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Cuts and Trades

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phoenician Fan, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    Dolphins are projected to be a few mil over the cap in 2015. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/12/11/7376451/nfl-salary-cap-nflpa-2015

    Our 2015 free agents:http://overthecap.com/free-agency/miami-dolphins/

    I think any coach or GM will want to at least bring back guys like Jared Odrick,Charles Clay,and Michael Thomas; then there are guys like RFA Derrick Shelby,AJ Francis. What about Delmas and Knowshon Moreno?? The others?

    The rookie pool requires cap room as well.

    Changes are unavoidable.

    What players actually have trade value??...Tannehill....Wallace.....Hartline....Gibson....Starks....Earl Mitchell....Pouncey...Wake....Olivier Vernon....Dion Jordan??

    What if the new coach doesn't like Ryan Tannehill, what trade value does he have in his contract year?

    Who get's cut?? I'd guess Finnegan is too highly paid and too old to have any trade value. Isn't he too injury prone to pay another 6 mil to. Who else?

    What is Randy Starks trade value?? What about Mike Pouncey's? Earl Mitchell? Frankly Mitchell really underwhelmed me this year, he was supposed to be a big free agent prize. He looked really mediocre to me. Great pursuit speed for an interior lineman, but that was about it.

    If the new coaches are going with a base 3-4 are Starks and Mitchell really versatile enough to pay those large salaries to. Maybe trades are necessary.

    Clearing cap room isn't as easy as it looks, especially when you have a few priority free agents of your own.

    Even with a little carry over and salary cap increase, this is looking like a tough year for the GM, whoever that may be.

    What moves do you see as important this offseason? What are your projections on some of these players trade values??
     
  2. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    We MUST keep Odrick and Clay. That's gonna be quite expensive though and we also have core players like Pouncy, Tannehill, Miller, and Vernon to name a few with rookie deals soon to expire. It's all about keeping young talent, by any means necessary. You can always find cheap backups, but finding quality starters is the name of the game. We might, (and probably will) lose one of these core players eventually to free agency but we should be doing everything within our power to prevent that from happening. That may mean cutting starks, ellerbe, wheeler, and not resigning any of our guys on 1 or 2 year deals. Were gonna have to give a lil in order for us to take. I just pray we give old, and take young and that's literally it. Good luck Hickey.
     
  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    We will see some cleaning house that will open up a solid chunk. Hartline, Finnegan etc. Delmas is likely done also
     
  4. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on what the plan is. If the idea is to rebuild the defense, I could see a lot of those guys gone. I don't think we will see a major overhaul on the entire defense, but the linebacker core aside from Jenkins has got to be retooled.

    O-Line will get some tweaks as well....Gotta see what happens with Branden Albert

    I think we will bring Moreno back on some sort of deal. He was a difference maker for us when he played this year, did a lot of good things in the backfield for us. Great blocker for the position, knows how to play the game. He should come back.

    I'd like to shift the linebacker postion though for a minute,
    First off,
    Vets that will be gone in my opinion;
    Koa Misi- Nice player, not a playmaker though
    Ellerbe- Colossal bust as a free agent signing
    Wheeler- Has lost a step since joining Miami. I remember him being awesome for the Colts.

    The question then becomes who replaces these guys? Obviously I think Jordan Tripp and Kelvin Sheppard will get a look, but we are going to have to look towards the draft this year for a prospect at the linebacker position...Maybe two, because I think the main concern with our defense is the linebacker core aside from Jenkins. We need to get younger and faster in that department for this defense to be able to make the plays necessary to win games.
     
  5. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    You only bring back Odrick and Clay if they are willing to sign for a cap friendly number. Neither of them are worth the huge salaries that they might be looking to sign for in free agency.

    Right now I don't see Odrick with the Dolphins next year. I think he wants a big contract and some team is going to be willing to sign him for more than he is worth, IMO. I just hope that team isn't the Dolphins.

