I am not totally sure what you mean by this, you don't think Jordan could have won titles without Pippen?
It's all speculation at this point. One thing we do know, he didn't win anything in the 7 seasons without Pippen.
Where are you getting seven seasons from? Pippen entered the league in Jordon's 4th season in the league and then he retired after they won their 6th title only to come back with the Wizards four years later for just two years when he was just a shell of himself. I count five.
I'm not sure of the total number of years nor do I feel like looking this up. But still the fact remains the same MJ needed Pippen or someone of his caliber. W/O him or someone of his caliber to team up and partner with I doubt he ever wins a tittle. And he was the best Ever. So holding Lebron to this unattainable goal is insane. Some people look at Lebron teaming up with Wade as some sort of cop out. I don't. It's still a team sport and takes a team effort to win Championships. Facts are that no single player in the history of the game has ever been able to win a championship by himself. He recognizes this and has moved on to greener pastures.
That's what all of this is. Sour grapes. Just a bunch of bitter fan bases mad because LeBron James didn't choose to suit up next year for their team. This is why the Heat went from not being talked about to being the most hated franchise in all of sports overnight. The players love it I bet. I know I do. It's going to be fun pissing people off even more once we start to play....
Since I am not going to count his two years in Washington when he was 38 and not in the shape of the Jordon in his prime, so no he did not win in his first three years in the league. But I don't know how this has anything to do with our discussion if Jordon could have won without Pippen during his prime and best years.
I don't see what reality you're talking about. You're simply stating an opinion about what Jordan would have done. The only reality that did occur is that Jordan never won without Pippen. For that matter no superstar ever won it alone. All of those players that are called great champions all did it with help. Everyone I can think had at least one other all-star on their team and nobody is saying that their legacies are diminshed. IMO this particular criticism (legacy being diminished) that is being leveled against James has already been proven wrong by history. I also disagree that it will be easy against the Lakers. They are a great team that has two all-stars in Kobe and Gasol and they have a guy in Odom who is capable of playing like a top 10 player in inconsistent bursts. Add in a healthy Bynum and they'll be tough against anyone.
Well since Pippen without Jordan almost took the Bulls to the finals in 1994, and he would have if it wasn't for a bad call by Hue Hollins in game seven against the Knicks, I don't think it's inconceivable or insane at all to think if Pippen could have almost taken a Jordan-less Bulls to the finals Jordan could have taken a Pippen-less Bulls team to a title. And even then if he did, and I think he would have, I don't think he would be able to do it without key help from the other Bulls. Uhm, when did I ever say or even suggested that?
Great, another person putting words in my mouth. Just because I think Jordan could have won a title without Pippen by no means do I think Jordan would have been able to win by HIMSELF. There were some very good Bulls players during that dynasty run besides Jordan and Pippen.
That wasn't said to contradict anything you had said. It was me merely completing a train of thought.
I agree having another all-star Like Horace Grant was helpful as well along with many other very good players. So are you saying that Jordan's legacy was diminished because he only won with another HOF player other very good players?
Lebron almost made it to the finals without another superstar, just like Jordan in '94. If he were to then go on and win six titles with another superstar like Jordan did, why would his legacy be any different than Jordan's?
Why would it be diminished? Unless one thinks a player can win titles with bad players, which I have never implied. BTW, is this normally how you go about debates? By putting words in peoples mouths and implying thoughts? Because it's quite annoying. Do you mean Pippen? And I never said I thought Lebron couldn't win a title with Cleveland, I think in due time he would have as soon as he got better players -and I think he eventually would have - like Jordan did in Chicago. And sorry, but if he goes and wins six titles with Miami, it won't be the same as Jordan's six with Chicago, first off to match that he would need to win six in seven years and if you think about it further the Bulls won six straight titles in a row when Jordan began the season with the Bulls, good luck on matching that feat. And that is no shot at Lebron.
My Spurs weren't in the discussion as a team for any of these FA's and I don't like James at all nor his televised stunt. What's your point?
