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Honest question:

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Colmax, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Who thought Miami was running a 2-gap scheme?

    I've seen many posters comment on this 2-gap scheme in the recent weeks, and I would like to know the reasons why you thought Miami ran this?

    I've never played the game, and do not know much outside of recognizing a base 3-4/4-3.

    The reason I ask is for knowledge only. Not to bash anyone here. Just want honest discourse as to why folks thought this.

    Also, for those posters like myself who are not very "scheme-knowlegeable", would you explain the differences.

    Thanks in advance!
     
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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    conceptualy in its simplest form it is what it sounds like, 1 player who is responsible for two gaps, which translates into each player reading and reacting before committing...a few of us are confused [Section was the first to call this new coach out} about the coordinator saying we dont play two gap when if you look at the tape there are very many reps that indicate that it was...looking back at my own comments after the redskin and jaguars game I could show you a bunch of posts screaming at the dline for not getting upfield, not just beating their man and eyeballing the ball carrier, but just the opposite, slanting to a spot was very consistent, read and reacting was what I saw, and that is the fundamental principle of a two gap system....yuck..maybe its not a pure two gap in principle, but coyle did not have them playing a tru 1 gap get up field system.

    this is why dan cambell fired the guy, he wants to win matchups first play scheme later, coyle was overscheming the dline..said it after the rewatches.
     
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  3. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 Well-Known Member

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    3-4 is 2 gap, 4-3 is 1 gap.
     
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  4. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    As I understand it.
    One gap. The DL line in the gap between OL. the DL can get upfield quicker, but the OL knows where each DL is going so it is easier to double team, trap and pull.One gap favors faster quicker DL.
    Two gap: The DL line up opposite an OL and can go left or right. Its slower for the DL to penetrate, but its harder for the OL to double team because they don't know where each DL is going. Two gap prefers bigger stronger DL.

    traditionally 3-4 was two gap and 4-3 was one gap, but now defensive co-ordinators will mix things up. Sometimes a scheme will have some plays where there is 2 gap on one side of the center and 1 gap on the other side.
     
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  5. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    In direct answer to the OP, there have been at least a couple of media articles talking about Miami running a two gap, one was posted on here, and I re-posted the text. It seems that the origin of this, though, as per DJ, is people's observations rather than any declaration coming from the team (which would be unusual).
     
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  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The first post in the link below is the very basics of understanding gaps, there's more as you read through I think.

    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?85884-Football-101
     
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  7. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    What the problem is here is that it keeps being talked about as a 2 gap D, but it isn't, the more specific problem is that they have Suh playing the 2 gap DT position.

    There are rarely any Ds that can be called 2 gap Ds, there are players that are 2 gap players, and it's their responsibility to cover 2 gaps, and this responsibility requires them to read which gap to close.

    Usually in a 4-3 it's the left DT that is the 2 gap DT, which is not to say they are always playing 2 gap, but even if they aren't 2 gapping they are taking 2x, which in essence is very similar to playing a 2 gap, except they aren't reading 2 gaps, they are just taking on 2 blockers, but they are clogging the line, which is what a 2 gap player does.

    The purest 2 gap players are NTs in the 3-4, the second hardest position in sports next to QB, they line up on the center and have the responsibility to read which side of the C they should close, and they have to close that gap while being 2x, and like the QB, there are only a handful of players on the planet that can actually do it well, because you have to be smart and ridiculously strong.

    What the big crowing is all about with this whole 2 gap thing, is the fact that Suh is playing that position when he has made his bones playing the penetrating DT position, and he isn't that effective playing the clog DT position, the Lions Dline was specifically designed to get Suh in a lot of 1 on 1 situations, this is where Suh can shine, 1 on 1, he isn't all that strong for a DT, but he is freakishly athletic and quick for a 300 lb guy, THAT is what makes Suh, Suh.