    Clay might be willing to sign for a cap friendly number because injuries have limited his play this year and I don't think he will get a lot of money from another team in the league.

    Thomas isn't going to get paid more than the base salary for a third year player and since he wasn't a starter for the Dolphins, I don't think there will be much interest in him by other teams in the league. If the Dolphins want to sign him, they should have no problem doing so. I just don't know if the new head coach will have any interest in him or not.

    I don't see Delmas or Moreno returning to theDolphins next year. I think their positions will be filled by players taken in the draft or in free agency. I also don't see Finnegan returning next year.

    I think Pouncey will return to center next year. If he doesn't play better next year than he has played at RG this year, I don't expect the Dolphins to sign him when he becomes a free agent in 2016.

    Starks has declined in his play considerably this year. I just don't see the Dolphins keeping him on the roster unless he is willing to restructure his contract for a great deal less money. I don't see Starks taking less money, so I doubt he will be on the roster next year.

    Mitchell hasn't had a great season, but he has played better than Starks and every bit as well as Odrick. He is already signed for next year and he is young enough to continue to improve his play on the field. I expect him to be a starter on the DL next year.

    I think it is time the Dolphins look to see what they can get for Wake in a trade. He is getting older and he just isn't the impact player he has been since he became a starter for the Dolphins. A team looking for a short term pass rusher to get to the next level might be willing to give up a second or third round pick at this stage of his career. If the Dolphins can get a second or third round pick for Wake, they should jump on that trade.

    The big question going forward is what to do with Jordan. While he would probably be better suited at OLB than DE, I just have my doubts if he will ever be anything more than a mediocre to below average player in the NFL. I think the Dolphins should try and trade him in an effort to get out of his contract and also to try and get a better player to replace him.

    If they are unable to trade him, he will most likely be on the roster next year because it will count too much against the salary cap to cut him. Maybe the next DC will move him to OLB and Jordan will flourish at that position. I hope so, but I just continue to have my doubts about him as an NFL players.
     
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  6. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    So how many pounds of shrimp do you guys think we can get if we package Wheeler and Ellerbe?
     
  7. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    If we don't resign Odrick, or tag him. And if we cut Starks which seems likely if he doesn't restructure, how the hell does anyone expect us to improve one of the weakest positions on our team, defensive tackle? I get if he asks for ridiculous money you may have to cut him loose, but that's true with anyone. Every attempt needs to be made to keep Odrick on the team imho.
     
  8. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    The big question is...........how does this team escape from the status quo crapstorm it's been in for years??

    What if it's Philbin,Coyle and Tannehill again next year and another 8-8 record if were lucky. When will it ever end?? I think I would rather be 3-13 and rebuilding than perpetuating this steaming pile of horse****.

    I am really sick of the," almost there", poison cup. Dolphins and there fans have been inoculated to anything exceptional. The Miami Dolphins have become the very definition of, mundane, in the NFL.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?source..._enUS614US614&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mundane
     
  9. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The major restructuring that is almost certain to occur is at Wide Receiver. Besides Landry, basically everyone is fair game for being cut or released. I would tend to imagine that Hartline and Gibson are givens, and Wallace/Matthews both have potential to be casualties as well.

    Defensive Tackle(or End, depending on the scheme) is also a strong possibility.

    Looking at cap figures vs. dead cap space, the following guys are potential cuts:

    Dannell Ellerbe(5.65 million saved)
    Cortland Finnegan(5.47)
    Randy Starks(5.0)
    Brandon Gibson(3.26)
    Brian Hartline(3.15)
    Earl Mitchell(3.0)
    Brandon Fields(2.90)
    Shelley Smith(2.75)
    Nate Garner(1.81)

    I tend to think there's a strong chance Phillip Wheeler may end up staying. Cutting him saves little, and he's performed quite well when put in the right role.
     
