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Mike Wallace's Effect on Ryan Tannehill's Downfield Passing

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Tannephins, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    In 2012, Ryan Tannehill's rookie season, he threw 51 passes of 20+ yards in the air, completed 20 of them (43%), for 671 yards, 3 TDs, and 1 INT. His QB rating for those passes was 98.3.

    In 2012, the same season, Brian Hartline was targeted on 25 passes of 20+ yards in the air, or 49% of the passes Tannehill threw of that nature. Hartline caught 11 of those passes, dropped 1, for 421 yards. Hartline caught 63% of the yards Ryan Tannehill threw for on passes thrown at least 20 yards in the air. Obviously Brian Hartline was Ryan Tannehill's downfield target in 2012.

    Enter Mike Wallace in 2013. In 2013 and 2014 combined, Ryan Tannehill has thrown 109 passes of 20+ yards in the air, completed 29 (27%), for 971 yards (about 486 per year), 5 TDs, and 8 INTs. His QB rating for those passes is 49.

    In 2013 and 2014, Mike Wallace has been targeted on 58 of the 109 passes of 20+ yards in the air Ryan Tannehill has thrown, or 54% of them. Brian Hartline has been targeted on 20 of those passes, or 18% of them. Hartline's involvement in the Dolphins' downfield passing game has dropped from 49% of its targets in 2012, to 18% of its targets in 2013 and 2014 combined.

    During that same period of time, Mike Wallace on the other hand has been targeted on 54% of the passes in that phase of the game. I think it becomes clear that, with the replacement of Brian Hartline with Mike Wallace as Ryan Tannehill's primary downfield passing target, Ryan Tannehill's downfield passing game has not improved as may have been expected. In fact it's regressed considerably.
     
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  2. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Drops. O-line. New OC/scheme. Context.
     
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  3. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Yup. The OL going to pot certainly played a large part of it. The more time you have to sit in the pocket the better your chances a guy gets free enough and your QB sees clearly enough.
     
  5. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    There wasn't a new scheme in 2013. Drops have been no more than the league norm. Percentage of pressured pass dropbacks hasn't changed significantly among the three years covered. Tannehill was actually sacked in 2.5 seconds or faster more times in 2012 than in either 2013 or 2014.
     
  6. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    We were number 1 in the league in drops for the better part of this entire season. Now we are top 5. That's no more than the league norm?

    edit: conflicting info. some sites say top 10. Still far from "the norm"
     
  7. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Drops on passes thrown 20+ yards in the air are what's relevant here.
     
  8. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Come on man. I don't think anyone on this site needs any statistics to convince them there is a disjoint with tanny and wallace deep throws. We all watch the same games. There are so many more factors at play here that contribute. Meanwhile, in other more important news: Tanny and Wallace are about to shatter their career highs in several statistical categories for their respective positions that matter a helluva lot more. Im fine with a lack of deep ball between the 2 of them if they continue to progress like they are. Its a WIP. Rome wasn't built in a single NFL season.
     
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  9. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Sure, and the point is that there was no such disjoint between Tannehill and Hartline in Tannehill's rookie season, when one would perhaps expect Tannehill to be worse at throwing downfield, not considerably better.
     
  10. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    And?

    Edit: WADR. You're telling us something that we all know by using the simple eye test, but excluding a ridiculously large amount of context. What or who is it you are trying to blame for what? or what point are you trying to make? A lot of Hartlines catches that year were blown coverages.
     
  11. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Brian Hartline was top 10 in deep yardage in Tannehill's rookie season. Meanwhile, Wallace had issues in his final year in Pittsburgh after Bruce Arians left.

    These things should suggest the nature of the problem is primarily with Wallace and not Tannehill.
     
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  12. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I agree. That's fact, but there is a lot of context missing. As I said above, blown coverage for Hartline was a big reason for several catches. Not to mention it was an entirely different offense with a cast of WRs that had to depend on Hartline as pretty much a #1 option (lol). There is a ton of factors at play other than Wallace is "bad and overpaid"
     
  13. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    I think the better question is, what point are you trying to make? I think I've already made mine.
     
  14. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Why wouldn't roughly the same percentage of coverages be blown for Wallace as for Hartline?
    And Hartline functioned very well as that #1 downfield option, whereas Wallace has not. If there is some sort of "context" that you can nominate that makes sense of that, let's hear it. The stuff you mentioned above didn't work.
     
