It seems that some are not sold on Hartline, and would like an upgrade. He did not do much in the first 5 weeks of last season. Then, in 7 games, weeks 6-12, he played very well, catching 32 of 42 passes from Henne for 482 yards. He was our best player on O during that time span before getting injured. For the year, he was best 10-19 yards, catching 15 of 23, and over the middle between 0-9 yards, catching 14 of 16. Going deep, 20+ yards, was not good catching only 3 of 14. Overall, I thought he really came on before getting hurt, and was clicking with Henne. I look forward to seeing him doing the same for a full season. I believe he can be a star.
Iam just not sold on him yet, there is something strange with his balance..I think hes tough, but iam not sure explosive enough to be a dominating #2...I look forward to seeing if he took his craft seriously this offseason.
I don't like him as our #2 WR because he doesn't quite keep the safeties on their toes and doesn't fully take advantage of being single team which is most of the time. I want us to get a guy who can attract some attention from opposing team, make them regret it when they decide to single team him, and spread out the field while being a deep threat. Hartline isn't going to run pass anybody
Surely! But if the team wants someone to take that spot away it won't be THAT hard to find one. I'm not trying to knock him down either. I just think that if he were to be the 3rd or 4th Wr, it would mean that the Wr core as a whole might just be scary!
He plays fearless and wreckless all at once. With his frame, I can't beleive he will be able to continue to take the shots he has taken so far in his career. He is sneaky fast though and using the eyeball test, seems to have pretty good hands overall. He is probably our fastest receiver, which tells you a lot about our receiving corps. He probably is a third receiver on most teams, but he has an odd skillset for us. Again, probably our fastest wideout, but less reliable than Bess and less talented overall than Marshall (but with better hands). To be honest, all three of them have about 2/3's of what we need in a complete receiver, yet each 2/3's is a different combo for each.
I think he can be improved on, just the improvement is not a huge priority. Kind of like Langford can be improved on, however he is pretty good at his job. Looking at the offense, the offense is more held back by Henne than it is by Hartline. In fact if Henne was a good quarterback I do believe that Hartline would have had over 1,000 yards last season. In fact I believe all three wide receivers would have had a 1,000 yard season with decent quarterbacking. I do agree that it would be easier to upgrade Hartline than Henne, however I also think that is like putting new expensive rims on a Hyundai. Unless Henne dramatically improves.
I am beginning to doubt that Henne has a turbo within him. The combination of watching him play and reading CK's statistical analysis, the guy really deserves the term, "Captain Checkdown." The saddest part of it though is that his soft throw accuracy is decent at best. He is a quarterback with a strong arm who is best at throwing it short ranged, which doesn't seem to be great. Can this leopard change it's spots? One area I disagree with CK is that he doesn't believe a leopard can change his spots and I believe that humans are not leopards and are better than dogs (such as in the case of Paslov's dog) and other animals. I do think the light can come on for Henne, however I am just beginning to doubt it.
In the first four games, Hartline caught only 11 of 23 passes with 3 drops. Horrible, and looked like yet another mistake at WR we made. Then, over the next 7 games before injury, the light went on. He was consistently VG in all those games. He caught 4 or 5 balls for over 50 yards in each one. Catching 32 of 42 for 482 yards, over that time, is great and means he was most definitely clicking with Henne. He also picked up that "chunk yardage" in every game, 1 for 19, 3 for 24, 1 for 26, 1 for 34, 1 for 54, and only had 1 drop. It was not just showing flashes, it was consistent production over 7 games. Project that out, and he is a 1,000 yard WR. For the year, he averaged 14.3 per catch and 5 YAC, better than Marshall or Bess on both. If those numbers hold up, I don't know what more we could be looking for in a #2 WR.
People may say Hartline is a #2 but is he really? Do number 2 wide receivers go 10 straight games without a touchdown like he did last season? Do number 2 wide receivers average 2 touchdowns a season? Sorry but Hartline may be "number 2" on this team but he is NOT a #2 wide receiver
Based on that, we wasted 2 #2 picks on Marshall, who had 3 TDs in more games. I guess we gotta replace Marshall at #1 before getting to Hartline at #2.
