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A discussion on this year's class of wide receivers

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by The Sportz Guy, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    It's common knowledge the Dolphins lack a big-bodied receiver. I've been saying it ever since Brandon Marshall was traded, and Miami has yet to solve the issue - it's time to make it a priority. I don't believe free agency is the route to go in this matter. Miami already has way too much money invested in the corps (mainly in Wallace and Hartline, the latter I'm hoping will be cut), and I'd rather see them pair Landry with a fellow running mate who can grow as a Dolphin. This isn't an issue that needs to be resolved in a later round, though - the Dolphins need a play-maker who will strive both in the red zone and between the 20's. They need someone who can go up and make a play on the ball, not only helping the offense as a whole but also as a relief of some pressure off Tannehill.

    Amari Cooper isn't a legitimate option. He's going top 5, and the Dolphins would be silly to trade up. Looking at the standards needed, three receivers pop out to me:
    1) DeVante Parker, Louisville (6'3, 205 pounds)
    2) Jaelan Strong, Arizona State (6'3, 212 pounds)
    3) Sammie Coates, Auburn (6'2, 201 pounds)

    Out of the group, Coates seems to be the rawest, so he would need some time to develop. Who do you guys like, and who are some other names that should be considered?
     
  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Kevin White is the second best WR in this draft imo....if he's gone before 14 I think you roll the dice in rd 2 on a Devin Smith
     
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  3. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Yea, I like White more then Parker too.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If your going receiver at #14 either White, Parker or Cooper, I think Cooper might drop a little...Sammie is a legit 1st round prospect, very competitive player, might be raw, doesn't like to extend his arms too far away from his body but I think you have to keep a close eye on him throughout this offseason evaluation process to see if the hands are natural..

    gotta get the hartline contract off the books..

    Im not about size, I'm about strength and speed and playing ability, I won't compromise those attributes for size.
     
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  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The wide receivers that Miami will most likely be considering on Days 1 & 2 include, listed in order of my evaluation of their TALENT (leaving politics out of it):

    01. Dorial Green-Beckham, Oklahoma (flag: character)
    02. Amari Cooper, Alabama
    03. Kevin White, West Virginia
    04. Devin Smith, Ohio State
    05. Jaelen Strong, Arizona State
    06. Nelson Agholor, USC
    07. Tyler Lockette, Kansas State (flag: size)
    08. Sammie Coates, Auburn
    09. DeVante Parker, Louisville

    I don't include Devin Funchess in there because I believe he will be considered a tight end. You could probably argue that Rashad Greene or Josh Harper could be considered as well but I don't consider them to be grouped in with the above nine players, who I believe constitute their own talent group.
     
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  6. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    What do you like more about White?
     
  7. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    I agree that Hartline's contract needs to go. His pay certainly didn't equate to his productivity, whether you want to claim it was because he simply wasn't involved with the offense or not. I never bought that he was worth his contract in the first place.

    Yeah, certainly size isn't everything. I think it's important that the wide receiver they target has jump-ball ability and the desire to come down with the 50-50 balls. I personally like Parker - his size, speed, jumping ability, and hands are an impressive combination.
     
  8. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    I am intrigued by Green-Beckham's talent, but do you think he has the speed to be a stud outside of the red zone?
     
  9. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    My problem with Dorial Green Beckham is his clear cut red flags, has pretty good talent but whats the point if he is always getting suspended. Time will tell but I dont trust him.
     
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  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Does he have the size to be a stud outside of the red zone? Did you mean does he have the speed?

    Either answer is "yes". He's probably the closest in terms of pure talent and physical ability that we've seen since Calvin Johnson. He was a 5 star recruit coming out of high school, actually I think he may have been regarded as the single best high school football recruit on the planet.

    He made good on his potential at Missouri, clearly taking the spotlight away from L'Damian Washington who was a decent pro prospect in his own right with an intriguing combination of 6'4" height and 4.38 speed. But Washington couldn't hold a candle next to Dorial Green-Beckham on tape, once DGB got going.

    You're not necessarily going to buy DGB as a finished product. Last time he played, he caught 59 balls for 883 yards and 12 TDs. Plenty good but there are certainly more productive guys. You're buying DGB because he's 6'5" & 225 lbs, and he may actually break into the 4.3x territory. He has that potential. I've seen estimates that have him at 4.49 but I expect him to do better than that unless he's been slacking during his training (which given his character flags, is possible).
     
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  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This is the correct reason to be wary of him, IMO.

