Yup, and the did it all by themselves because none of their teams had any other talent at all. Those 3 QBs just willed them all to play better and willed the teams to victory.
No, absolutely not. You need a great QB and a great defense. One or the other alone won't do it. Its basically who has a better defense between PIT, NE, and IND.
So, you agree those 3 didn't win AFC championships or Super Bowls all by themselves? They had very good teams with lots talent around them? What was Pitts' record when Ben was suspended? How did NE do when Tom was out with a knee in 2008? And the next Tom, Ben or Peyton wasn't in the last draft, so what should we do, just keep changing for the sake of change? We didn't draft Mallett so we are destined for eternal suckitude.
Correct. I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting we keep bad players at any position. I don't see anyone making the argument that Marlon Moore could be a good player if you put lots of talent around him. The only player that is being given that treatment is the QB. You don't change for the sake of change. You improve the QB position, because if you don't you lose the team and have to start over again. We certainly don't have much of a chance at a SB this season, but that doesn't mean you don't improve the QB position. There is no one player thats going to be the answer. You never rely on one player that hasn't proven himself. You acquire talent, try to improve the position, and work toward having a great QB. You don't tell the rest of the team that they need to carry dead weight.
When people talk about being fair to Henne it is in the evaluation. It seems obvious that the Dolphins want to upgrade the QB position and went into the draft looking at all the options there. They just concluded that there weren't upgrades available given what they had to work with and the players that came out. IMO the biggest misconception is that there were/are all these QBs available (or perhaps any) that are an upgrade to Henne given a fair evaluation.
True and not true. The Phins could have pushed for a trade up with Dallas to #9 for Gabbert, who they apparently liked a lot and I concur. Tyron Smith would most likely have been available at #12 imo. I feel pretty strongly that they would have taken Locker or Ponder if available, and those damned Vikings had to pull the trigger on Ponder. I know that you weren't a particularly big fan of his, I was. Henne- he's endured a boat load of criticism, some fair, some not. Two things gnaw at me: first that Parcells basically said that he wasn't the guy for the job. The second is the reports that his teammates were overjoyed when Henne was replaced. Both of those factors are very troublesome imo. Regardless, if he comes out strong next season he will undoubtedly shut up a lot of his critics.
that we will move forward to top tier play under the leadership of Sparano & Henne. both need to be replaced before we can contend.
Heres a theory, from top to bottom on offense I would say we were far behind a lot of teams in the talent dept.. Ronnie, bottom third in ypc..no speed. Ricky..34years old...no speed. Marshall..top 10..no speed. Bess..Top 10 as a 2nd receiver...no speed. Fasano..not top 10..no speed. Wallace.. 4th receiver..bottom third..no hands Moore.. 5th receiver..bottom third...no hands.. Cobbs.. scatback..bottom third..no speed.. Shuler.. 2nd tight end..bottom third..no speed.
1. Brandon Marshall "no speed" is absolutely ridiculous. He's made plays deep his whole career. He ran a 4.52 at the Combine. Brandon Lloyd was among the most productive deep threat WRs in the NFL this year and he ran a 4.62 at the Combine. Malcolm Floyd ran a 4.48 on his own campus. Dwayne Bowe ran a 4.51 at the Combine. Mario Manningham ran a 4.59 at the Combine. Josh Morgan ran a 4.46 on campus, and Braylon Edwards ran a 4.45 on campus. Miles Austin ran a 4.47 at the Combine. That's just naming guys that you'll find listed in the NFL's top 16 highest yards per catch averages, from among starters that played 50+ percent of snaps this year. 2. Anthony Fasano ran a 4.72 at his Pro Day. Jason Witten ran a 4.67 at his Pro Day. Marcedes Lewis ran 4.80 at the Combine and Zach Miller ran a 4.87 at the Combine. So the latter three can be considered big time receiving threats as tight ends, having produced collectively 1.8 yards per route they ran in 2010, but when Anthony Fasano (who is just as fast as them if not faster than a few of them) goes out and produces 1.5 yards per route, he has "no speed". Anthony Fasano caught 100% of passes thrown at him 20+ yards down the field, with a 30.0 yards per attempt average. He caught 78% of balls thrown between 10 and 19 yards downfield, with a 12.6 yards per attempt...altogether catching 81% of his passes 10+ yards down the field with a 15.1 yards per attempt. The other three combined to catch only 61% of passes thrown at them 10+ yards down the field with only an 11.6 yards per attempt average. They combined to catch 50% of the passes thrown at them 20+ yards down the field with only 11.7 yards per attempt. This is just getting ludicrous. People clearly have an agenda here, and so they'll do anything to trash the talent of every other member of the Miami Dolphins' offense in order to make Chad Henne look good. Well that's not the kind of quarterback I want on my team. I'd rather have a guy on my team that convinces the fans that everyone on the offense is pretty awesome, even if they're really not. When we acquired Brandon Marshall he was an undisputed #1 WR in this league, a Top 5 (or 6 at worst) receiver in the game. Now, he's got "no speed" and his insufficiency made Chad Henne look bad. It was the other way around, but good luck getting people to admit that when they know that doing so gives them very little hope for how the Dolphins will do this year.