  15. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Your point is that Tanny and Wallace struggle with the deep ball and felt the need to make a thread about it because it isnt being discussed enough? And then you sprinkled Hartline several seasons ago under a completely different offense with him being the #1 option on a piss poor cast of WRs as if that's helping you justify something that doesn't need to be justified? Why can't you be happy with the progression of both? Wallace has been beasting as of late. Your counter point is probably money. It's not your money and his cap hit is considerably less this year. Let it go.
     
  16. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    There wasn't a different offense in 2013. If you have a problem with the thread, don't click on it.
     
  17. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I have to list out all contexts and factors of what is involved in an NFL deep pass other than "Wallace sucks" for you? Pass.
     
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  18. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    There's plenty of context. However, that context wasn't different during the years covered. If you've run out of additional context to nominate, that's sure fine as well.
     
  19. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Obviously I wasn't talking about 2013 in that statement. im well aware. Guess what 2013 has? Other factors and context.
     
  20. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    So that's a yes? You want everything involved in a deep pass spelled out for you?
     
  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    I'll tell you what -- you "spell out" everything you think is relevant to a deep pass, and I'll do the research necessary to tell you whether there were any differences in those areas among the 2012 to 2014 teams. In other words, you can sit back and imagine "context" to drive the bus on this, and I'll do the much harder work of actually finding out whether it did and then get back to you.
     
  22. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I'm at work and don't have time to explain simple football to you . Or I'd love to. I have a better idea, let's wait and see the overwhelming lack of support your thread gets aside from the 2 or 3 token Wallace haters.
     
  23. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    You tried to "explain simple football" above, and what you mentioned got flushed down the toilet immediately. I won't hold my breath.
     
  24. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    In other news, Ryan Tannehill's number of yards per target on throws of 20+ yards in the air this year is 9.1. Brian Hartline's number of yards per target on such throws in 2012 was 16.8. If you replace the 2014 downfield targets with the same percentage of targets Hartline accounted for in 2012, and then adjust Tannehill's 2014 numbers in accordance with what Hartline did downfield in 2012, you come up with 171 more passing yards on the year, and Ryan Tannehill's QB rating goes from 93.2 to 94.5, with a corresponding jump in his YPA from 6.9 to 7.2. In other words, if the Dolphins' downfield passing game were as efficient in 2014 (with Wallace as its primary target) as it was in 2012 (with Hartline as its primary target), the pass offense would be playing in a way that's consistent with about 10 wins in a regular season on average. In that sense, Wallace's performance downfield in 2014, in comparison to Hartline's in 2012, could have very well been the difference between not making the playoffs this year and making it.
     
  25. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I haven't tried to explain anything yet, actually. all I did was point out that your wall of text thread is lacking substance and a HUGE amount of factors that are at play here. Please by all means enlighten us on what factors you think make an NFL deep pass happen or not happen, because solely "Hur Hur Hartline caught more deep bawlz than Wallace did in 3 completely different seasons, hurrr" Isn't a thread that even needs to be made, nor does it even prove anything. Ill take Wallace and his 1k yards and 10+ TDs while not catching several deep passes but showing good progress in the best offense we've had in years, over a Hartline doing anything he does, any day of the week.I wonder which one of them will be on the team next year. Hmm.
     
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  26. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And that's the whole thing in a nutshell, and in fact it could've very well been the difference between a playoff berth in 2014 and what we actually did see. The Dolphins could win 9 games this year and miss the playoffs, and that simple third of a yard adjustment of Ryan Tannehill's YPA, from 6.9 to 7.2, is associated with one more win on a season on average in the NFL. What this suggests is that the team braintrust made a mistake in thinking it needed to improve on Brian Hartline as the team's primary downfield target. In fact it's safer to say the team would've accomplished a great deal more by keeping Brian Hartline where he was, and signing or drafting a receiver who could function effectively in the short to intermediate ranges, thereby keeping Hartline fresher as the downfield target. What's ironic is that after 2012, the chorus was that opposing defenses were cramming the Dolphins' offense into a short area passing game, whereas it's far more true that that's happening now, after Mike Wallace, the player who was supposedly going to address that, has been catching passes in the offense for two years. The Dolphins appear to be far more "short field" now than they were in 2012, and the numbers back that up a great deal.
     
  27. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    These numbers prove without a shadow of a doubt that Ryan Tannehill's arm is clearly racist when it comes to heaves downfield.


    Clearly.
     
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  28. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Whats stopping us from going deep to Hartline more now?
     