    But I don't know the answer on how we should consider that. I think the NFL is going to do its best to sweep his college issues under the rug and let him start fresh. Does he end up in more situations where he abuses women? Does he continue to get into trouble with marijuana? We're just guessing at this point.
     
  12. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Yea, its a tough call, I hope he is the great talent that will keep his nose clean but seeing guys like Percy Harvin and Josh Gordon come out of college as all world talents but similar red flags and **** up terrifies me. There is no denying he can be great if he stays out of trouble because of his size, speed, and talent. I would love to grab him in rd 2, but i dont think he falls that far, and if we take him at 14 and pass on a guy like K. White and then Green Beckham gets suspended 2 years in and K. White is making his first pro bowl and looking like a top 10 WR in the league I will be pretty upset, granted this is pure speculation but thats just a fear of mine. I have seen it happen so many times, especially as a Phins fan.
     
  13. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    Yes, I edited that after I realized the typo. He certainly possesses crazy upside if he has the speed and can get over the character concerns. It'll be interesting to see how his stock rises/drops as the process progresses. Do you think Beckham can produce right off the bat? I'm sure the current regime is worried about how the team performs now.
     
  14. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've developed a mancrush on Devin Smith.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Talent reigns. He has as much or more talent compared to anyone else in the draft at the position. So yeah I'm sure he could make an immediate impact.
     
  16. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The only reason I'd target a "big-bodied" receiver for this team is if that receiver had as big a body as Brandon Marshall, and he could shake off DBs like flies and get YAC. Otherwise, I'm more interested in the guys who can catch short and intermediate passes and make people miss, and those guys typically don't have big bodies.
     
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  17. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Many will argue the Beckham over Cooper ranking, I on the other hand will not. DGB has a ceiling that is unmatched in this class, I just want him as far away from NE as possible because I could see him realizing his full potential there the easiest.

    I likely put Parker somewhere inbetween Devin Smith and Jalean Strong. Nice list.
     
  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Since you're saying those are the WR's Miami will be considering, I think the concept of "talent" should be conditioned upon what would help the Dolphins the most (instead of ranking WR's in a vacuum). In which case, I'd rate Parker up near the top because he would be a great redzone target, and that's one of our biggest needs.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I do not agree with this. Yes the Dolphins would like to add red zone weapons (every team would) but that does not mean DeVante Parker is a good system fit for them. Based on the system they run and the skill set they seem to be looking for with respect to players like Jarvis Landry, Mike Wallace, Matt Hazel, etc...I would say that DeVante Parker continues to hold a spot toward the bottom of the list once you start to consider system fit.

    Furthermore your premise that the Dolphins will need a guy to play DeVante Parker's role may be flawed. Right now the question they seem to be asking themselves is whether they should sell Mike Wallace off to whoever will take him in trade, or whether they should cut him. Does DeVante Parker fill the role of a Mike Wallace? Certainly not. For that you would look more toward a Devin Smith, Nelson Agholor, Tyler Lockett or Sammie Coates.

    My list is free of what I call "politics". It's my perception of the talent at the top of the receiver board, pulling out red flags, system considerations, and specific needs.
     
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  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lazor himself said it this year. Forget red zone targets. The best way to improve red zone efficiency is not get there in the first place. Who's the guy who can score from the opponent's 20 yard line? Give me that guy!

    EDIT: I meant score from your own 20 yard line.
     
  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    You have to factor in whether this is a coaching staff that can handle players with behavioral question marks.

    So far, this staff has been poor at that.
     
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  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I'm assuming they keep Wallace. Whether that turns out to be accurate or not, IF you assume Wallace is on the team, I don't see how you can rate Parker that low. He has an amazing ability to catch passes. I guess I should just ask you to elaborate on exactly why you think Parker wouldn't be a good fit assuming we keep at least Wallace and Landry.
     
  23. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Is there a coaching staff that's been good at it?
     
  24. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I am all for picking the best WR still on the board in round 4. Because the Dolphins have bigger needs at OG, LB, and safety, and these positions need to be filled before they worry about drafting another WR.
    They have spent more money on the WR position than any other NFL team in recent years and all it has gotten them is a very average record.

    They need to keep Wallace and see if they can restructure Harline. Landry will only continue to improve and perhaps they can pick up another veteran WR for a bargain in free agency.

    Until they get the real problems fixed on the offensive line and on defense, drafting a WR in the early rounds of this years draft makes no sense at all.
     
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  25. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How about if we sign a veteran LB and S in FA....would you be against drafting one of these talented WR's? Free agency will go a long way in determining what we target at 14.
     