    I have, very controversially I may add, said that Suh was overrated, but my whole basis on him being overrated is on display every week with the Fins so far, he isn't that good at the point of attack, in Detroit he exploited sub average/average players 1 on 1, and he did this many times by leaving his lane, running out side it to get to the QB and those guy just can't keep up with him, but he was not being lane/gap responsible, so many times he would just create a hole in the Dline.

    I watched a lot of Detroit tape this offseason because the Fins were talking about Suh as the LDT, and how they brought him in to stop the run, and I was under the assumption he was a pass rushing DT, watching tape I saw that was entirely true, but I also saw how avg he was against the run, and how actually he was sometimes responsible for big runs because he wasn't gap/lane responsible, for instance, he is lined up on the LG, and tries to run around the left side of that G, but it's a quick run play to the right shoulder of said G, now Suh is on the other side of that G and there is a big hole where Suh was, iow, his greatest strength is his greatest weakness, just like John Randle, except that Suh is a poor mans Randle.

    So it's not a 2 gap D that is the question, it's why is Suh playing in the 2 gap DT position, which by the way I expect to change now.
     
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  8. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Good question, good answers. Very educational thread!
     
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  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Finster, I watched JJ Watts allow a big run last night when he went outside, and they ran inside of him. It happens all the time. Doesn't mean anything, other than the offense guessed right on that play.
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Dude stop defending Tannehill!!!!!
     
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  11. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Exactly, and if Suh is so average against the run, then how come he wreaked havoc on the Patriots run game when they played last year? And average strength for a defensive tackle, I'm not sure what tape you're watching Finster but I'll trust f****** Tannenbum's evaluation of the player over yours any day of the week, and I dislike Tannenbum (obviously). The Lions were also the best team in the NFL last year against the run, but yea, Suh wasn't a big part of that and sucks agaisnt the run because he's so undisciplined lol.
     
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  12. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    JJ watt is a DE.
     
  13. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    At the very least there should be an attempt to replicate exactly what Suh was doing in Detroit. You don't pay this guy all that money and not do that.
     
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  14. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Are you not watching the games?

    You don't have to take anyones opinion, just watch the games, Suh is being handled 1 on 1 at times, pancaked even, at least once, and 2x are driving him right off his spot, if he was as great as many people think (I was also under this assumption prior to looking at Lions tape) then he wouldn't be rendered ineffective because he's playing LDT instead of RDT.
     
  15. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Does that change the fact that getting up the field and going for a sack creates a huge hole in the run game? I get Suh is a D tackle, but if you really watched the tape from last year like you claim and don't think Suh was a huge part of a D allowing less than 70 rush yards per game, I don't see how you could come up with that conclusion. Suh is a great all around DT and that's why he got paid what he did.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Miami isn't playing 2-gap.

    You can describe two-gap as attacking a blocker, and one-gap as attacking a gap. But there's differences in how a guy might play any particular play, how aggressive a guy might be in a given defensive or situation, etc. and so on.

    It's more complicated than that.

    There are 4-3 fronts that have two-gap responsibilities. Pete Carroll(and his guys) typically have someone along the front 2-gapping(a DE or a NT). Some fronts like that will have a two-gap bubble- Like for example Nick Saban's defense in Miami would have the strongside DE/NT 2-gap, and the weakside DT/DE 1-gap.

    There's a lot of differences in the 3-4 too. Sometimes you'll have "bubbles". There are a couple of 1-gap 3-4 defenses(Wade Phillips notably). There are some like Ray Horton's that all all 1-gap in the front except the strongside OLB will be two-gap over the TE.

    Basically you have more gaps than men in the front-7 and you've got to figure out how to account for all of them.
     
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  17. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    This is the real crux of the 2 gap story, put Suh where he can be Suh.
     
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  18. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    I watch a s*** ton of tape just like you. I know Suh has struggled this year, but I also know what an incredible prospect Suh was coming out of Nebraska, and how he only exceeded expectations for however many years he was in Detroit and that's extremely impressive considering how much he had to live up to. He surpassed even the loftiest of expectations in Detroit, just like LeBron James, he's that kind of a talent in his sport. Lions fans know what they lost and why they're 0-4, even if you don't, in my humble opinion.
     