Bingo. I especially “liked” how people used Marshall’s being the victim of a crime to somehow prove that he was inadequate to the task of being an elite receiver. IMO, the guy is the third best WR in the NFL behind Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald. Chad Henne specifically mentioned Marshall in a 2010 offseason interview as a WR he would love to have. He got his wish and the offense stunk. That’s on Henne. This fanbase gets way too emotionally invested and tied up in halfass QBs.
I would love if Chad Henne would go ahead and take that next step. It'd be the easiest answer to the Dolphins' problems in the world. The guy already on your roster. But let's face it, what are the odds of that? Among QUALITY quarterbacks out there, I can only think of two that had similar problems not passing the football well in either of their first two years as starters. Those were Eli Manning and Drew Brees. And Eli, his first two years as starter, he was 19-13 in the regular season and led his team to the playoffs both years. I was among Eli's most vocal critics his first three years in the league, but if Chad Henne had been able to lead the Dolphins to good records and playoff berths, I'd probably be a little softer on him and more willing to see more. That's the situation Mark Sanchez is in right now. I don't think Mark Sanchez is a very good quarterback but I'm not going to roast the Jets for wanting to see more, based on the simple fact that Sanchez is 19-12 in the regular season, and in six playoff games he's got a 4-2 record with a 94.3 QB Rating. If I were a diehard Jets fan, I may be uncomfortable with Sanchez, but I'd probably also want to see more chances for my #5 overall pick based on those things. But Chad Henne doesn't fit any of that. He's not only had sh-tty passing success both years, he's 13-14 as a starter, no playoff berths, has performed poorly both years down the stretch when the team has been trying to mount a playoff run, he's been mixed (at best) in late game situations, and he wasn't showing any improvement by the end of this 27-29 game run. His last 5 games were worst than his first 5 games. If I'm going to keep buying on a 2nd round pick and not see him as the next Andrew Walter, you've got to give me SOMETHING here. Chad Henne hasn't done that. All he's done is make good players look insufficient. You know, Brandon Marshall walks into the game a Top 5 WR and now he's insufficient. An offensive line featuring Jake Long (best LT in the league) and Vernon Carey as the bookends, is "putrid". A wide receiver that's averaged over 15 yards per catch in his first two seasons in the league is slow and is the reason Chad Henne can't be accurate on the deep ball. I'd love for all this to not be as clear as it is, but it is and I think the sooner we realize that, the better. Maybe he does do a total 180, the way Drew Brees seemingly did. I don't know. But I do know that in San Diego, Drew Brees' total reversal coincidentally coincided with the team drafting Phil Rivers at #4 overall. Do we really think that the signing of a Marc Bulger would function the same? The other thing is, with Brees you knew something had changed pretty quickly in that 4th season of his (3rd as starter). Three of his first five games featured 100+ QB Ratings with 27, 38 and 34 points scored. He also had two bad games sandwiched in there, but in total we're talking about a 28 point per game average and a 100.0 QB Rating. I keep trying to see from the Henne backers what realistic expectations they have for when they know to yank the guy. Obviously 30 games hasn't been enough, so what will be? 35 games? 40 games? Or will people just keep believing in him until he finally puts together a good string of 10 games in between the 50th and 60th games of his career?