  26. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    I rather go WR in rd 2 considering how deep the class is but im not completely opposed to drafting a WR in rd 1. As long as we dont draft an OL in rd 1. Ideally, I would like to see us grab a FS, LB, DT in rd 1 but im ok with a WR, TE, RB or CB in rd 1 too, its easy for us to go BPA this year IMO.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Remember this is a politics free position board. He's not low on the list you quoted due to his being a poor system fit. I believe he is a poor system fit for Miami, but it's irrelevant to where I ranked him.

    It seems you mostly just disagree with my ranking him 9th in the class. I'm fine with that disagreement. I've evaluated all of these guys. I happen to like 8 of them a little bit better, though I'm waivering a bit on Sammie Coates versus DeVante Parker.

    As for why I have him ranked there, let me make a few points:

    1. This is not the insult you would perceive it to be. This is a good receiver class, like the one before it. In my experience, strong position classes tend to come out in twos. As in, there's a strong WR class in 2014 and then another strong one in 2015, and then a hangover. The 2014 class was incredibly strong with 9 rookie receivers scoring at least 5 touchdowns, about seven rookie receivers getting around 700 yards or better, etc. What we saw out of Odell Beckham, Mike Evans, Sammy Watkins, Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews was pretty special as that group combined for over 5200 yards and 47 touchdowns. I believe the next class could be a lot like the 2014 class and so when you see guys in front of DeVante Parker, it should not be considered THAT much of an insult.

    2. No getting around it, DeVante Parker plays slow. Whether it's being caught from behind by a safety that has 4.67 speed, or failing to create separation against corners that play him aggressively, or having guys easily stay over top of him on vertical routes...there's speed deficiency all over his tape. You can watch him go up against mediocre college corners like Jack Tocho and Juston Burris, both of whom have 4.6 speed, and they will go up to play him on the line of scrimmage in press position and easily stay with him down the field on fly patterns. What happens when, instead of 4.6 speed, the corners he faces in the NFL have 4.3 and 4.4 speed? They will be even more aggressive with him, and that is when you'll see more interceptions happen trying to get the ball to Parker in short spaces. Players that have a considerable excess of speed against Parker will take away those slant patterns. Overall once you really identify the speed problems they're hard to unsee when you examine the rest of his tape. It's hard to ignore how COMFORTABLE corners look running with him on routes, even mediocre college corners that don't have pro tangibles. Where they start to look uncomfortable is when they try to handle him physically and I'm not sure this translates as well as people think.

    3. So how did he get his production in college? He is not without positives. He's good with the ball in his hands and that's probably where I see him winning the most impressively, even more so than the contested jump ball situations. He does win some of those jump ball situations, obviously. He's got good hands and he adjusts to and high points the ball very well. But a lot of his college production you will notice comes from things the defenses gave him rather than things he took. He had production during garbage minutes of out of control ball games (e.g. the Georgia bowl game). He took advantage of a lot of coverage breakdowns where a defender just screwed the pooch by either falling to the ground or following the wrong guy. His routes are very poor. He doesn't have any burst out of his cuts and he often takes a lot of steps to make a cut. He doesn't create separation by virtue of the route or his speed, which creates a lot of these jump ball situations.

    Here's a more concise list of my observations on Parker, broken into positives, negatives and neutral observations:

     
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  28. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Personally I feel you have to build through the draft. That is what the better teams in the NFL do. The Dolphins have been trying to win for several years by bringing in free agents to supplement their very average drafts. All this has gotten them is a very mediocre record over the past several years.

    I don't see the Dolphins being a legitimate playoff contender next year or probably for another 2-3 years. So I would rather see them start being more productive in the draft and rely far less on high priced free agents.

    While the Dolphins have had some success in free agency with the signings of Wake and Grimes, and Albert. They have had far more misses in free agency than they have had big hits.

    Until this team can be consistent in the draft and find starting caliber players year in and year out, I just don't see them being anymore than the same mediocre team they have been for years.

    I would rather see the Dolphins use the draft to fill the offensive guard position, the LB position and the safety position. We need long term starters at these positions. Most free agents the Dolphins have signed only last a year or they remain on the team only because the salary cap hit would be too much to release them.

    They have tried the free agent route and all it has done is keep them average. It's time now to start building through the draft and perhaps supplement positions like WR with a veteran who is willing to sign a cap friendly contract to play in the league for another year.

    Perhaps in a year or two, once the other bigger needs have been filled, it will be time to draft a WR in the first or second round.
    I just don't see WR being that big a need at this time.
     