  10. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    I think it may be a mistake to presume that Mike Pouncey will be a Dolphin next year no matter what. If there is a new regime with no ties to him whatsoever he could be traded for a pick with 0 dead money rather keeping him around another year at over 7 mil and then letting him walk and getting nothing. Trade value???

    I think his cap # in 2015 is 7.3. That would go a long way toward managing the cap right there. Perhaps the new guys may not like the idea of spending that big on a center.

    If they can find one team that really likes him in spite of himself, the right price could see him wearing different colors next year. Ya, that's right, "they are who we thought they were;" and, "Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead."
     
  11. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Yeah Pouncy isn't a lock for us long term but then again if you cut or trade him you are seriously depleting another severe weakness on this team. I believe this team is very talented, we have just been screwed by below average nfl coaching. That's why I'm advocating that we should try and keep as many of our young, highly invested and productive players as possible. also Hartline's deal isn't ridiculous, and with his high character I doubt he gets the ax. The rest of the receiving core except Landry and possible Matthews are not earning their $$ imo. Hartline isn't producing this year, but his career would suggest he will bounce back and be more productive going forward I believe.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you can tag Pouncey, put his *** back at center like he wants...we need him next year, rent his *** for the year, and lets once and for all put a value on him long term.
     
  13. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Pounds??
     
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  14. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    where did all the money go for what potentially ends up being another 8-8 season. I thought we were 30 million under at one point
     
  15. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    Jeff Ireland was the biggest football idiot in the history of the NFL. It will be two more years until his poison ceases to plague the Dolphins organization.

    This is what happens when a Buffoon! owns your team.
     
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  16. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Philbinfan I respectfully disagree. I think Ireland actually did a pretty decent job creating the core of this team. Look at teams like the Eagles, they could possibly go 11-5 and miss out on the playoffs. Shady has had a **** year, the oline has been banged up, the d sucks, Cooper is overpaid, and the have MARK FRIGGEN SANCHEEZE. But why do they win so much, coaching, our real flaw.

    Call me crazy but I believe a core of Tannehill, Pouncy, Miller, Clay, Misi, Odrick, Vernon, Jones, Jenkins to name a few of Ireland's contributions is faaaaaaaaaar from being the "biggest idiot in football history". Did he make mistakes, plenty. But he found us a keytone piece in Tannehill, and Vernon, Clay, and Miller picks were close to strokes of genius. Jones and Jenkins not bad either. Do we have problems sure. Is he to blame for many of them sure. But at least were not in QB purgatory like the iggles and we don't ******* suck like the Falcons who so many "arm chair gms" believe have the QB we should have selected. Were in a decent position for the future in the eyes of many nfl fans. Believe it or not Ireland has waaaaaaaaaay more to do with that than soooooooooo many want to believe. Time will tell, but failbin, and our clown owner seem to be the real problems with this team, not scapegoat Ireland.
     
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  17. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    If as you state, DT is one of the weakest positions on the team. Why would even want to sign Odrick to a new contract? He obviously would already be part of the problem with this weak DT position.

    My view is that there are only about 8-10 players on this roster the new head coach will want to build around over the next few years. I expect the remaining players to be replaced over the next few years. I just don't see Odrick as one of those players who will help this team get to the next level.

    He is what he is. A very average DT who probably thinks he deserves to get paid far more than what the Dolphins should be willing to pay him. I think they can find a DT in the draft or in free agency who will be cheaper than Odrick and hopefully will end up being more productive than the very mediocre player Odrick is with the Dolphins.
     
  18. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    He has his strengths and weaknesses, like any player. Sure looked a lot better with big Paul next to him. That's why I believe our DT's are so weak, no true nose tackle, (1 tech, 0 tech) whatever, a big ******* man. It isn't a coincidence that as soon as big Paul left, so did our run d. Not saying it was bad to let him go, Atlanta overpaid. But still, Starks and Mitchell are two peas in a pod, very similar players. Odrick has a pretty similar skill set to those guys too. We NEED a nose tackle, we dont need to get rid of Odrick imo who has has specialties. BTW look at what Seattle's doing and they still have Wagner and Wilson to sign. We can afford him and should keep him I believe. But we still need a nose, and possibly goodbuy Randy :(
     
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    N Suh..

    what would you do for that?
     
