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Redzone Problems

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Far be it from me to rain on anyone's parade, (it was awesome to see the team firing on all cylinders, all over the field!), however, one OFI that was very evident on Sunday is the Dolphin's struggles to finish the job in the red zone.

    3 huge turnovers occurred on separate occasions, providing the offense with truly great field position and yet on at least two occasions we had to settle for field goals.

    If the Dolphin's need any fuel for that desire to improve and win they have a good amount right there. Really good teams finish the job in the red zone and for T17, especially, this is something to focus on. When the pressure turns up in those last 10 yards he needs to increase the pressure himself to get over the top and get the ball into the endzone more often.

    That, for me, was one of the most notable issues on Sunday, and one where I want to see major improvement because in the past, for T17, the offense and especially the coaches, that killer instinct has been lacking and I think will come back to bite us in the butt again and again if it's not specifically dealt with.
     
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  2. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Holding calls hurt us this last week...never really hurt the Bears though...and they were holding a bit more than we were.

    But ya...it was disappointing to not hang 40 on them scrubs...could have.
     
  3. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    a receiving weapon with size would help. If Julius Thomas hits the market I'm breaking him off.
     
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  4. keithjackson

    keithjackson Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I respectfully disagree. Tannehill's been underrated in the redzone his whole career.

    So far he has a redzone quarterback rating of 111.9 this year, in 2013 it was 101.6, and even as a rookie it was 89. (I don't know if these stats were updated to reflect yesterday's game.)

    I would say our rushing game would be more likely to fumble, or Caleb Sturgis miss a chip shot, than Ryan throw an INT in the redzone. However, I do agree we need work as a whole in the redzone because we should be producing a lot more than we do.
     
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  5. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    I wonder if there's a site that shows their RZ performance compared to other teams? From a % of drives ending up in the RZ, and % of TDs per RZ trip. Guys like GB are going to be silly high, naturally, but I wonder where we'd fall in the 32.
     
  6. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Dolphins do not run the ball enough inside the red zone.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
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  7. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree but did not work out well against GB.
     
  8. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Losing Moreno hurt the short yardage/RZ running... Miller and Thomas both aren't very good at that. The penalties and lack of receiving size also hurts.
     
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  9. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Its been three games in a row now where the defense or special teams has given the offense great field position deep in enemy territory, and they've squandered it. We seem to get more holding penalties in close than the rest of the field combined, though I think that almost every single one of them is a penalty that would often not be called.
     
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  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think a lot of it is the type of offense. Just not good at power running.
     
  11. keithjackson

    keithjackson Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  12. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

  13. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Tannehill needs to play better. He has all of the tools and weapons needed to be a successful NFL QB. An 80s passer rating isn't going to get it done.

    There's a lot on his plate; I hope he's up to the challenge.
     
  14. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    The lack of a power game and the lack of a big ole target both hurt here a bit.

    I think a little bit more of misdirection/option and extended rollout type plays can help in this area. I dont have the stats to prove it but it seems like its worked well for us historically with Ryan. I guess the biggest problem is becoming too one dimensional or predictable in that regard.

    Reference to GB and that play where Rodgers just willed his man open in the endzone is a good example of what I'm talking about. On our side, there was a "levels" type play (VS the Raiders I think?) where Ryan rolled out, with Miller running towards the EZ, with another man in the EZ all moving right. Again, the problem is a good defensive read shuts it down - but I think those are the type of plays that we can exploit very well with some favorable matchups. Not sure how much of that falls on play calling or Ryan recognizing it pre snap.
     
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  15. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I think that you're right. I'd really like to see a read option play on first down in the Red Zone. I know Ryan hasn't kept it in that scenerio yet. I can't recall seeing much of it period.
     
  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's because we ran straight up the middle without an ounce of creativity involved.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm just not buying the whole size over quickness thing, i don't wanna throw jump balls to score, i wanna out quick and scheme you..of course if you find the perfect combination {Demaryious thomas} more power to you, but I'm not drafting a guy because he has size.

    give me a guy who can stop and start on a dime, run jerk routes for days, and we should be able to score.
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i forget who it was, but someone said lazor has issues making the right calls after a turnover..I noticed a lack of aggression it seemed, idk..thats tough to tell in terms of play calling., but ill say this, there hasn't been one rollout, deep pass, or bootleg after a turnover.just hasn't looked like attack mode.
     
