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Potential 2014 Defensive Lineup

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by RoninFin4, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This thread is the result of thinking about Disgustipate's thread about how Miami currently uses Dion Jordan, Olivier Vernon and Cameron Wake, and some ideas that Todd (phinsational for those not hip to that) and I were discussing in either the Draft or Club Forum, I can't remember which. As most of you know, I'm a proponent of cleaning house this offseason and I think that a shift back to the 3-4 defense would be the most effective way to utilize Jordan, Vernon and Wake. I'll skip delving into further detail with that, so let's assume Miami gets the 6th seed and the staff is retained, bully for them :shifty:. For the record, I still think Ireland gets canned pretty much any way you slice this season ending up, barring a Super Bowl victory - highly unlikely, in my opinion. So let's say a new GM or VP of Football Operations comes in or Miami moves Brian Gaine to work with Philbin and Kevin Coyle as GM in assembling the team gearing up for 2014. I'll save the offensive side for another day.

    Well, we know that Miami's got 5 guys who started last week's game against the Jets slated to be free agents, they are: Nolan Carroll, Chris Clemons, Brent Grimes, Paul Soliai and Randy Starks. You've also got Dimitri Patterson slated to have a pretty hefty cap number relative to the amount of games he's actually played in this year, and I think that you could potentially be looking to rid yourself of a contract on defense to free up cap space for other uses - whether that's re-signing current free agents or going after a big name, whatever the case may be - I'll touch on this later.

    I think one option that Kevin Coyle would do well to explore would be to revert somewhat to the scheme that Miami ran in 2012, but with some new wrinkles. If you watched the Seattle vs. New Orleans game; and Todd has hypothesized this in at least one thread that I know of, why couldn't Miami run a defense similar to what Seattle runs? Miami, I believe is currently 2nd in the NFL in opponent's pass-rating allowed, trailing only those same Seahawks; and I think the scheme Miami currently employs draws from some of what Seattle does. I'll touch on this now.

    Seattle's defense is a 4-3 derived scheme, but they make keen use of 3-4 personnel; much like Miami did in 2012. They have an athletic, physical secondary to enforce passing lanes behind their vaunted front seven. The positions they employ (if you read my 2012 thread in Club from just before OTAs, you'll recognize this):

    Leo - Their best pass-rusher who operates from either side of the defense; a hybrid DE/OLB. They use Chris Clemons in this capacity.

    3-techinque DT - A stout defensive tackle who can supply pass-rush and stop the run. They've shifted philosophies a bit after they lost the massive Alan Branch to Buffalo in free agency. They replaced him with Tony McDaniel, remember him?

    1-technique NT - The best run-defender capable of playing as both a 1 gap and 2 gap player. This is Brandon Mebane, who is excellent.

    4/5 - technique DE - Seattle uses the very big, very athletic Red Bryant in this role. He's capable of playing head-up on an OT, or in a true 5-technique.

    Will LB - Their most athletic LB, capable of playing the run and pass equally well. Seattle has shifted K.J. Wright to this spot, and he runs pretty big as far as Will backers go, at 6'4" and about 245 - 250lbs. He's also pretty athletic, if you recall he was 1-on-1 with Jimmy Graham last night.

    Mike LB - Pretty standard across all defensive schemes. They use Bobby Wagner.

    Sam LB - This is another shift, as a year ago K.J. Wright played here. They've since moved Bruce Irvin from being a 3rd DE to this Sam LB spot. There was a quote out there earlier this year in which Irvin said something along the lines of, "It saved my career". I'm not sure about that, but it opened up the door for him to be a starter rather than a rotational player.

    Shift back to Miami entering 2014. Given what we know about Joe Philbin being keen on limiting opponent's pass-rating and Kevin Coyle's background as a defensive backs coach, I'll assume that Miami's going to place a higher priority on re-signing Chris Clemons and Brent Grimes than they are over Randy Starks and Paul Soliai. Personally, after re-watching several games, and I think Anonymous suggested this in a thread as well, I'd tend to go along with that assumption if you can swing the price. I wouldn't want to franchise Brent Grimes; that's a $10MM hit, but I think you could franchise Chris Clemons as the tag for a safety is the second lowest of any position, and re-sign Grimes, maybe re-sign both. Let's assume Miami does that and lops Dimitri Patterson's contract off the books.