  29. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    There are a ton of things that "could have been the difference" with us making playoffs or not this year. We could probably write a book of all the factors. It's comical that you pick the deep ball as the one for your thread, though. seeing as how there are numerous threads showing how relatively rare it is they are completed and how little they actually correlate with almost anything related to winning the game. with few exceptions. And just so I understand this correctly.. you're advocating that Brian Hartline should have been kept and used as our primary deep threat? For real? Or at the very least we "didn't need to improve there", just because of his numbers when he was our #1 during the era of one of the most pathetic lineups of wideouts we have ever fielded? Well I can safely say I'm glad you aren't making decisions for this team. Again, I'll take one if the fastest WRs in the league with near 1k+ yards and double digit tds as a work in progress, over Hartline who can't even seem to catch a ball without immediately falling.
     
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  30. keithjackson

    keithjackson Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lol this thread again? I'm wary to join in, however I will add one stat that is pretty interesting:

    Mike Wallace beyond 20+ yards:
    2014: 4 receptions/ 157 total yards, 1 TD, (2 receptions 40+) (so far)
    2013: 6/261, 1 TD, (3)
    2012: 4/241, 4 TD, (3)
    2011: 8/456, 5 TD, (5)
    2010: 14/561, 7 TD, (6)
    2009: 12/453, 6 TD, (5)

    Brian Hartline:
    2014: 1/35, 0 TD, (0)
    2013: 3/102, 2 TDs, (0)
    2012: 10/400, 1 TD, (0)
    2011: 7/138, 0 TD, (0)
    2010: 2/88, 0 TD, (1)
    2009: 2/96, 0 TD, (1)
     
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  31. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    I think it's the fact that he's been removed from that role and replaced by Wallace, as evidenced by the percentage of the team's downfield targets to him versus that to Wallace. And what's ironic about that is that Wallace is actually the receiver who is helping Tannehill function so much better than he ever has in the 11-20 yard range. So it would make a great deal of sense to simply have them swap roles, where Wallace is Tannehill's intermediate target, and Hartline is moved back to where he was in 2012, as the team's primary downfield target. Tannehill in 2012 wasn't anywhere near as good in the 11-20 yard range as he is this year, and ironically it's Wallace who is fueling that. The problem is that Wallace is still the downfield target, whereas Wallace could conceivably continue to function as he is in the intermediate range, and help Tannehill as he is there, while Tannehill regains what he had downfield in 2012 with Hartline.
     
  32. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Shhhh.. Wallace will never be the deep threat Hartline is.
     
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  33. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Fact of the matter is that Tanny and O had us in position to beat GB, Lions, and Broncos and the D let us down...Tanny isn't the problem here... 11-4 has us fighting for home field advantage instead of sitting on the sidelines...
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    On the contrary, the post you quoted is suggesting that Wallace, not Tannehill, is largely responsible for the remaining area of Tannehill's game that appears deficient, and that conceivably in itself kept the team from reaching the playoffs this year.
     
  35. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    That doesn't fit the "Wallace sucks" agenda. It's obvious he was one of the biggest problems we had this season.
     
  36. keithjackson

    keithjackson Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The totals over the same six season window:

    Mike Wallace: 48/2,129, 24 TDs, (24 receptions 40+ yards)
    Brian Hartline: 25/859, 3 TDs, (2 rec 40+)

    I like Hartliine and it's a shame that he doesn't fit in Lazor's offense. He runs the comeback better than anybody! However, he is no Mike Wallace when it comes to recieving down the field, especially in passes thrown beyond 40 yards. Obviously stats don't tell the whole story, but I think these easily jive with the eyeball test.
     
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  37. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Now break that down by their yards per target on throws of 20+ yards downfield. I think you'll find that in the one season Brian Hartline was a starter for the full season and was a team's primary downfield target (2012), he performed better than Mike Wallace has in that area since 2011. The other important thing to consider there is that such a comparison would involve the team's current QB as a rookie. In other words, Brian Hartline performed better downfield with a rookie Ryan Tannehill than Mike Wallace has in the two subsequent years, with a further developed Ryan Tannehill.
     
  38. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    It's emberassing that we have people who really think Brian Hartline is a better deep threat than Wallace, it's about as dumb as the Zach Thomas is a Saftey threads of years past.

    Sucks but what ya gonna do?? It is a public site.
     
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  39. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    IKR? know we don't usually see eye to eye, but Wallace has been beasting lately. Deep ball or not. He has had the best catch in the NFL for 2 weeks in a row now.
     
  40. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    If you have any objective support for the notion that Mike Wallace has been a better downfield receiver with Ryan Tannehill, let's hear it. I'm not seeing it in the post I quoted, and I suspect that rather than trying to present it, you'll say something flippant and useless, at which point I'll tune you out.
     

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