They may have liked Gabbert, but not enough to trade up for him. That's where I was with Gabbert. I saw some potential, but not enough to warrant trading up. So, there was nothing "not true" about my statement about what the team wanted and concluded. The fact that Parcells said anything about Henne means nothing to me. I don't count him among the good QB evaluators. The reports that team mates were overjoyed (if true) would concern me. I don't see him as a great leader. Even with that concern, among my concerns about his overall talent level, I don't see any clearly better options available. I see Henne as a mid 80's rated QB given an average OC. The only guy who I see out there likely to better that is Palmer, and he comes with a serious injury concern. Orton was a bit better than that, but had the benefit of great OC. I don't believe he would have been any better than Henne was last year with Henning as his OC.
The only difference I see in how Sanchez and Henne played is the level of support Sanchez had from the players (not complementary), system and OC. I have no doubt that if you switched those players the records and production would be similarly switched. In fact, even though I believe that Sanchez has higher potential, I think it's likely that Henne would have been even even more productive than Henne in that situation. And I would have been all for drafting a Rivers if there was a similar talent available. However, reaching for a QB would be foolish. It's not about drafting any QB. It's about drafting the right QB.
Points understood. My point about Gabbert and why they didn't get him stems in good part from the fact that we didn't have this year's 2nd rd pick to offer as Jax did. This year's 2nd trumps next year's, as coaches and management obvioulsly want to win now. You're right in that we didn't pull the trigger on Gabbert, but would they have if their 2nd rd pick was available for trade? Who knows, I would think very possibly yes. But as to Locker and Ponder- unfortunately we'll probably never know for sure, but my personal belief is that if either were available they would have been taken in lieu of Pouncy. As to Parcells, I'm not as down on him as you are as a QB evaluator. He did pretty well with Phil Simms and Drew Bledsoe, granted he walked into Bledsoe. I do care what Parcells has to say about Henne, and he apparently was not a big fan. I'd very much like to hear specifics as to why. Conversely, I think that Parcells screwed the pooch when it comes to John Beck- he nearly destroyed his confidence and changing his throwing motion was a big mistake imo. I think that Beck will win a starting job this year and open some eyes in the process. It's simple: Henne will either put up or shut up this year. But as to the draft, there's not that much to be gleaned as per henne in the Dolphins not drafting a QB at #12. Gabbert, Locker and Ponder were gone. If they were options at the 12 slot that would tell me a whole lot more. Drafting Pouncy and not a QB in the 1st round was hardly a vote of confidence imo. I'm on the record as to being for adding Palmer, Bulger or Orton at the right price. I really wouldn't mind seeing Bulger picked up, but ideally it would be Palmer. Henne now has a much more solidified OL to work with as per the draft and players coming back from injury. He has a running back in Daniel Thomas. He has Brandon Marshall primed to go, knife wound notwithstanding. He has Bess coming off of a breakout year. He has an underrated Anthony Fasano and a new toy in Charles Clay. And to my early delight, he has a new deep threat with a lot of promise in Edmond Gates. So again, for Henne, it's time to put up or shut up. I think that he can do it, but more importantly I hope that he actually does it.
Peyton is an exception, but if you think the Pats or Steelers go to and win ANY of those Super Bowls without a kick butt defense, you are crazy. It takes more than one player to go to and win a SB, even if you got a great QB.
agenda?...lol...not sure how to take that..lol. Calm down with the drama..Read the post again, I was just making a theory that we might have a real weakness there that could affect some important stats and outcomes.. Overall as an offensive unit, we are below average in speed..If your trying to tell me that's not a weakness on this football team, I think thats ludicrous...I'am just pointing it out.. Ronnie and Ricky were really ineffective last year, you know that.. Marshall admittedly was not his physical self in that dept..coming off 2 offseason hip surgeries, and playing at a higher weight, will do that to you ya know. Bess..really..he ain't running anything vertical, and if he does, he's covered by 1 man. Fasano, There are many folks that want a seam busting tight end, including yourself I believe. Our scat back cobbs, has a belly..lol Just makin an observation, not sure where you get agenda from but its disrespectful.
Most def. Henne has to improve in some areas, but Lets talk about our weaknesses as a TEAM, shall we.. Drpped int's..absolutely led the league.. Missed tackles in the secondary..couple our players in the bottom third in this dept.. Special teams..only 1 team stands from us being the worst in the league. Running game...piss poor.. No speed from our skillset players.. Bad, offensive, coordinator. Dropped passes..bottom third in the league. Poor play from our interior line..sometimes really poor.. Am I missing anything, anyone wanna debate those weakesses.. All that I'am sayin is, did Henne, a 2nd year starter, really get a fair, balanced football team to play with.? P.s..we haven't even got to free agency, and people are jumpin off..