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  20. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Don't even.
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    shave down there and dunk in rubbing alcohol?
     
  22. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    yea pretty much.
     
  23. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    I've always loved Suh. the man's big, fast, strong, violent and intelligent. The 5 key ingredients for a HOF defensive tackle. But you could pretty much see that at Nebraska, which is why he went 2 overall.
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah he was the Andrew Luck of Dtackles.
     
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  25. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Since we have no idea what he will be demanding once he becomes a free agent, I don't see how you can be so sure the Dolphins can afford him. As I stated earlier, I have no problem with him remaining with the Dolphins if he is willing to sign for a cap friendly amount. I just don't think he is worth signing if he is looking for a lot of money.

    I certainly can't fault him for trying to get as much money as he can in free agency. I just hope the Dolphins aren't foolish enough to overpaid him.

    To me he is a very average DT and the Dolphins should only be willing to sign him to a contract commensurate with a player of that ability. If he wants more than 4 million dollars a year, they should just let him walk.
     
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  26. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mitchell has shown more this year than Soliai has in years. He's shown more upside, and while he's had some bad games they've been pretty predictable in terms of why. Soliai had essentially become a middle of the road space-eater.

    A 2-gap space eater is basically like a fullback. If you find a high quality one you should utilize them and hold on to them, but otherwise you can do without one. Your scheme shouldn't require one, and if you're going to spend resources on one it should be because they're special.
     
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  27. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    4 milli is extremely low for him. And I never said I'm sure Miami can financially afford him, I'm just saying teams like Seattle are paying big money for guys like Sherman, Thomas, Chancellor, Wright, Bennett and now Avril. They still have Wagner, that fast lil linebacker dude, and a franchise QB to sign. No way we have spent more than that and have that many big contracts coming up. That's my point, not that were rich, but that teams like Seattle are paying good money (probably anticipating a cap increase) to keep their guys and we should do the same.
     
  28. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Soliai is greedy and getting old. But the fact he signed for 35 milli, and mitchell signed for 16 milli, shows a very different opinion from yours from actual nfl people based on the facts of their actions.
     
  29. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, it really doesn't. Every year there are bad contracts, and Soliai compounds that because he's got an uncommon skillset that demands a premium. Atlanta committed to a 2-gap defense, and they had to find a guy in a very small pool who was capable of doing that. You have inflexible demands in terms of arm length, functional strength, and you've got to have technical skills to play the technique that aren't taught often in college.

    Miami isn't running a 2-gap defense, and you're in a position where a wide variety of skill-sets and body styles can get the job done just as well, and there is seemingly cheap guys every off-season who fill the role.
     
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  30. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Yea well our run d was great with Soliai and is pretty bad without him. Analyze that how you will. Schemes are schemes and are always debatable. Money in this league talks though.
     
  31. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Four million may seem low to you and it may not be what he is looking for as a free agent. That is just all I think he is worth based on his production since he has been with the Dolphins.

    I am sure some team will be dumb enough to sign him for a great deal more money than that. I just hope that team isn't the Dolphins. He just isn't worth more than 4 million a year IMO.
     
  32. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think there's a reason for that. I think you could very much make an argument that Paul Soliai would have been a better fit to take on the double teams that Mitchell is struggling with, but ultimately the problem is inappropriate defensive adjustment to a pretty common set of circumstances.
     
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  33. Tannedank

    Tannedank Banned

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    Which again all goes back to coaching which we suck at. Imo he is worth around 6 milli a year. I have a bunch of Ravens fans friends and they've told me Ozzie was pretty high on him coming out of Penn State. Something tells me a team like that would love to "overpay" for Jared Odrick. Just my 2 cents.
     