  19. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    DT and DE are different positions with different responsibilities, it's apples and oranges.
     
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  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, just saying, That defenders still get beat to their opposite side, depending on which way they go, in relation to the play call. You can't say that because Suh went to a certain gap, and the run went that other way, that it means that Suh did something wrong.
     
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  21. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    69.3 rushing yards per game last year is all the Lions defense allowed. Suh will be just fine, 4 games in the grand scheme of things means very little, ask the 2014 Patriots.
     
  22. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    What it means is that he isn't being gap/lane responsible, which is a big part of DTs controlling the LOS, but he is asked to be g/l responsible here in Miami, and he's doing what he's being asked, he's just not great at it.
     
  23. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    But somehow he was last year and every other year of his NFL and collegiate career lol. 69.3.
     
  24. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    So, with all of that, I would assume there are "tells" or even "smart guesses" in the 1-gap? And, I guess the LBs would undoubtedly have to be on the same page as these guys on run plays. AND, if the line is compromised, the LBs have to be able to get through the mess in order to close quickly? But the LBs have to recognize this. And Miami's LBs just aren't the most impressive group (can we somehow just ask Patrick Willis to come out of retirement??).

    Okay, I sort of think I am beginning to get it.

    With the way they are/have played Suh, your LBs (I am guessing here) have to have range, reaction, and recognition. If the back gets past the line (which has been common), your backers have to get there quick and in a hurry while taking the right angles. I've seen it several times, these missed tackles from bad angles.

    You have Jones who is a thumper, so that's good when he cheats up. But you are compromised on the back end with Aikens, esp. on play-action.

    You want your ends to be able to control their guy on runs to the outside (which isn't their forte), but you have these tiny DBs who are overmatched, and now that you are undermanned with the backers, they have to cover more ground once the play is past the line. And Miami's backers outside of Jenkins and maybe Sheppard do not cover that much ground. And they're not always great at it.

    It's like Miami is using a bunch of mismatch players to fit into this scheme, rather than playing to the strengths of players.

    Most of this is just rambling, but am I making sense here? It just doesn't seem like Miami is built for the run. Not the way the players were being utilized. It was like Miami is all-in going against the pass only. Totally disregarding the run almost. Like teams would inevitably be playing catch up because they were being outscored by Miami's offense. But Miami's offense is not so good right now. And scheme all you want, but the defense eventually tires from all of these runs.

    This is bad, and I don't think Miami's D is built for the ground game. It seems as though it's designed specifically for the pass. Which is fine if you're way ahead. You can get sacks and turnovers. But Miami's offense is basically inert right now.
     
  25. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    That's an over-simplification.
     
  26. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You had a DC put one of the most Dominant DL in the last decade in a position where he wanted him, rather then build the defense around Suh.

    It would be like putting Dan Marino in an offense where they ran the power I most of the time, handed off most of the time, and took away his ability to audible.

    Pretty sure nobody here would advocate that, but thats what Coyle did with Suh.
     
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  27. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Very good summations, and yes, in a nut shell, there is a lot of out of place and or just a lack of ability in certain areas which has lead to disjointedness, for lack of a better term, and a lack of trying to put the better players in a position to succeed.

    It's my hope that much of this will be addressed, as well as can be expected at any rate, not expecting miracles, but I do expect more of a sound strategy.
     
  28. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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  29. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Suh has the most powerful punch in the game as per sports science show they did before his draft. It's very noticeable in Nebraska footage. I just haven't seen much Detroit film...because I don't watch or have access to "film". Spent it all on Sumo and sriracha sauce.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    In Detroit, they moved Suh all over the line. He lined up at DE and DT. I would say he primarily succeeded at penetrating from inside, but that was his role regardless of whether he was inside or outside. That was his strength and he was moved all over to try and find the most favorable match-ups. If you can put your best defensive player on their weakest OL player then that increases your odds of disrupting the offense. The complaint here is that we haven't moved him around and too often ask him to stand up his player and react to what the offense does. That's not what he does best.
     

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