  19. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Agree.. though a QB could have those great ratings in the redzone by being too conservative too. Did he leave some TDs on the field in order to avoid risking INTs? Was he the right amount of risk-averse in those situations? Too risk averse?

    I'm okay with Ryan in the redzone, personally.

    If anything, my only complaint would be that I want to see him run a bit more down near the goaline. That would make him even deadlier.
     
  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Having Hartline representing the left quarter or third of the field is a major problem. He flat out doesn't have the size, physicality, jump ball/contested ball ability to be a factor, and his specific receiver position is exactly WHERE this type of ability needs to be a factor since all the other spots seem to have become established. Wallace has his own role, and it fits his position in this offense well. Everyone else has their own defined roles that compliment each other nicely, as well as the offense as a whole. Clay moves the chains and picks up chunk yards but lacks the TE height needed to create mismatches over linebackers and safeties in the redzone. Landry is a sure-handed possession receiver who moves the chains and can sometimes go up and get a lob or fade. Miller moves the chains as an outlet back [and the running backs in general have more 1st down receptions than Hartline], and Wallace has actually been moving the chains quite well on his own [he's on pace for 53, which is how many Hartline had last year as the "chains mover"].

    The offense simply has enough chain movers between the 20's, and Landry has ALREADY surpassed Hartline in receptions, yards, avg, YPC, YAC, and 1st Downs. What this means is Hartline's skill set is now unnecessary. It's overkill. He doesn't compliment anything. He detracts. The offense doesn't need another "chain-mover". It doesn't need a guy with 3 redzone TDs the past 3 years. That's essentially 1 sideline eliminated every time Hartline steps foot on the field in the redzone, and there are only 2 sidelines so it's kind of a big deal. The offense needs a proper compliment to Wallace, Landry, Clay, Miller, and especially Tannehill..... and that compliment is a bigger and/or more physical, playmaking receiver who can offer us a specific situational matchup advantage that only a guy with his size and/or ability can provide.

    Football is all about being situational. Sometimes you need a receiver who can push for an extra yard to get a 1st down like Dez, Demaryius, Jordy, and a host of others can. That guy isn't Hartline. On 3rd & 10 or if a QB is under pressure and everyone is covered, it's an asset to have the option to throw a jump ball into single coverage, knowing the worst that will happen is an incompletion like AJ Green and 40+ other receiver in the NFL allow. Hartline isn't among that list either, as jump balls or under-throws to him get INT'd more than they get caught or broken up. Inside the opponent's 10 yard line, it's an asset to have a receiver who can go over a corner for a fade like 40+ receivers in the NFL can do. Hartline isn't on this list either. Inside the opponent's 5 yard line, it's an asset to have a big-bodied receiver with a large catch radius who can use his size and length to block out a corner like a power forward and catch the ball out in front of him and away from the corner's reach like Dez, Jordy, and dozens of other receivers can. Again, Hartline isn't on this list. Inside the 10, it's nice to have a receiver who can outmuscle a defender into the endzone like Dez, Jordy, and a slew of others are capable.... but again, not Hartline.

    Tannehill's passer rating to the right sideline [Wallace's spot] is 89.7 with 4 TDs/1 INT.
    His rating between the hashes [slot WR, TEs, backs] is 95.1 with 5 TD/2 INT.
    His rating to the left sideline [Hartline's spot] is 66.6 with 1 TD/2 INT.

    That's because Hartline requires perfect passes [unless they're low and to the inside or outside where he can go to the ground for them]. QBs make mistakes a lot more often than many of you realize who have become so conditioned to watching Hartline play; however, the reality is- "off target" throws don't kill other QBs around the league nearly as badly as they do Tannehill when Hartline is involved, and that's because so many other QBs have receivers who turn mistakes into receptions, into big plays and chunk yardage, and even into TDs. Conversely, any bad ball Tannehill throws to Hartline either gets picked off or ends up incomplete, and it frustratingly sticks out like a sore thumb to us, whereas Cowboy fans don't complain about a lob ball into tight coverage or an off-target throw Romo just made, and that's because they're too busy jumping for joy over the contested reception Dez or Williams just hauled in over their defender.