  34. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We have to have some more depth at DB especially in this day and age.

    Actually, as I sit here and think about this I feel like we have a lot of needs.
     
  35. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Before I cut anyone, I'd see if there was some sort of trade option.
     
  36. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You never overpay for average production. That's where you need to be making your money as a GM.

    (1) If Odrick wants big money, I'd be tempted to let him walk.

    We're all attached to him because we've watched him so much but honestly, he's little more than a solid player. Considering he's a 1st round pick, I'd like to see him have a more dominant presence. He's a great core player that I would prefer to keep, but realistically, his talent level and impact are not irreplaceable. He's borderline average. While it's very true that DT is a position that needs help, the Dolphins have made the mistake of keeping and overpaying players because they were scared of the alternative. I don't care if DT is a weak position, we don't need to overpay for a 43 DT with limited upside.

    (2) I can apply the same logic to Charles Clay.

    The injuries worry me as does his limited size. While Clay brings something to the table, the Dolphins have a clear lack of size at the TE position--a problem that Clay does not help solve. Again, the money had better be right because with his size in mind, Clay will never evolve into one of the league's top-5 TEs. Again, he's important to the team but not irreplaceable, particularly with the encouraging signs we've gotten from Dion Sims.

    (3) Release Ellerbe

    Solid player, bad contract

    (4) Trade Cameron Wake while he has value.

    He's 32 years old and he's begun to decline. I'd settle for any compensation that awarded the Dolphins a top-70 pick in 2015.

    (5) Trade Mike Wallace if the price is right.

    There are several things Wallace has going for him. Firstly, he's a elite deep threat and we will probably want that shortly down the road. Secondly, his TD numbers are up from last year. Thirdly, he's remained a team-player and has avoided the diva stuff we thought we'd have to live with. Lastly, he's only 28 so he's not "old" by any stretch. He's going to have more value than Cameron Wake for that reason as well as the fact he's an offensive weapon. I'd take a top-60 pick in 2015 because while he has skills and he's not over the hill yet, however he's too expensive for what he contributes.

    (6) I'd likely keep Hartline.

    The production is average and the numbers are down because he's too-often a late option or backside read in this offense but he's a proven to work well with Tannehill. With the possibility of a new outside WR to replace Gibson, Mathews and/or Wallace, Hartline appears to be a good transitional piece. He's not big money either.

    (7) I'd certainly keep Pouncey.

    He's coming off an injury that required surgery. He was rushed back and on top of that he's playing a different position in the process. He's remained committed and faithful to the team and to the current staff. He'll bounce back next year, particularly if he goes back to Center, which I think may happen. The off-the-field stuff doesn't bother me. Pouncey and his brother are both good kids and very good personalities within their respective locker-rooms.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I had to choose Clay or Odrick I would take clay.

    Put pouncey on a tag and see what he does for a year.

    Cut Ellerbe, Wheeler, Hartline, Wilson, unless hes just going to be special teams.

    Keep Wake of course..bad decision to trade.
     
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  38. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    honestly all of our unrestricted free agents can walk, they are all expendable.
     
  39. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    cutting Hartline saves $3.1 mil, but cutting him with the Jun 1 designation saves more, $5.9 mil...same with Ellerbe, let him go and you save $5.6 mil, but a jun 1 cut clears $8.45 mil with him, and cutting Wheeler saves virtually nothing, $200k, but a jun 1 cut clears $3 mil.

    so we could release these 3 and save just under 9 mil, or we could save over 17 mil. if we go with the latter option, the only downside is I don't think that 17 million would clear off the cap until Jun 1, which is well after the draft and free agency....BUT, all that money would be very helpful down the line when it comes time to carry it over.
     
  40. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't realize Hartline was that expensive. You're saying we owe him $6M if he stays?
     

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