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  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Well.. thanks for the detailed response. For the most part I agree with your assessment, but what tickles me is playing the role of offensive coordinator and imagining how you would use 3 very different types of receivers (Wallace, Landry and Parker) whose positives and negatives seem to complement each other (the deficits of one are strengths of another).

    I understand Lazor's current scheme isn't the best fit for Parker, but you have got to admit that having 3 such complementary weapons gives an OC the potential for a very good passing offense (more in my opinion than with some other WR's on the list). That's really all I'm looking at. And I would hope that Lazor is good enough at his job that he could find a way to incorporate those abilities.

    Anyway, I definitely agree with point #1. Why it's true (why we are suddenly seeing WAY above average numbers of good WR talent in 2 consecutive drafts) I don't know.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm a little different that way. I see what you're saying, imagining what an offensive coordinator can do with the different skill sets, but I see a danger in over-specialization.

    You've got Mike Wallace over-specialized for the deep ball, you've got Jarvis Landry over-specialized for screens and slants, and you've got DeVante Parker over-specialized for basic routes (fade or stop) and red zone work.

    The over-specialization can lead to predictability from a down, distance and situation standpoint.

    Where I think an offensive coordinator REALLY has a field day is when he's got pieces that are all versatile. So let's say Wallace were to be as dangerous on short and intermediate routes as he is on deep routes, suddenly the defense can't peg him for being the deep guy. Let's say Jarvis Landry were just as dangerous going deep as catching slants and screens. That's trouble. And if DeVante Parker were a real receiver with a real route tree at his disposal, that'll be what makes him dangerous.

    I think this is what Bill Lazor desires. He's made more commitment to using the guys in different roles than Mike Sherman did. Sherman let them be specialized, to do what they do best. Lazor had Wallace in the slot 100+ times this year. That's not something you saw a year ago as Wallace was only in the slot 18 times. Brandon Gibson (95%) and Rishard Matthews (89%) were almost exclusively slot guys a year ago. This year only Jarvis Landry was a heavy slot guy and his percentage (77%) wasn't near as exclusive as we saw with Gibson and Matthews. The next most slot heavy guy Gibson (42%) was actually on perimeter more often than slot.

    I think ultimately the guy that Lazor likes will be a player that can run, can be versatile from perimeter to slot and back, runs well after the catch, blocks well, and catches the football very well. I think he wants naturals when it comes to catching the football on the run.

    I think Nelson Agholor is a very good fit, actually.
     
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  31. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    I don't see a FS or LB worth taking at 14. At this point, a WR or DT seem to be the most valuable. I'd rather see an OG through FA instead of spending a high investment on one. Personally, I would like to see a WR in round one, a LB like Perryman or Kendricks in round two, and then a DT.
     
  32. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    FS G. Holliman is a playmaking machine who plays a good "center field" and cuts off routes nicely and LB B. McKinney is definatley worth a look. Both those guys will be slated to go in the teens-early twenties of draft.

    WR is a such a deep position this year that it is silly to grab one in rd 1 but im not opposed, I just think its smarter to go after another need first in rd 1.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I like Nelson Agholor for this offense a lot. Here's a good scouting report on Agholor that I actually agree with a lot in most respects:

    http://draftbreakdown.com/ndt-scouting-report-southern-cal-wr-nelson-agholor/

    If you are to take aside the natural inclination for us to acquire guys as physically talented as possible, and consider a guy's strength/weakness profile and how well it fits your system and key desired traits...Nelson Agholor fits this offense LIKE A GLOVE. Seriously. You can't cut it from stone better than this for Lazor's offense.

    That said you could say well forget system considerations I want a guy like Jaelen Strong that makes these big impressive physical high point catches. Or I want Dorial Green-Beckham because he's 6'5" & 225 lbs and has the potential to run in the 4.3's and be the next Calvin Johnson. I feel that. But if you're designing a guy to fit your offense while acknowledging that he can't be perfect in every category, just the ones that you need him to be perfect in for your system...like I said, Nelson Agholor fits like a glove.
     
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  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I suggest watching this entire video of Cody Kessler's game against California. Nelson Agholor had like 16 catches in this thing.

    He is jersey #15 and he can be hard to keep up with at times because he switches his position on the field so often, but he's usually the guy with his jersey untucked and hanging over his butt and a white towel in his back pocket.

    If you're having trouble picking him out, just pause the video briefly before the play starts, make sure you've got him, then hit the space bar to get it playing again.

