http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/ Well, there has been some chatter here on Mike Iupati being the #12, I happen to think that is a stretch and we have similar chances of drafting Iupati as we do of drafting Dez Bryant, right around 10%. The reason why is Smiley was signed to fill an immediate hole at G on the heels of the 1-15 season, two yrs later and the bleeding has stopped, Smiley is now expendable, even though his play is not terrible, and imho Parcell's/Ireland and Sparano's vision for the Phins is more of developing players over 3 yrs, that is why the Coaching staff is populated with ex Head Coaches and Coordinators, guys who understand the massive importance of teaching players how to do their jobs more efficiently. Such a philosophical committment to a teaching/develpment ethic means we should not have to over value players in the earlier rounds of the Draft, Iupati is a prime example of a Anti Sparano philosophy pick imho as there are solid NFL football reasons why Guards rarely go early in the NFL draft. So why draft Iupati at #12? Imho it is speculation based on the assumption that Sparano wants the most dominating Oline in the AFCE first, then the NFL, to me it makes more sense that we stand pat with the 4 Guard prospects we have now, than to drop our most valuable asset, the #12 pick, on yet another Guard. Gugs and Sparano already have to sort thourgh Berger, Garner, Thomas and Tsoumpas, a job which I'm sure they will love, all 4 are large, athletic and physical Offensive lineman, why add Iupati? Thoughts?
They have an obsession with finding players that fit into the system. If they do pick Iupati it's a damning take on the players available at the selection. I wouldn't be thrilled with it, but I also wouldn't be opposed to it. If we get a fourth for Smiley I suppose you do it. You can win a division on line play.
Perhaps, it also could be a testament to Sparano's Oline fetish being overly catered to: Big Jake #1 overall Jake Grove 30 million dollar contract..for a center. Vern Carey: 30 million dollar contract (or more) Justin Smiley 25 million dollar contract And taking a huge chance on Rotten Richie Incognito. To me, Iupati at #12 would be a ballless move, it's a utterly safe pick, sooner or later though, a Team absolutely needs playmakers to go along with the Hogs. I'd prefer we take a shot at Jason Pierre Paul or Earl Thomas, or even Dez Bryant just to give the team some playmaking talent. Our defense was putrid, we cannot consistently compete with a undermanned D.
Well if we had the right type of defensive line we could. We need a better pass rusher. If they go Iupati-Hughes or Iupati-Worilds I won't be opposed. I have more faith in Tyrone Culver at FS than most. Again the great value of guards is that if you can hold onto them, they have incredibly long careers. INCREDIBLY. For too long has the position been considered useless and not worthy of a high pick.
Why? It's been our bread-and-butter for two years. It's the only unit on the team that's actually establishing an identity. Throwing picks at OLB, NT, FS, or WR when you don't feel the player is the right guy won't do anything for you. I'm hoping we trade Smiley to Denver soon for Scheffler. At least then we'll have some improvement in our draft stance.
Disagree, that would be like upgrading from a Bentley to a Mybach, pouring resources into a unit while only providing prious's to every other unit is a disaster waiting to happen. Sometimes you need Grinders to go along with the Gazelles. That would make sense, though Scheffler has 2nd rd pick tag on him and we are asking for a #3 pick for Smiley.
He has a 2nd because that's where he was drafted, otherwise it would have been a match-scenario. Smiley is like an E-Class that's always in the shop. Iupati literally could end up the best guard in the league, I'm talking about a Buggati Veyron. I'd rather they hit on that first round pick and get a player that's fantastic at his position, then take a player that's going to be an epic WTF pick three years late or a guy that possibly may fit his position. If Dez Bryant is gone especially and they don't see Morgan as a SOLB then I would be more than for it. The chances of a trade down are slight.
it is our bread and butter .... and our only hole right now is the health of Grove. But, i just don't see it. We have Berger as a backup, and Garner as a 3d if needed - so we can go into this season with what we have. while i agree with the BPA that fits your scheme and mold, i disagree with any OL in this draft less a late rd project. we have 2 'special' Ss, and a very good if not 'special' WR that might be available ... and that fill a need -- so to not pull the trigger on one of those 3 would be very bad business management.
Berry won't be there so let's say it's Thomas and Bryant. We don't know exactly how they feel on Bryant, let's be honest about that and Earl Thomas isn't a guy that's a sure pick either. If it's between a safety and a guard, call me crazy but I'd rather have the Dolphins blow picks later on trying to see if say Nate Allen is their guy at FS than see them mess around on a position that honestly I don't think they know all that well. Besides I've always though that guard was about as important as safety. LT- Long LG- Iupati C- Grove RG- Incognito RT- Carey Is frightening, downright frightening to any defensive line. It hurts facing that. That kind of line can send your defensive line into a couple week malaise. Also it doesn't hurt to protect your investment at QB further than you previously have. - Add Scheffler, Iupati, and perhaps a veteran like a Torry Holt and I think you have a very good offense. It won't be New Orleans Saints like, but it will be pretty impressive.
