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So Kelvin Benjamin...

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Xeticus, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I was looking at draft prospects and this guy really stood out to me. His size, his reach, his athletic ability. This guy looks like he is going to be a freak in the NFL. And he is supposedly a good blocker. I know we are probably going to grab a tackle in the 1st round but man this rookie be something special and put up lots of points for us. What do you guys think?
     
  2. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Well, he's big.
     
  3. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The problem is that you could say the same things about Ernest Wilford. I'm by no means equating the two, and there is a lot to like about Benjamin, but he comes with one big weakness imo- a lack of burst, explosiveness. He also dropped quite a few balls, but I'll put that aside for now. Benjamin has pretty good straight line speed, outstanding size, aggressiveness and ability to go up and fight for balls, make plays, but can he separate in the pros? I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure that he's a better prospect than Cody Latimer from Indiana, who ran a 4.38 at his pro day at 6-13 215 lbs.

    If you want a big receiver with burst and the ability to separate, two come to mind- Allen Robinson and Martavis Bryant. Robinson isn't the fastest guy but he has a burst ans separation ability, Bryant is a HIGHLY intriguing prospect with that Julio Jones/AJ Green size, solid speed and a burst to separate. He's one to watch.
     
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  4. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with this. Benjamin just doesnt get out of his breaks well, looks like hes cutting in quick sand out there. Allen Robinson is far superior, he's probably my #3 WR. Bryant is VERY intriguing. I would take Bryant over Benjamin straight up thats for sure, and I think Bryant will probably get drafted later.
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Hah. Nice April Fools joke.
     
  6. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I love Kelvin Benjamin. Great hands, no problems with drops. Really comes back to the ball and fights for it, ie doesn't let defenders get into his body and knock the ball down. Super consistent, never saw him rack up tons of catches in one game and then only a few in another. Don't get me started on his brilliant run after the catch skills.
     
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  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    plus he rescued all those toddlers from that burning orphanage he was doing community work for.
     
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  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Kelvin Benjamin to me is the definition of a role player at the next level. There's too much Roberto Wallace in there for me to feel comfortable predicting that he will produce consistent separation against man coverage, which really has to be the basis of support for any wide receiver at the NFL level. A lot of his catches seem to me to come in soft zones that are generally the result of his quarterback's abilities rather than his own.

    He's fairly balanced but he's not quick, and you can only make so much of a living going for physically contested jump balls over and over again when faced with tight man coverage. I'm reminded of Jeff Fuller as well, and that was another guy that at one time got too much hype because of his size and ability to pull down physically contested balls.

    There's a point at which I'd be interested in Kelvin Benjamin for what he can do in the red zone, which I think has a shot at being consistently replicable, but there are at least 14 other wide receivers in this draft that would have to be off the board before I would think about it, including the likes of Devin Street, Jordan Matthews, Paul Richardson, Jeremy Gallon, Robert Herron, Bruce Ellington, Davante Adams, Donte Moncrief, etc.

    And yeah, I'll equate Kelvin Benjamin and Ernest Wilford. I'm not terribly afraid to do so. I remember back when Brandon Coleman was the hot ticket heading into the year because of his size, I used to look at he and Kelvin Benjamin and I thought Benjamin just looked like he had a more sound football body and football movement abilities, but that he also kind of has an Ernest Wilford look to him at the same time. I'm not sure I ever came off that view of him.
     
  9. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'm laughing because I just watched his Florida game and I'm assuming you're taking the piss. To me, his best skill is height, followed by bulk.

    Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    [​IMG]

    I must be the only one who didn't realize Greg was joking.
     
  11. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I had considered putting /April Fools on there, but wanted to keep it subtle. Maybe a little too subtle...

    For the purposes of this thread, I've been a Benjamin detractor for a while now, here's a write-up from 12/20 posted on here:

    I cut this video of his drops/ hands issues a while back for those who don't know what I'm talking about with his hands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3llpin2PFv4
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Will Benjamin be another Mike Williams [USC] or a rich man's version of Malcom Floyd? He could potentially have an outstanding career in Minnesota with Norv Turner.
     
  13. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    So you ended up looking at him finally? :yes:

    Thoughts?
     
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  14. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Thanks CK. I just took a look at this kid and started having Orende Gadsden flashbacks, imagining him jumping over 3 guys and coming down with the ball in the red zone.

    So who would be good targets for the Dolphins in the 2nd and rounds? Because I really think our receiving corps can be upgraded.
     