    And watch out for him lining up in the backfield as a running back. Like I said he's versatile.

    http://proxy-54.dailymotion.com/vid...098-ryecqq4u-89573169ceb3fd5925f0f588b2c2bbc2
     
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  35. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    CK always great to hear your insight. Agree with pretty much all of your aforementioned rankings especially with DGB's ability over reputation. I do think the Josh Gordon news this week, will have negative effect on DGB and really hammer his background and character. While he is a Top 10 talent it wouldn't surprise me to see him fall to round 3 or 4.

    I really like Strong who I think has the highest ceiling of the unit outside DGB and seems like a good dude. I fully expect him to be available at #14 and while some may view it a stretch it could pay off long term. Kevin White I like as well, as he is the type.

    I see what your saying about Devante and clearly remember him being caught from behind in the FSU game on a play he should've scored.

    I'll have to take a look at Agholor some more, but what round would you view him as a possibility? 2nd or 3rd?

    I do agree it'd be nice to have receivers who are more well versed in everything than specialized in one thing. One FA name to monitor for me is Hakeem Nicks as a player who we can sign who can offer some of the things we've been missing in the red zone. By signing a player like Nicks it may allow us to draft a Wallace replacement in round 2 or 3 (Smith, Dorsett, Lockett, Agholor).

    I'd be interested in hearing your ideal plan and personnel for this unit?
     
  36. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Remember that Nelson Agholor was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school in the "Athlete" category. Schools didn't know whether to make him a running back or wide receiver. It's easy to look at his body now and say wide receiver but his body has grown and molded into that because that's what USC has had him doing. His RAC skills probably still owe to his being a running back a lot in high school.

    He was a guy that very much needed to learn the wide receiver position. Yet he was so dilligent at it that Marqise Lee was getting tips from HIM on playing receiver, rather than the other way around. Off the field, the kid is a champion. Great kid, great personality. I know someone whose wife had a close relationship with him as his guidance counselor in high school and she raves about what a great kid he is.

    He's one of those kids that came into USC as a big time 5-star recruit, played at the same time as other headline-makers like Marqise Lee and Robert Woods, and you always could see that Agholor belonged with them even as a young pup and would have his time in the spotlight one day. He's had a great college career, done everything you expect a 5-star recruit to do.

    The guy I like to compare him to is Jeremy Maclin.

    What he probably does the best is just make the game look easy. You look at him and wonder why he doesn't have 16 catches every game. But from a quarterback and read-progression standpoint that's not always possible of course. He did have 104 catches this year though.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I see Agholor being much more gifted. Better system fit too.
     
  39. The Sportz Guy

    The Sportz Guy New Member

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    While I do agree that it's important to draft players who fit your system (so they can reach their full potential), I still crave for a receiver who can make a play on the ball in the air. I've watched the Dolphins' ineptitude in the red zone for too long. I'm not sure Dion Sims is really the answer for that problem....
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know that I have a plan yet. I think Brian Hartline is gone and he should be gone. He represents money you should not be paying.

    The tougher question is obviously Mike Wallace. In my opinion you don't just ditch him for the sake of ditching him. You've gotta know how you're replacing his skill set, and how you're replacing his production. The production doesn't have to all be one guy. Part of me doubts he would repeat his feat of catching 10 touchdowns in 2015 anyway. You can replace his production in aggregate. But his skill set, you've certainly got to replace that. The guys with skill sets you'd have to think help you replace Wallace's would be Tyler Lockett, Devin Smith, probably Phillip Dorsett as you suggest.

    The guy I go on about Nelson Agholor would probably have to be gotten in a trade down or trade up, if not at 14 overall.

    As for free agency I'm wary of Hakeem Nicks because when I've watched him, physically he just looks DONE. I don't know what happened there. But he looks gone.

    Guys with the skill sets to HELP you replace Mike Wallace's skill set would include Cecil Shorts, Denarius Moore, Nate Washington, Santana Moss and Darius Heyward-Bey. That's if you're going with poor choices that really only help you out and aren't really great answers. Among them I'd be most tempted to gamble on Shorts. But Washington or Moss could be more reliable. Also Pierre Garcon could become available, who knows.

    This assumes that Miami can't get involved with higher priced guys like Torrey Smith or Jeremy Maclin, either of whom would probably be perfect for Miami. Or perhaps Randall Cobb, even though Miami already has a slot guy in Jarvis Landry. I would assume the Ravens, Eagles and Packers will focus hard on getting those guys back.
     
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