I would think we would have interest in Pouncey as well. I mean he has played every position on the offensive line other than left tackle. That would be great for when Groves goes down with an injury.
I've never cared much about versatility in comparison to ability at your main position. Iupati you get for his LG play. I don't think much of his T ability.
Just to play devil's advocate, one man's take on Iupati: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/ppSD/protected/2010DRAFT/PlayerProfiles/Mike.Iupati.htm
I would take issue with that article. From what I've seen he moves pretty darned well for a big guy, with good lateral movement and he has a stunning hand punch and the ability to throw around DL's like rag dolls. And the the notion of him having limited upside at the pro level- I find that to be absurd. Donald Thomas and Incognito are Right Guards- that leaves Nate Garner at LG. He played well last year, but let's face it- he's a question mark. Iupati is a natural Left Guard- he could really solidify the line, and him next to Jake Long- damn. Smiley- what is it- injuries, salary? Is one of his injuries worse than reported? I don't understand exactly why he's being cut loose- not all the facts are out imo. Players I would rather have than Iupati (who will likely be there): Bryant Spiller maybe Brandon Graham Earl Thomas Players I like less than Iupati at #12 JPP Kindle Mays Dan Thomas Jerry Hughes McClain Derrick Morgan Weatherspoon Benn (I hate to say that) Gresham
Jaj, personnaly, i would fire anyone who selects a G with the #12 pick in the draft .... don't care how good he is or if its a position of neeed. now, if you want to trade down to a late 1st round and pull the trigger -- i guess i could buy it -- but still won't like it. I just think we are good enough with what we have in house -- and we absolutely must, must, must improve our defense. i want an OLB and S; and i think S brings us closer to BPA at 12 -- especially with Berry. Jim, Smiley was let go because of injuries ... this FO wants players that will be on the field - every down all season = durability. of course, they knew this when they signed him. same can be said for Grove. maybe there is more to the story, such as he is not where he needs to be physically. but i believe it was a business decision, that could be made with the acquisition of Incognito and our current G depth.
Do any of you guys remember what happened to Miami's O-line last year? Garner playing 3 positions in one game, Thomas in and out w/garner, Smiley hurt, Grove hurt. I agree that the Defense was putrid, and weapons are needed on offense. But the O-Line is the foundation that the QB, RB's, WR's work from, and if the offense works well the defense benefits. It's like having an ICBM, but no launching facility.
There may be truth to the OL issues you pointed out but if this FO goes offensive lineman with the #12 pick the whole fanbase including this site is going to go ballistic and have a riot and tear down the walls. You think the Ginn pick angered Dolphin fans
Hey you are right, the Ginn pick and his presentation was blasted. Because the fans wanted Quinn right? I'm not trying to defend the Ginn pick BTW.
no worries you might have misunderstood me. I think you made valid points with what you said about the OL and our issues last season but this team has much bigger needs at this point than an offensive lineman. Especially on the defensive side of the ball.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are saying that the fans wanted someone else (Quinn) and Miami selected Ginn so the fans freaked out. And now you are saying the fans want X and if Miami selects Y the fans will freak out? Do you think Ireland or Parcells should poll the fans and pick what the fans want so they will be happy? Or, should they pick who they think it the best player at their pick? IF who they consider the best player to choose at their pick is a Guard (I don't know that it is, just saying), should they say "oh forget that, the fans will freak out", and then choose someone else? What if they DO choose someone else to please the fans, and the guy they wanted turns out to be an elite guard and possible HoF player? Would they still have been right to go with the popular fan pleasing selection?
yeah i want the FO to poll the fans and whoever gets the most votes is the pick It doesnt matter who they pick 66.6% of the fans are going to be pissed anyway. That number may grow to about 99% if they take an OL. You being the 1% that just might be happy apparently. good luck with that
Allrightythen, I am assuming from your last post that Ireland should pick a player who will cause the least amount of fan pissyness, regardless of how the front office and their scouts view the players available at the time of Miami's pick? You are avoiding my question, unless the rolleyes means "yes" to you? What if they choose O-Line and the fans are displeased? So what? Do you think they would choose that particular position just to upset people, or might they feel that they have good reason to choose the way they do? Earlier in our discussion you agree'd that O-Line was an area that needs to be addressed (especially with Smiley leaving). So there is a perceived need there as well as elsewhere. If the Front Office targets 3 players (WR/OLb/OG) at that pick and in their view the OG is BPA at their pick- do you think they should pick someone they view as less valuable to make people happy, or pick who they feel is best and let the cards fall as they may? I think saying "don't pick O-Line because people will be pissed" is not a valid reason not to pick who they may (MAY) consider as most valuable to the team when they select.
the team has bigger needs than OL and everyone knows it. I didnt say they should pick a certain player to please the fans I said if they pick an OL the fans will be pissed. jesus christ you dont understand that.