  15. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This will probably be unpopular but I do like a lot of things about Kelvin Benjamin. Maybe not for the Miami Dolphins at pick 19 but I liken him more to Plaxico Burress or an Anquan Boldin (who Benjamin is a big fan of) then Ernest Wilford. I find it funny that every time theres a debate about a tall WR some equate him to Ernest Wilford. I have to really question the validity of that because aside from being tall they really share nothing in common. People werent even sure if Wilford was a WR or TE if you remember. Wilford ran in a 4.79, Benjamin a 4.61. Benjamin does a better job using his body and while he may have some questions about his hands thats where the Burress comparison comes in for me though it helps that they come in very similar on a lot of different measureables, a few of which Ive laid out below. Very similar playing styles, criticisms and strengths imo. In college both left you wanting just a bit more especially in the consistency department. Would I take Benjamin at 19? Im not sure I would because we have many other pressing needs. But if Im a team like New England Id take him in the late 1st. If hes sitting at pick 40 would I jump up a few spots for him? you betcha.

    Plaxico Buress came in at the following measurements: http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=4734
    40: 4.59
    6'6"
    231
    33" vertical
    115" broad jump (thats 9 feet 7 inches)

    Benjamin: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/kelvin-benjamin?id=2543471
    40: 4.61
    Vertical: 32.5"
    Broad Jump: 119" (9feet 11inches)
    Height: 6'5"
    Weight: 240
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes. It's truly amazing that a person that is literally almost a foot shorter than Kelvin Benjamin can be just as good as him (and I'm not speaking in hyperbole) at finishing physically contested catches. But that's the part of Gallon's game that truly stands out.

    Here's what I have in my files where I keep commentary on the players to remind myself about them.

     
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  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Among wide receivers?

    I think if the Dolphins get a crack at Allen Robinson in the 2nd round they should go for that. But there are several players at different positions that I feel that way about so it's not an easy thing.

    I don't think they'll get a shot at Odell Beckham in the 2nd round but if they do, I'm cool with pulling that trigger as well.

    In the 3rd round they need to start thinking hard about Bruce Ellington, Robert Herron or Donte Moncrief. I would pull the trigger on Davante Adams there as well but I don't think he'll be available.

    Later on I think you start to look at a Jeremy Gallon, Devin Street, L'Damian Washington or Quincy Enunwa.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    By the way an Ernest Wilford comparison for Kelvin Benjamin is a lot more apt than an Anquan Boldin comparison, IMO.
     
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  19. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I don't think either are close.
     
  20. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I like the Plaxico comparison best case ofcourse. Boldin? Don't see it.

    Maybe he will grow up to be Kelvin Benjamin.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Whether you make a Plaxico Burress comparison or a Ernest Wilford comparison purely depends on your outlook for the player himself.

    But fine if folks aren't comfortable with Wilford then take Jeff Fuller.
     
  22. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree; Kelvin Benjamin = Ernest Wilford.
     
  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    But when a guy is that tall with arms that long, and hands that big, even when he is covered he is open, so to speak.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Not really, IMO. The physically contested catch is just a small part of an NFL passing game. And it doesn't happen as often as you think, even against smaller corner. Think about Brent Grimes and his leaping ability. Even Kelvin Benjamin in college couldn't consistently come down with the physically contested catches.
     
  25. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    sounds a lot like...Alshon Jeffrey, all over again. Thoughts ?
     
  26. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    That's the flip side, and a good point. I thought that Jeffrey would have problems separating in the pros- he's certainly producing for the Bears. Top end size, positioning and fighting for the ball- Brandon Marshall has better separation ability imo, but Jeffrey is getting it done.

    The thing is, similar size doesn't mean that Benjamin will follow Jeffrey's path to success. Jason Taylor= undersized DE who could handle most OTs at the LOS. Dion Jordan- not so much. Similar size but different results in that regard, so far. These are all just opinion, and mine is that Benjamin might turn out to be an uber possession receiver/deep zone threat, but his lack of separation ability concerns me quite a bit.
     
  27. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    The flip side to this is, Benjamin has only had 2 years at FSU. Who is to say he wont get better, in terms of feet and route running? From year one to two with the Noles there were massive improvements.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    We ain't seen enough of Jordan yet for that to be a good example. Taylor didn't look like a future Pro Bowl player after his rookie season either, even though he played a lot more than Jordan.
     
  29. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    That's a fair point, but I'm biased in that I clearly see Jordan as an OLB and not a DE. It's not a straight up height/weight thing, he's strong. But his high center of gravity, struggles with OTs at the LOS going back to college and utterly remarkable talent to operate in space for a man of his size make me think OLB all the way.
     
  30. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'm not a fan of looking at numbers on paper and making comparisons.

    Noel Devine should have been Darren Sproles. I'd say Kory Sheets but he broke out of the CFL and Oakland is giving him a shot.

    Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk
     
  31. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Jeffery is only apt IMO, if you compare 230 pound Jeffery to Benjamin. He had that body issue that limited him but he got over it, got faster, and was a much better prospect to me.

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  32. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Jeffery surprised me. I though that he was a reach for the Bears in the 2nd rd because of his lack of burst, but he's certainly having a good career so far.
     
  33. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    But Kelvin is not slow.
     
  34. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    In this day and age, 4.6's are tight end 40's. He's slow. Hartline is a 4.5 guy.

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  35. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Rishard Matthews ran a slower time at 4 inches shorter and 25 pounds lighter.
    Kendall Wright ran slower at 7 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter.
    Antonio Brown ran about the same time at 7 inches shorter and 54 pounds lighter.
    Riley Cooper about the same at 3 inches shorter and 18 pounds lighter.
    Eric Decker about the same at 2 inches shorter and 26 pounds lighter.
    Dexter McCluster about the same at 9 inches shorter and 70 pounds lighter.
    Mike Williams(of the Bills now) about the same at 3 inches shorter and 28 pounds lighter.
    Steve Johnson about the same at 3 inches shorter and 33 pounds lighter.
    Mario Manningham about the same at 5 inches shorter and 55 pounds lighter.
    James Jones about the same at 4 inches shorter and 32 pounds lighter.
    Brandon Marshall ran slightly faster at a half inch shorter and 11 pounds lighter.
    DeAndre Hopkins about the same at 4 inches and 12 pounds lighter.
    Kenbrell Thompkins about the same at 4 inches shorter and 45 pounds lighter.



    In short, if you consider KB slow, then all those guys are slow as well. And KB is much better then majority of them, and is bigger then all of them. He is not slow.
     
  36. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy Graham hasnt looked to slow split out so far in his NFL career...
     
  37. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Sort of. Jeffery ran 4.4 though, and you can see on the field that he has that higher gear and that he really learned how to use it. Benjamin doesn't have that, imo. With Jeffery the question was more separation throughout the route tree, imo, because he was a long strider. He was good going vertically, but could he do enough with quickness on other routes. Chicago used him really well, some screens to take advantage of his plant-and-drive accelerarion into that high gear, but mostly vertical things. This last year Alshon also started playing more physically than his lanky frame suggests; while Benjamin doesn't play quicker than his size suggests.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The problem with Kelvin Benjamin athletically is that he's faster than he is quick, as opposed to guys who are quicker than fast. The latter is what you are usually working with when we're talking about a slow player.

    If the guy is a 4.6 runner then usually you watch him and he's getting open because he changes directions and accelerates well but then tops out, lacks a fifth gear. Many of the players Nappy named fit that description.

    Kelvin Benjamin is a guy that is a powerful, long strider. He actually starts to look more respectable when you get him on the hoof in a straight line. That's when you really start to appreciate the fact that he's 6'5" and 240 lbs. But he's faster than he is quick. When you watch him running his routes against man coverage, he's really not creating separation. Everything turns into a physically challenged catch and I don't care how big you are, you can't make a living with those being a high percentage of your catches. Physically challenged catches are still low percentage. They have to be BIG plays to make the low percentage worth it.

    When I watch him play I'm reminded a bit of Roberto Wallace in that Benjamin seems to do his best work in space working between zones with defenders intentionally not trying to stay in his hip pocket. He can find the soft spots and run his routes precise enough to catch the football. But in the NFL you're not going to see that a ton, if you want to be a starter you have to be able to consistently produce separation.
     
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  39. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    No I agree. Listen, I am a Noles fan. I wouldn't draft him in the first round. I simply played the "40 time shows how fast you are" scenario because that is what was thrown at me. He isn't all that quick. He is raw. He came into FSU as very raw, and only spent 2 years there. He has got to get a lot better with his footwork and hes got to be a lot more consistent catching the non contested balls. If he can do those things, I think he will be a Marques Colston type. If he doesn't, he could end up being Mike Williams(of USC). and he can be anywhere in between.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I consider Kelvin Benjamin to be a compelling tight end prospect. Some of the best plays he's made all year have come over the middle working the field exactly how an unattached tight end would work the middle of the field. Huge plays against Duke and Florida come to mind. Those were tight end plays. Hell sometimes against Florida they even motioned him to the backfield like a tight end blocker on run plays.

    There was a reason FSU constantly hid Benjamin from press and other tight coverage. They took him off the line constantly. They hid him in stacked formations. They knew they needed him to be able to operate with some space. I think you could mitigate some of that if you teach him to block (he's not very good at that right now) and worked him more explicitly over the middle like a tight end against linebackers and safeties.
     

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