The QB play was a byproduct of many of the things DJ mentioned, more than it was a lack of talent of said QB.
I actually edited my post just for ya'll, before you commented...We know what he needs to do to improve on, and it has been talked about a lot..what isn't, is how these specific weaknesses can affect outcome of games.
That's not what his list was about. His list is about weaknesses of the team and Henne is one of them.
That's the great part about being a fan. You can make up garbage and present it as a an opinion w/o anyone being able to say you're wrong. Personally, I've given up on arguing w/ anyone who cant provide a single fact to buttress their opinon. Much better things to do w/ my time, frankly.
Who cares if we cant run the ball or stretch the field, or if our OL and WR corps are beset by injury, we should still go up and down the field and finish 11-5, right? Oh wait...
Some of us understand that football is a TEAM SPORT and that dumbing it down to indict this or that player is most likely born out of ignorance. Many of us dont get it, and that's fine too. But I seriously doubt anyone is checking Witten/Fasano/Lewis' combine 40 times when accessing whether or not they are an effective seam buster. Might as well check the 225 bench #s to see who can play NT effectively. Might as well admit we have no clue, basically. Marshall is a top tier WR, but like any WR he is DEPENDENT on others to create opportunities. He is best suited catching short intermediate passes and creating after the catch. Same as Bess. Same as Fasano. And Moore. And Wallace. And Hartline. Teams caught on to this and played our offense accordingly, easy to do since we had no running game and no deep threat. But go ahead, keep blaming the QB. We didn't draft one, so maybe you're wrong. But we did draft speed at WR/TE, a new RB, and help on the the interior OL. Apparently you're smarter than Jeff Ireland. I would beg to differ. No one is trying to make Henne look "good". But there are plenty of people looking to scapegoat him. Plenty of people claiming he's the root of a much bigger problem, that Mallett, or Ponder, or Newton, could fix things. I'm just glad you guys don't get to make our picks. WADR of course.
So now Roethlisberger had nothing to do with the Steelers going to those Super Bowls? He was just there for the ride? You're saying they get to those three Super Bowls with Byron Leftwich under center?
We went from 4th in rushing yards and 10th in ypa in 2009, to 21st in yards and 30th in ypa in 2010. You call that falling off a little bit?
And the folks who want to disregard the lack of team speed on offense and the decline in the running game and make Henne the primary culprit for our offensive woes, have no agenda? I suppose those folks are all being objective and the Henne supporters are irrational?
"Jacksonville looked at who was dropping in Thursday's NFL draft and got excited. Even with the 13th-rated quarterback in the league last year, it traded up to get Missouri's Blaine Gabbert with 10th pick overall. The Dolphins didn't do that. And maybe they're right. Maybe Gabbert isn't Mr. Right. A lot of other teams needing quarterbacks passed on him without even having to trade up. Arizona. Cleveland. San Francisco. Washington. But another first round passed Thursday and the Dolphins didn't draft a quarterback again. They loved University of Washington quarterback Jake Locker. But Tennessee got him at the eighth overall pick. They liked Florida State quarterback Christian Ponder. But Minnesota took him with the 12th pick. What they did was take Florida center Mike Pouncey with the 15th pick. A solid player. A needed position. "A safe pick,'' Dolphins General Manager Jeff Ireland said. No one has accused this regime of draft boldness. This is even more conservative than usual. The last center picked higher than Pouncey was Steve Everitt by Cleveland in 1993. He was 14th overall. These Dolphins like to run the ball. They like to draft big, strong players - perferrably linemen. They also kick a lot of field goals as a consequence of that. At some point touchdowns win games, not field goals, and so we'll wait to see what Ireland has up his free-agent sleeve at quarterback before wondering ifChad Henne is the sole hope again. Jacksonville was bold Thursday. It drafted Gabbert after trading its first-round pick, the 16th overall, and second-round pick to Washington. That was interesting on both ends of the deal. Jacksonville has a decent, if aging, quarterback in 33-year-old David Garrard. He had a 90.8 rating last year. He threw 25 touchdowns and 13 interceptions. All that ranked him 13th to Henne's 26th. So what team made the bold move for a quarterback? But don't get carried away. Washington needs a quarterback, too. It passed on Gabbert (as well as Ponder) in making the trade. So it's a step too far to criticize the Dolphins for this without seeing they had a lot of company. Ireland didn't even have a second-round pick to trade, so it's a bit unfair to think he could have outbid Jacksonville. Unless he really fell in love. http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...