Yes, because Kurt Warner in Arizona is so easy to find. For a supposed running team, people really say dumb things about what they want the QB to do.
I disagree, IMO if Henne was a better run blocker, we wouldnt have ranked near the bottom of the league in YPC . But instead of hitting someone, Henne hands the ball off and just stands there like a QB. WTF .
Yeah, Marshall had over 1,000 yards, missing 3 games, Bess had 820, and Hartline had 615, missing 5 games.
Fair enough. I can respect that opinion. (although the turbo was meant for Hartline. lol) I'm just curious if Chad truly is Captain Checkdown, or if it only "seems" that way b/c our running backs offer little excitement out of the backfield. Would we be noticing these checkdowns if they routinely turned into bigger gains? I still don't know what to make of the fact that Henne completed a greater percentage of his passes to his WRs than any of the other young QBs. Heck, Freeman completed half of his passes to his backs and TEs...... and Sanchez and Flacco weren't too far behind. How does that factor into our interpretation of Henne's "checkdown" label? I'm also curious if the checkdowns aren't higher due to what GMJohnson referred to----- max protect being called thanks to an injury riddled Olne (one that allowed 16 sacks over the last 5 games even with max protect) where you have only 3 <slow> receivers (including 6 practice squad guys) going out into a 7 man coverage that knows we have a conservative coach & pose little threat on the ground..... along with a QB who knows he has a bum knee and might be acting cautiously to protect it. If I had to think of reasons why someone would check down more often than normal, I'm inclined to believe the above would rate highly. I'm not saying that's the reason why, but I do feel it's at least coincidental. It was so painful watching Henne in our offense and then seeing guys like Flacco, Freeman, and Sanchez in theirs. It felt like I was watching a beginner's music class where all the students were given Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, except one kid............. who was given a sheet of Mozart. I just want to see the guy for one freakin year in an offensive situation that allows HIM to play Twinkle Twinkle more often, too........ and if he still has trouble with it, I'll gladly fail him. The potential he's flashed still has me leaning towards "pass" though.
That's a very narrow sighted ignorant look at this situation Marshall has proved himself as one of the best in the NFL HARTLINE HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING....YET
LMAO at "Captain Checkdown". Perhaps if you understood the design of the offense or bothered to do some basic fact finding, you wouldn't say such silly things. Despite injury, our top 3 receivers, in both targets and completions, are our top 3 WRs, Marshall, Hartline & Bess. The checkdown recipients, the backs, rank 5th-7th, behind Fasano who is 4th. Ronnie Brown caught 33 passes, Ricky caught 19, Cobbs and Polite caught 12 and 8 respectively, none of the 4 missed a game all year. Take a wild guess at how many NFL teams had 3 WRs as their top 3 receivers in targets and/or completions? Certainly not the Jets, they're leading receiver was Dustin Keller with 55, L.T. caught as many passes (52), as Ronnie & Ricky combined. Despite having 3 vertical threats, Sanchez' YPA were actually lower than Henne's. Ditto for Matt Ryan, his 2nd leading receiver was Tony Gonzalez w/ 70, 3rd was (3rd down back) Jason Snelling w/ 44, his YPA is lower than Henne's as well. Flacco had a higher YPA than Henne, despite "checking down" to Ray Rice 63 times, w/ another 35 completions to McGahee and McClain. Josh Freeman's (higher YPA also) top target was TE Kellen Winslow w/ 66, ranking 3rd was Cadillac Williams, who caught 46 passes despite losing his starter's role in the 2nd half of the year. Sam Bradford's top receiver was Amendola, who averaged 8.1 YPC on his 85 receptions, 3rd was Steven Jackson w/ 46, and his YPA was an abysmal 6.0. No one will accuse Jay Cutler or Martz of being proponents of the check down, and yet Cutler completed 120 passes to backs and TEs, including 51 to RB Matt Forte (tied for 1st) and 41 to Greg Olsen (4th), both caught more balls than #1 WR Hester (40). Hernandez, Gronkowski & Woodhead were 3-4-5 in New England w/ 121 receptions and 17 TDs, more than Miami's entire team. Yep, only two QBs in the entire NFL had WRs as their top 3 receivers in targets and/or completions. Chad Henne & Aaron Rodgers, and its safe to say that injuries to Grant and Finley had a lot to do with that. So let's go ahead and retire the "Captain Checkdown", shall we? Not only was Henne not checking down much, he was not checking down ENOUGH. We had no