    Even if the 73 year old Steve Smith Sr were on the left sideline instead of Hartline, Tannehill's passer rating would easily reach 100.0+ to the left sideline simply because of the huge plays Steve makes that Hartline flat out cant, as well as the extra yards and TDs Steve is able to score AFTER the ball is in his hands, all of which directly impacts passer rating even though it's all accomplished on Steve's end rather than the QB's. Case in point, Flacco has a 97.2 rating this year, and ostensibly that would appear like Joe is having a night and day better passing season than Tannehill, but the truth is, it's Steve Smith who makes the difference. Flacco gets a major boost because he HAS Steve Smith, and Tannehill suffers because he DOESN'T.

    Flacco's passer rating to the right sideline [where Torrey Holt more frequently lines up] is 83.7 with 2 TD/1 INT and a measly 6.26 avg.
    Flacco's rating between the hashes is 93.3 with 3 TD/ 2 INT.


    So, thus far into the stat crunching, Tannehill is more productive between the hashes and to the right sideline than Flacco, combining for a 93.3 Rating with 9 TD/3 INT compared to Flacco's 90.2 with 5 TD/3 INT.

    So how can that be? How can Tannehill be superior to Flacco across the majority of the field yet have an overall 87.7 rating compared to Flacco's 97.2? Simple. It's because Flacco's passer rating to the left sideline where Steve Smith more frequently lines up is 135.9 with 7 TD/0 INT and a whopping 10.24 avg [4 yards more than Torrey's side], whereas Tannehill throwing to Hartline's left sideline is 66.6 with 1 TD/2 INT. Well, maybe Flacco just excels throwing to the left sideline you might say. Nope, 135.9 is 70.7 pts HIGHER than the 65.2 he had last year without Steve Smith. Plus, you only have to watch all the huge plays Steve has made on his end this year.

    So there you have it, if Tannehill had Steve Smith instead of Hartline, there's a good chance his 93.3 passer rating to the right sideline and between the hashes would be raised to roughly 100 overall instead of dropped to 87.7, just as Steve Smith raised Flacco's from 90.2 to 97.2. This has been a common theme with Hartline, and it's humorous that some posters have actually suggested it's Tannehill who is the one holding Hartline and the offense back when we now see it couldn't be further from the opposite, and this has dated back to Tannehill's rookie year where his rating to the right sideline [were Hartline spent most of his time] was 71.6, lowest of any direction on the field and obviously lower than his 78.1 rating everywhere else combined. The 82.5 to Hartline's left sideline last year was misleading because it included 5 TDs inside the redzone that weren't Hartline's. Removing those 5 TDs to gain a more accurate picture of throwing to Hartline's sideline, we're left with roughly a 68.8 rating, meanwhile, his rating everywhere else on the field was 86.1 [including those 5 non Hartline TDs].

    So 3 years running now we've got Tannehill's rating at:
    71.6 to Hartline's right sideline in 2012.. but 78.1 to everywhere else.
    68.6 to Hartline's left sideline in 2013.... but 86.1 to everywhere else.
    66.6 to Hartline's left sideline in 2014.... but 93.3 to everywhere else.

    So as you can see, Tannehill actually is improving noticeably each year. It just doesn't seem that way because so many passes have had to go Hartline's way as the team's default #1 WR in 2012 and default #2 WR last year. What ISN'T improving is Hartline's contribution to the passing game, and this deficiency is playing a big hand in preventing Tannehill & the offense from taking the next step. Now that Miami has enough bodies who can move the chains, the offense and Tannehill need a compliment to those bodies, a guy who can situationally do the things the others can't. Obviously we can't afford another high-priced FA receiver, so we'll have to turn to the draft..... and the name that immediately jumps out at me and a personal favorite of CK's is West Virginia's Kevin White.... or perhaps our GM goes with a TE/WR hybrid like Michigan's Devin Funchess since Tannehill seems to do so well in 2 TE sets. At the moment, one of these two would be my highest priority because the offense is clearly missing a key piece that's preventing it from maximizing production, and in Lazor's offense which has the potential for big production, this missing piece desperately needs to be addressed.
     