If Miami's value board has a Guard as the Best player available (which does fit a need, though maybe not the biggest need) at their pick, should they not choose him because some/many/all the "fans" would be mad? Should Cameron have picked Brady Quinn instead of Ginn because the fans wanted QB instead of WR? You are right, I don't understand you, but I do think the Front Office should pick the player they think is the best available regardless of what the fans think, and let the cards fall as they may. I would appreciate it if you would at least attempt to answer the question I asked- that would probably help me understand your position on who you think Miami should choose (their BPA or Fan pleasing).
Problem with that line of thinking is it assumes "only" Iupati could fill the need, Sparano and Ireland have staked alot on their ability to develop talent and typically they do hit with players like Polite, Bess and Garner, so why use the ICBM to fix a leaky faucet?
I'm not saying that "only" Iupati would fix the problem. Nor would I say "only" Bryant would fix the WR problem, or "only" spiller would fill the coming RB problem, or "only" Graham would fix the OLB problem. I prefer that the Ireland choose whomever they have rated as Best Player Available according to their big-board or whatever you want to call it. Even if the BPA is a guard and the fans collectively puke. (oh and the O-Line is the launching pad for the ICBM in my poor analogy)
Oh sure, as fans we can form an opinion, as the pros, they have to form an opinion and act on it, Tuna/Irish/Sparano all have good track records in the NFL so their decisions tend to not be questioned as much, but a G would cause the temperature to rise a bit among the Phin Faithful. Cam Cameron and Randy Mueller had no such experience to lean on when they took Ted Ginn over Brady Quinn and that was when the near riot broke out in 07. I'll never forget the sight of Cameron in a faded pink polo shirt talking about Ted Ginn...and his family... Ireland and Sparano would just say "we liked him" and leave the podium.. Well, in Mushashi terms, an overwhelming strength will overcome a minor weakness, sort of like Cam Wake's speed rush overcoming his lack of play recognition..if you are going to be strong in only one area, you'd better be dominant. You can win with a long weapon, and yet you can also win with a short weapon. In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size.
My Gawd, that was pathetic wasn't it? As much as I wanted to be optimistic, just listening to him up there made me think that poor basterd was in over his head. Funny thing is, most of those complaining fans in attendance were upset because they wanted Quinn. I was sad because we weren't getting Patrick Willis.
fans opinions only matter in the aspect of buying tickets ... IF i'm the GM, i getting the best player for the teams current and future needs ... however, today -- fans are pretty aware of what the situation is, so we also can see what a team 'needs' as well. but the answer is that you don't draft or sign FAs to please fans .... additionally, G just isn't a position of need on this team -- now or in the near future ... so yes, as a fan -- i would be very, very disappointed if we choose an OL in rds 1-4 ... the only position of remote need on the OL is 'C' ... and that is because just like Smiley, Grove is injury prone = liability ... we do have Berger as a capable backup -- but we 'could' look for a permanent replacement for next year.
If we did draft Iupati, especially with Dez still on the board, can you imagine the fan reaction? It is funny trying to picture Tony Sparano in your mind coming out to address the fans after the pick and saying: Let me tell ya a little about this young man we drafted...he is going to be a fine blocker on special teams too, while he is working his way into the offense, and not only did we draft Mike Iupati, but we drafted the entire Iupati family as well. Tony would never do anything so corny, nor would Ireland. Trying to sell their decision to a bunch of disgusted fans. But just picturing him doing it in your mind, is kind of funny. As for your post, I basically agree. I see about a 10% chance Hughes makes it to #43, whereas Worilds is better than 50/50. Coming off a poor 2009 season, by his standards, in a deep draft he may make it to our 3rd round pick. You are entirely right about guards too. They do have generally very long careers, compared to most positions. I'd guess the three positions with the best chance of a long career, are QB, OG and C. I also like Culver as a possible FS, but don't want to put all my eggs in one basket and have little faith in Clemons at this point. We still need to draft a safety or two IMO.
Incognito can play Center. As to Guard- if and when Smiley is dumped we have Garner, Thomas and Incognito. None of them are a sure thing as a solid player at this point.
you are right about no sure thing ... heck Incognito isn't a sure thing either as he could melt down mentally during any game. and yes, this FO has in the past taken Gs high in the draft -- for Gs 6'5" or better .... so, Iupati fits that mold ... and that makes it possible. what we don't know is where Thomas, Tsoumpas, Garner, Hartline, Fienga are all at ... IF we had some insight to this -- it would be easier to decipher ... but given we have all those bodies, i just have to believe since we will only keep 3 of these ... that we are satisfied where we stand. equally, you don't bring in Tsoumpas and Fienga if you are satisfied with whats in the cupboard. BUT, if you want to say that Iupati will be the replacement model for Grove next year .... and get rid of the injury history on our OL ... i could at least accept that. tough call -- but even if we chose Iupati and he is the real deal .... on the defensive side of the ball -- we haven't improved .... and IMHO -- that is what is going to get us where we need to go. the 'O' will be good enough.