I think the point about the tarnished legend also comes down to the go-to-guy for the last shot of the game. Before Bron was a Heat most people on these boards were saying it would still be Wade. If Wade is the guy hitting the Jordan-esque shots (over Ehlo or the push-off in Utah) shots - then he is going to be the one getting the credit. Not LeBron. No one argues that Pippen was the leader of those teams because he wasn't the guy who made the clutch plays. If that becomes LeBron, then his legacy may survive, if the iconic shots and plays come from Wade, then, yes, Bron's legacy will not be that of the greatest. (Also find it hard to believe that LeBron suddenly doesn't want to be Jordan - then why did he have his OWN special and not announce with Wade and Bosh? Why does he constantly talk about being the greatest and refer to himself as the Chosen One and the King. He has repeatedly said he wants to be one of the greatest ever and should, therefor, be judged against those standards.)
This part of history hasn't been written yet. For all we know he will go on to win several Championships and make the game winning shot in all of them. Honestly to be talking of a mans legend being ruined when he is just entering the prime of his career and playing on a championship caliber team is redonkulous.
I don't think anyone has said it's ruined, if they are they are mistaken, but no one with an unbiased mind can't say it hasn't taken a big hit after the manner he handled his free agent signing and not to mention coming off a horrendous game five against the Celtics where it look like he rather be anywhere that night but the basketball court.
Ruined, tarnished however people want to put it his Legacy is still being written. Who knows how it will turn out? As a Miami Fan I am still partial to Wade. Its his house and he's the man. Is that true though? Who the hell knows. For all we know Lebron outplays Wade and he becomes the Teams star.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I am asking questions b/c I don't understand what you're trying to say. My understanding was that you believed that LBJ's potential legacy would somehow be diminished if he won in Miami. I disagree. I don't think he would have ever won in Cleveland b/c all of the superstars that have won did it with other superstars on the team. I think this off season made it pretty obvious that Cleveland would have a hard time bringing in another superstar. If LBJ didn't know that before the off season began he clearly figured it out pretty quickly. And even if he did, by some chance, win one then it would have been one at most. On the other hand, I think his odds of winning one in Miami are pretty good. In fact, I believe that his odds of winning several (at least 3) in Miami are better than his odds of winning one in Cleveland. So IMO 3+ rings will always trump 1 (at most) rings regardless of your supporting cast.
I would agree that his play in game 5 tarnished his legend but I don't agree that the FA signing will have any long term effect outside of Cleveland. I don't think it will hurt his legacy anymore than leaving Indy hurt Elway's. If he ends up winning several rings than this off season will be an insignificant footnote for most everybody. Actually, it might be an insignificant footnote regardless unless Cleveland goes on to become a champion without him.
WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ALL THAT? READ MY SIG. That is what Riley told Lebron. Riley sold him on being part of the second Dynasty in the history of the NBA. he bought it. THAT is what he wants. This "being the man" crap is what losers like Miller, Barkley and Webber harped about on decision night.
The standard to ultimate greatness in the NBA is Michael Jordan, when a player wants to reach the level Jordan reached people are going to compare how he reached that greatness, and I am not saying it's fair and I honestly don't know if it is. But it is what it is. That being said the when Lebron wins championships in Miami - and in my opinion he will and probably more than one - people will take into account on how he went about accomplishing this feat. Signing with a team with already a sure stud of a player is one thing, but to throw in a player of Bosh's talents I think a lot of folks, fans and media alike, or not going to look favorably on this. Jordan was one of the greatest competitors of our time to the point that he was always looking to challenge it almost seemed the challenge was more important than the titles itself. I honestly don't know how joining forces with two premier players like Wade and Bosh can be viewed as a great challenge. And I think this is where it will hurt Lebron. Well I don't know if Elway really ever left Indy since he was never really ever there. Either way I think you are vastly underestimating how much of a bad taste in the manner Lebron left Cleveland for Miami it left to the average sports fan, I am guessing you live in south Florida cause it looks quite ugly outside of it.
There is no way you can compare LeBron to Jordan. He's not even number one in most people's eyes outside of Miami. At this point Kobe is number one. When Jordan played, there wasnt any debate. And what's fascinating is he came right after Bird and Magic who were the two greatest just before him. He took the best qualities of those two greats and combined it into the legend that he became. Anyone that saw a young Jordan take on a Bird lead championship Celtics team by himself virtually in the playoffs can attest to his greatness. The thing that seperates the two at this stage of their careers is Jordan was clutch, Jordan was money, Jordan sought out the last second shot and buried it. LeBron doesnt have Jordan's greed for greatness. Maybe it will change but I think Wade will be the guy making the laast second shots. Wade has the hunger more than LeBron IMO.