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  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    To further example the above post, look at Aaron Rodgers.
    From 2011-13, Aaron's passer rating to Jordy was 143.9 [#1 in NFL] with an insane 12.0 avg, 26 TD, 3 INT, 70.5%, and 2683 yards.
    Aaron's rating to everyone else was 106.5 with a 7.8 avg, 75 TD, 17 INT, 66.9%, and 8791 yards.

    Rodgers is obviously elite regardless, but a 37.4 point differential is pretty extreme. Not to mention he's had a strong cast besides Jordy. Overall, Jordy's presence increased Aaron's passer rating by 6.2 points, and it would've been even more had Jordy not missed 13 games in 2011-12 and Rodgers hadn't missed 7 games last year when Nelson was healthy all season.

    Tony Romo's rating the past 3 years: 96.1.
    Romo's rating to Dez: 112.0.
    *** The 96.1 includes Dez's 112.0, so that's probably a tick under 90 to everyone not named Dez.

    Matt Ryan's rating the past 3 years: 93.6.
    Matt Ryan's rating to Julio Jones: 108.7.
    *** The 93.6 includes Julio's 108.7, so it's probably closer to Tannehill's 87.7 range to everyone else.

    Stafford's rating the past 3 years: 86.9
    Stafford's rating to the constantly double-teamed Calvin Johnson: 99.9
    *** The 86.9 includes Calvin's 99.9, so it's probably closer to 80 to everyone else.
     
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  22. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    That makes good sense, but those guys are so rare. And getting one who isn't a head case like Bryant or Marshall is even rarer.
     
  23. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Size doesn't just help for jump balls... but also helps the WR wall off the defender for the back shoulder throw or the simple comeback route to the pylon.

    In the RZ, there is just less room to operate. It's harder to create space and the windows are tighter. Big targets can still come up with the catch even in a tight window b/c of that physical advantage.
     
  24. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

    We are #20. Not the worst but still we are in lower portion of the league. Judging from just TD% is kind of deceptive, Oakland is in the top 5 and Philadelphia is #32...obviously Philly's offense is lightyears better than Oaklands.
     
  25. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Are you just taking into account throws to each sideline or where the WRs actually lined up? Watching the game Sunday, the players were lined up all over the place. Nice thing about this offense is the WRs move all over the place. The 2012 study is great as we know exactly where our WRs were lining every. single. time. One of the major issues with Mike Sherman's scheme.

    But I agree, Brian Hartline has very little business being on the field in the redzone, specifically when we're inside the 5 in passing situations.

    In regards to the overall argument -

    I think we run the ball well in the redzone. Most people are going to immediately think about the goal line stand against the Packers, but other than that, we've been able to get yardage on the ground. Now, do we run it enough? That's the question I think someone posed earlier, maybe it was Disgustipate or Stringer, can't remember.

    When we do run it though, we're successful. I think Ryan Tannehill could do more with a QB Draw when we spread the field. We even saw the QB Power run I have been asking for in Chicago. Tannehill just slipped, but it was there for 5-6 yards.

    As it relates to passing, I agree with many that have suggested it - Todd and others - we need some size. I'd be much more interested in seeing Rishard Matthews in that situation and allowing him the opportunity to win a battle. I don't think we use Clay enough in the those tight areas. Once again, he was lined up on an LB, McClellin, on Sunday, and ran a corner route and just owned him. When Clay runs that route from the slot, he's open almost every time. We've started to get guys like Lamar Miller involved too which I think we should continue to do. A mixture of using our slot guys, Landry & Clay, mixing in our RBs, and giving Matthews a shot on the outside.

    Either way, I agree that Hartline needs to be off the field in those situations. Unfortunately with his contract and from things Tannehill has said about needing to get him involved more, I don't see it happening.
     
  26. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A couple scores were negated this year through holding calls as well, though I believe that happened in games where we already had a multiple possession lead.
     
  27. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    A part of the problem is that we have been playing musical linemen in the offensive line.There has been no continuity where you could say the OL has gelled.

    This will improve as the the season progresses IMO.:yes:
     
  28. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    There was a Hartline penalty that negated a Lamar Miller TD. The intentional ground was unfortunate but they were still well in Field Goal range.