threats in the check down area, we had no threats in the deep area, especially in the deep middle. Our passing offense was restricted to a small area between 5-20 yds down field, and most teams defended us accordingly. The offense was pigeonholed by both play calling and by personnel, no speed made it hard to threaten deep, and the constant max-pros made backs leaking out for check downs difficult as well. Even when Ronnie and Ricky did catch a short pass, they weren't going to do anything with it, defenses will live with that all day, and continue to focus on Bess and Marshall, our only legitimate threats in the passing game. If we get some backs who can bring some speed and elusiveness in space, and an OC who is willing to unleash them, then the check down can be a valuable weapon in the offense. Henne will have a security blanket to go to, instead of ducking his head and plodding forward like a baffoon. The WRs could have more space to work with if the LBs and CBs have to defend the flat area consistently. The OC can call deeper, more intricate pass patterns for the WRs if he knows he has an outlet back to go to just in case. The more you send 4 and 5 receivers into the pattern, the more you invite the blitz, and Henne has shown he can handle the blitz better than he can handle softer/shell type coverages. Of course you need an OL who you trust to protect the QB to do these things, but Jake and Carey are a solid pair of Ts and, and the interior 3 should be bale to handle 2 guys on their own.
Please stop with all the logic, GM; you're making too much sense. lol For the same reason that teams have a greater difficulty moving the ball inside the 10 yard line is the same reason it's difficult for us to do anything no matter where we have it. Our lack of: speed, vertical ability, playmakers, and ground game allow a defense to play us inside a 20 yard box. Rivers completed 50.7% of his passes with a 3.9 avg inside the redzone compared to 68% and 9.45 avg outside it. Tolbert averaged 4.4 YPC outside of the redzone; inside the 30 yard box it dropped to 2.7. I know it's not entirely the same thing, but it's still indicative of the fact that things get tougher on offenses when defenses can focus on a smaller area of the field.
Let's be honest, Hartline looked exceptional after the catch last year. He also got on top of the defense a number of times...Henne just couldn't hit a wide open receiver streaking down field. At the very least Hartline is a very, very solid number two. We just need a legitimate rac guy (Randal Cobb type) and a legitimate deep threat (Edmund Gates type). By the way, as much as we all hated Ginn's drops, he should never have been traded...he should have spent the next handful of years running nothing by go's and comebacks....routes he doesn't really get his on...so he would likely catch the ball...plus...the defense would have had to respect that. But again, are we even having this conversation if Henne would have hit him when he was wide open? I don't think so. Hell, let's be honest, better play out of Henne and the safeties would have had to take a number of steps back...helping the running game...and we probably would have made noise in the playoffs. I hate to keep coming back to it, but Henne missed so many opportunities last year....the throw down the right sideline in the Cleveland game being the one I have the hardest time not dryheaving after thinking about.
Is this when he fumbled against Pitt?..... or are you referring to all 1 of the TDs he scored b/c he broke so many big plays, ran over defenders, or juked them out of their shoes? Maybe I was in the restroom and missed them. lol. If Hartline is exceptional after the catch, then does that mean Andre Johnson is supercalifragilisticexpialidociously exceptional to the 1 millionth degree after the catch? If "exceptional" is now the new mediocre, then what do we call the new exceptional? The only place Hart is a very, very solid #2 is in my toilet bowl after eating a lot of fiber. Just sayin. And yes, we would be having this discussion if Henne hit Hart that time he was running wide open. Henne missing Hart is unrelated to Hart being mediocre as a #2. If Hart had any ability to attack the ball downfield and make adjustments when it's in the air <like most talented receivers do>, then some of Henne's "poor throws" wouldn't have looked so poor. Did you watch any other football during the year outside of Miami? How many dry heaves would you have had when Atlanta played the Saints, where both Brees and Ryan combined for something like 9 missed passes downfield with ZERO completions? Did you see any of the numerous games where receivers actually made plays on badly thrown passes rather than allowing the DB make the play on it?
Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree. I feel as though Hartline is just scratching the surface. I feel as though, had Henne showed even average accuracy on his deepballs, we would not be having this conversation. I also feel Hartline gets a bum rap on his run after the catch skills...for what reason I don't know...or maybe I do. Just about every big play last year that was either made or could have been made by a wide receiver (if Henne wasn't so awful) was or would have been made by Hartline. That's my take. I think he has a bum rap. We'll know for sure when a decent quarterback is throwing the passes.
Absolutely agree. Spacing is critical in the passing game, always has been. If you can make the defense defend the whole field, the windows will open up and you can attack at your leisure. The Chargers are an excellent example, Norv Turner does an excellent job w/ that offense. They ATTACK, relentlessly. Three verticals with Gates running an option route. What are you going to do w/ that? If you play Cover 2 man then Gates is 1 on 1 w/ a LB = Fail. If you go Cover 3, the SS can hyelp out on Gates but now you're single high and Rivers will find the CB who'd not getting help and throw it deep = Fail. Cover 4 is your only real option and once Turner can force teams into that coverage, he can start jabbing them to death with shorter routes, the run game, play action, check downs, and if the defense gets too close, its over the top w/ Vincent Jackson again. Poetry. Of course, outside of a flea flicker or the weekly play action to Hartline, Henning never attempted to establish a vertical threat. We never dictated to the defense what they were going to do, they dictated to us. We couldn't run on anybody, we couldn't throw deep, couldn't take a short pass for a long gain, no draw game or screen game to slow down the pass rush, just a bunch of highly predictable intermediate routes (dig, shallow cross, curl, option) that teams had memorized by Week 6. Every once in a while we'd see a post or a corner route, but there was never any concerted effort to attack the defense, and that's what I'm hoping will change in 2011. Henne has the arm to throw 3 verticalss all game, it could be a staple of our offense IMO. 3 Verts with Bess wreaking havoc underneath in the Gates role? Sounds good to me. A constant deep threat & a solid running game is definitely a recipe for success. We're a few pieces away, and we need a coaching staff that is more concerned with how to score points than how to make a first down.
To you that was because of everyone but Henne. What I saw was an offense that was handicapped by Chad Henne as well. Chad Henne was not very accurate beyond 5-20 yards. The defense knew how to get Chad Henne to play towards them because they know he couldn't fit it into a tight window. Not only that, they knew he wouldn't even try to fit in a tight window. CK has shown that was something he didn't do in college as well. I have always found it interesting that Dan Henning is a horrible idiot offensive coordinator, the one year he has Chad Henne as his starting quarterback.
scratching the surface of what? the water?..... while he's drowning below it? lol. <yes, that's a slight exaggeration>. He's not scratching the surface of anything. The guy is nearly maxed out ceiling wise. If Hart had the ability to CONSISTENTLY get open vertically, had the speed to run under passes, the tracking ability to make more plays, the physicality & ups to win the jump ball, and the instincts to attack the ball or come back to it with a vengeance, then Henne would seem to have greater accuracy on his deepball. You do understand that deep passes aren't meant to be pinpoint accurate passes like 5 yard outs right? You realize that as much responsibility falls on the receiver's ability to make plays once it's in air on deep passes as there is on the QB throwing it? Hartline does anything BUT make a QB's job easy when it comes to vertical passing. 1 play running wide open against a rookie doesn't all of a sudden make him some elite deep receiver. He's an NFL receiver; he should be able to beat coverage from time to time, but that doesn't make him a Mike Wallace.
Yeah, we were dominating the Steelers until Hartline showed off his "exceptional" after the catch skills. [video=youtube;xN-u0jn4z2M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN-u0jn4z2M[/video] Did you dry heave on that one as well? Or is it only Henne's mistakes that upset your stomach?
If Hartline ran a 4.3 he would be the guy we're missing IMO. Then his mix of route running ability and "speed" would be dangerous, no. I still think he's better suited for the slot on 1st and 2nd down b/c he could threaten the intermediate to deep middle and deep outs in ways that Bess simply can't (which might create more space for Brandon, especially being on the same side of the field). Thoughts?