-jeff-ireland-henne-missouri-s-blaine-gabbert Bill Parcells reportedly "disappointed" in Chad Henne Posted by NBC Sports on September 10, 2010, 7:31 PM EDT A training camp that started sunny in Miami has given way to an increasing number of dark clouds over the Dolphins franchise. Add this comment from NFL.com’s Vic Carucci to the mix: “I will say, for whatever weight this carries, that Bill Parcells is very disappointed in [Chad Henne],” Carucci said on WEEI on Friday. “But that’s not what made Bill resign his position or anything.” Unfortunately, the show’s hosts cut Carucci off with jokes before the listeners could learn more, but the point was made. Carucci is tight with Parcells, and you can be sure those concerns extend throughout the upper brass of the organization. There have been other red flags for Miami over the last month. Parcells abruptly left. Much-hyped rookie linebacker Koa Misi lost his starting job. Cornerback Sean Smith lost his job to Jason Allen. The offensive line is unsettled. None of these issues are backbreakers; it’s only the preseason. But they combine to make a team that should be on the rise enter the season with a lot of bad vibes. Henne’s development is the key. He slogged through an inconsistent preseason and training camp, dimming some of my optimism that the Dolphins were going to be a playoff team this year. I still think Henne can be a very good NFL starter. But Carucci’s statements make you wonder whether we’re going to hear more columns touting Chad Pennington for the starting job if the Dolphins start slowly. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...rcells-reportedly-disappointed-in-chad-henne/ After having read your last few posts, it's difficult to tell if you're just having a bad day, maybe you're on the rag, or perhaps, and most likely, you're just an overall douche bag.
Maybe in the long run, Moore and Wallace will become good NFL WRs, but last season when Hartline went on IR and Marshall was hobbled, I sure was wishing our 4th and 5th WRs were Camarillo and Ginn.
I had no problem with the Curtis signing- I wish that he had struck around longer, he looked solid a solid WR and pretty darned fast a couple of years ago when I watched him play for the Eagles: Pre-draft measurablesCurtis ran a hand-timed 40 yard dash of 4.21 but a 4.35 at the NFL Combine; at the Combine, he scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points on the Wonderlic intelligence test. This is tied for the highest verified score among active players (Ryan Fitzpatrick and Benjamin Watson also scored 48). The only two players that scored higher on the Wonderlic Test were Pat McInally with a perfect 50 and Mike Mamula with a 49.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Curtis I would guess that his testicular cancer had something to due with his being waived, I'm not sure.
In your other post you said "poor QB play". So do you think Henne is inherently lacking in physical talent and/or mental makeup to the point that he'll never be anything more than he is now, or do you feel the "poor" QB play was a due to his still developing and/or being effected by shortcomings in other areas of the offense, such as some that DJ listed?
He is over the cancer as far as I know. The treated him in whatever way necessary and he is trying to get back to the level of a couple years ago before the cancer happened. I think he was signed as a temporary band aid, just to get us through a few games when we were beaten up depth wise at WR due to injuries.
My point of view on this is, if Parcells let this leak, there was a method to his madness. Unless we have a direct quote from him, I'm not going to be even 50% sure he ever said it and if he did say it to Carruci or any of his other media mouthpieces, it was for a reason. He may have felt that letting such a thing leak out, would light a fire under Henne. Some players need a pat on the back to perform their best, and some need a kick in arse, or whatever. Parcells is a master at mental manipulation. He used to say things about Phil Simms early in his career too. Even benched him for a while and started Scott Brunner, for gawd sake. He had Phil so mixed up on the signals he was sending the poor guy didn't know whether to sh!t or wind his watch half the time. Bill felt he needed to be tougher mentally and this was his way to go about it. Sort of like they do in boot camp, tear a man down then build him back up. Maybe from his perspective, he thought Henne needed some tough love and his little leak to the media was his way to go about it. After Simms regained the starting job he reeled off a nice string of very solid seasons, and was the ideal QB for the kind of offense the Giants ran then, which isn't far removed, like or hate it, from what Tony wants from our offense these days.
I hear you MrC. My only fear is, this was said prior to LAST year. So, it didn't serve as much as a kick in the pants as hoped.