Personally, I have always believed that Wade was better than Lebron b/c Wade had that killer instinct. Lebron had more physical talent but IMO Wade was more about winning. That was the reason I never thought Lebron would leave Cleveland. Staying in Cleveland would have been the easy route, but he probably would never have won and almost certainly wouldn't win multiple times. My opinion of him has gone up b/c he made the choice that was about winning and he did it despite knowing that he would be criticized and he also gave up millions of dollars. I don't know if he'll ever be considered on Jordan's level, but to have any chance of approaching that he's going to have to win multiple championships and he's going to have to come up big in several big moments. He made the choice that gave him that best chance to make it to that level. And I think you are underestimating how forgiving and short people's memories are. Elway was hated in Indy and called a coward. He was vilified in the national media as the poster child for the spoiled athlete and the example of all that was wrong in sports. The only people who didn't hate him were in Denver. How many people think of him that way now? All most people remember is that he won a SB and is one of the greats. If ten years from now Lebron has several championships then his time in Cleveland and how he left will be nothing more than an interesting anecdote. Most of the people who will still hate him will be in Cleveland and they will be a small minority.
The owner was so mad because LeBron never even talked to him during the process. I'd feel mad too if he did that to me after I paid him millions and millions of dollars and gave him every perk imaginable. LeBron was not treated as every other player, the team hired his friends, gave him everything he asked for on top of his paycheck. Is it really classless for the owner to expect a man to man conversation or a phone call? A text message? Seems pretty reasonable. I think you're comparison of him to a stalker is out there and silly. Wade wouldn't have been treated the same way because Wade would have told Riley to his face he was leaving.....like an adult. Is it really classless to expect these guys to act like adults? The owner was also making a wise business manuever, he was rallying fans behind him so that his team wouldn't be worth 10 cents in the upcoming season, he was trying to give the fans something to root for. It was a pretty shrewd move on a business level. I probably would have handled things differently if I was Gilbert, certainly if I was LeBron but I do think the Cleveland owner has every right to feel betrayed by LeBron. After making years worth of moves personnel wise to appease LeBron, spending millions, bending over backwards to please him it isn't surprising he would expect a bit of loyalty. Its not like he was asking LeBron to stay and lose 70 games a year, Cleveland has been a contender for years now.
Sure. That is why he is the back to back MVP. Lebron does not have Jordan's greed for greatness? I would say what he did last week disproves that. this is just jealousy.
I'm not sure I'd include the word clutch when talking about a guy with no rings. What's he clutch at doing exactly? As much as I dislike him, Kobe Bryant is clutch. He's done it before.
Clutch refers to the ability to pull through in a close or tight situation, not the ability to earn rings on crappy teams. Kobe's never done the latter before.
Do people not remember that Kobe was in the lottery the year after shaq, despite having Odom and Caron, two guys who wade got into the playoffs with? then got bounced in the first round by no "D" PHX twice before the Gasol heist? And those Laker teams were much better than anything Cleveland or Miami put on the floor the last few years. Kobe is as overrated as it gets, while still being a fabulous player.
kobes not even close to be overrated. You guys can argue bron/wade is are great players without putting down other players lol
It? You mean play on a championship team? You do realize championships are a team accomplishment? What is LeBron clutch at? Dominating close games at the end of the game. The great thing about basketball is you can use stats to back up theories: http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM 82games is a great site. They also have some information, while dated (from last season), which is very relevant. Here is their information on 'game winning shots': http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm There is plenty of information out there about who is more 'clutch' and almost all of it points to LeBron being the most 'clutch' player in the NBA.
I didn't denigrate. Kobe is, and has been, a fabulous, all-world player. He is however, nowhere close to the greatest of all time. I can name ten guys at least, historically, that I would've taken before Kobe. A great player can still be overrated. Brett Favre is the perfect football example. He is no doubt great, but he is overrated by the media/fans.