    What bugged me is their last drive of the game where they had the ball at the one yard line on 3rd down. The Colour guy, Trent Green, echoed my sentiment that a 10 point lead and a 13 point lead isn't that much different. 2 TDs still win. If you score you win, if you don't score on 4th they have to go 99 yards in 2 minutes then get the ball back and get into FG range.

    What they should not have done is PASS THE BALL!!!! luckily it was incomplete and they kicked the FG. (I would have gone for it on 4th).

    Then we have our Special teams do what they do and allow a big return AND a penalty! Then Cutler moves the ball into the Red Zone and we need Cortland Finnegan to own B-Marsh on 4th down.

    Just an uneasy way to end a pretty nice game.
     
  29. speed

    speed Banned

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    Naked bootlegs would be deadly.

    Great post Toddphin!
     
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  30. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That is for sure but twice during the Bears game RT17 could have run it in for 6 inside the RZ. Not nitpicking but we have to score 6 when we are there and teams like GBP will not be able to break our hearts in last few seconds no matter how many blunders Philbin makes....he could never survive in college ball.. I want more style points..lol
     
  31. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    @ToddPhins. You present an impressive argument. I would agree that a different starting receiver on the left probably improves the productivity of our offense. It would help in the red zone, but I disagree with your conclusion that this is our problem in the red zone.

    The players on offense are not executing in the red zone. There are too many penalties. There are too many missed assignments. There are too many examples of a defensive player overpowering or beating an offensive lineman to the mark. I believe the penalties are related to a lack of confidence. Especially the false starts. Hartline's offensive interference penalty is an example of timing and comfort with the new offense.

    I am hopeful the offense will overcome the confidence issues with another two to four weeks within the new offense. I am still concerned about this poor aspect of team performance, but I am hopeful it can be solved.
     
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  32. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

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    I do remember the Dolphins got another blocked punt against the Packers early in the game and had the ball in the red zone and they went for it on 4th netting zero points. 3 points would have been useful at the end of that game.
     
  33. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great post Todd on Hartline...a big problem that we have had for along time...we have nothing but slot receivers and they do play well most of the time but we do need size & Speed on the outside....at least one..especially in the RZ..why have we not tried Williams in the #2 spot? Also we do need to play Matthews much more than Hartline for production's sake.
     
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  34. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    77FinFan and Unlucky 13 like this.
  35. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I think because we've paid these guys a lot of money, we're overrating our receiving corps. Wallace is a stud (but overpaid). Hartline is overpaid. Matthews was a 7th rounder who doesn't play much. Gibson is consistently injured. Landry has high usage but limited production. Clay was a 7th rounder but is a solid playmaker.

    We vastly overrate our receiving threats.
     
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  36. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    exactly, like the guy on here who said they were top 5 in the league, lol please....if I'm the GM I'm cutting Hartline and Gibson, letting Damian Williams walk, targeting an upgrade over Clay in FA like Julius Thomas or bringing back Clay on the cheap but also rolling the dice on potential by signing Virgil Green who shouldn't be expensive at all, and I'm adding another WR with some size in the draft, something we should have done this year (Martavis Bryant would be nice).
     
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  37. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think Julius Thomas even sniffs the market. I'm with you on everything else. We need a player that be a receiving and return threat. This draft is not the greatest for TE's unless you're going to put Devin Funchess there, draftniks have him going anywhere from 1-20.
     
  38. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    you live in this weird fantasy world where you think if you just snap your fingers everything you want to happen happens. It's kind of odd how far removed from reality you are given your constant pessimism.
     
  39. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    I think in general QBR's are higher this year as is Tannehill's 88 QBR is better than last year's 82. I think a consistant 88 QBR is enough to get us in the playoffs but is 223 passing yards per game enough currently 22nd in the league enough? I think if the run game is working and D continue to work then we're good. As for our low QBR to the right side, I think that's Harlines position, but he lines up on the left a lot and Wallace and Clay line up on the right a lot. What will keep us out of the playoffs in order of our weaknesses are Tannehill holding the ball too long or taking sacks, ST (Fields punting, Sturgis FG, and ST coverage), and coaching
     
  40. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    Seattle averaged 209 passing yards per game last season and won the Super Bowl.
     

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