c getting a GREAT QB is not an option. Unless you think Mark Bulger is great. Vince Young maybe. The Giants have been to the Super Bowl 5 times w/ guys like Simms, Hostetler, Collins & Eli. Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Chris Chandler, Neil O'donnell, Jim McMahon, Steve Grogan, Troy Aikman. Rex Grossman, Matt Hasselbeck. A great QB is nice to have, but it's certainly not a necessity.
Ronnie Brown was given 5 years. He still lacks vision, still dances too much, can't threaten the edge. He's only stays healthy every other season, and at 29 he's probably on the downside of his career. Any more facetious arguments you want to put out there?
You are ignoring the obvious variables out there which led to what many casual observers would refer to as poor play. However, if you actually go back and comb through the tape, you'll see that Ronnie Brown was set up for failure by his less-than-stellar teammates. It seems like the Ronnie Brown bashers are only looking at stats, when there is much more there. Imagine if Adrian Peterson were a Dolphin? With that awful interior OL people would be saying he dances too much LOL
No thanks. If you had started any significant Henne threads in the past few months I'd have seen them. I've seen every single one of DJs, I doubt I could've missed all of yours.
Tell that to Jeff Ireland. Apparently he hasn't combed through the tape either b/c he traded up in the draft to acquire Ronnie's replacement.
Sure, why not? It also applies when Ireland took Gates to add the speed you dismiss as unimportant. It applies to the Pouncey pick b/c our interior OL was a problem area all season long. It applies to Clay as well b/c we had garbage on the depth chart behind Fasano and no real check down threats to serve as a security blanket for the QB. Here Ireland is, addressing all of the problems that are clear as day to some of us, and yet others us are still obsessed w/ the QB. It's like the draft never even happened. Chad Henne will be the starting QB in 2011, it's damn near etched in stone at this point. Why we continue w/ these bash sessions is a mystery.
When did I say speed is unimportant or that our OL was any good on the interior? When did anyone say our RBs were any good? This has to be the biggest strawman I've seen. This team had many issues offensively. That doesn't absolve Chad Henne from playing poorly, just like Chad Henne's poor play doesnt absolve Pat McQuistan or Joe Berger from playing poorly.