    Plugging in several things that Todd has suggested, and looking at what Miami has, here's how I think you can start to fit pieces into that defensive look. As it is this year, I think Miami overestimated Olivier Vernon's ability to play the run, and underestimated his ability to make hustle plays and rush the passer. They've sort of robbed Peter (Cameron Wake) to pay Paul (OV) in this case. As Disgustipate pointed out in week's 1 and 2 we saw OV playing how Miami had Jared Odrick lined up in 2012, and OV got his *** handed to him by Joe Thomas (not out of the ordinary for most DEs), and Anthony Castonzo (that shouldn't happen). Miami has since shifted Cameron Wake's alignment to more of a closed DE and moved OV out wide, since Wake's returned from injury. And I think that's the main reason why OV has blossomed, and it's worked because Cameron Wake is just that damn good. But, if you look at most of OV's sacks, he doesn't have many (I can think of 1 against D.J. Fluker) plays where he's simply won a 1-on-1 battle and provided primary pressure. He's more often than not the second or third guy there to clean up the mess while others set the table. We've seen this with Philip Wheeler a few times, as recent as the first play of the game this past weekend; Cameron Wake and Dion Jordan have also set the table for him. Let's be honest, Cameron Wake is the best pure pass-rusher Miami has; he'd be the Leo in this defensive look.

    Going down the current setup, you have Jared Odrick who can play either the 3-technique DT spot or the 5-technique DE spot. I think we've clearly seen this year that he's better on the interior of the defense, and since Randy Starks isn't being re-signed in this scenario, let's post Odrick there.

    At the 1-technique NT spot, you have Paul Soliai, but I think his play has dropped off to the point that I wouldn't want to bring him back at the dollar he's going to command. You'd be doing a disservice to yourself penciling in A.J. Francis as a starter, but he's certainly a guy I think you could have as a spot sub at this spot. So, let's mark this spot down as a "Need", a big one at that. :shifty:

    At the 5-technique spot, Miami has Olivier Vernon, and that's it. Such is life with the way this roster is setup. Sigh. I think we've seen that OV is better served playing as a 6 or 7 technique DE (outside the OT). With the way that Seattle's defense is setup, and with how Kevin Coyle played it in 2012, I don't think this is OV's best spot, so let's mark this as a "Need" as well. There is, however, a crucial role for OV that I will touch on later. Derrick Shelby's played this some this year, but it's been spotty at best.

    Moving to the LB spots, while Dannell Ellerbe has been a disappointment, for better or worse, he's going to be on the roster next year as you can't swallow his cap hit if you cut or trade him. But, I think we've seen some improvement in recent weeks and there's something to work with, with him.

    Now, for the main wrinkle, and I know MrClean, DJ, Todd, and several others will like this. I think the best maneuver Miami can make in this scheme is to copy what Seattle did with Bruce Irvin and make Dion Jordan a Sam LB. Watching Seattle, they play Irvin on the line in a 2-pt stance (like a 3-4 OLB), off the line in a 2-pt stance (standard 4-3 Sam LB) and as a DE with his hand(s) in the dirt on occasion. As Pandarilla pointed out way back before the New England game, Dion Jordan can cover, and he's show the propensity to stick with guys like Rob Gronkowski and Antonio Gates. Impressive. I'll point out one other thing that really impressed me. Go back to the final play of the Cincinnati game where Wake sacked Andy Dalton for the safety. Dion Jordan was lined up as a nickel LB inside the far hash on the play, at about the 10 yard line. By the time Andy Dalton hit the ground, Dion Jordan was near the 25 yard-line in 1-on-1 coverage against Mohamed Sanu, who had run a wheel route on the play. That's freakish athletcism. Re-watch the play and see how quickly Jordan eats up that ground to stay in Sanu's hip pocket, and with the natural size advantage, eliminated that throw if Wake hadn't already gotten to Dalton. He's your Sam LB who can rush the passer, play the run, all while doing it on the line, off the line, as a stand-up guy (which he's said he prefers on multiple occasions) or as a DE with his hands on the ground.

    At Will LB, this is where the rubber meets the road. I think you pit Koa Misi and Philip Wheeler in a battle for this spot, and you lop off the roster whoever loses this battle to save cap space. Personally, I don't think Philip Wheeler is really a good fit for this spot, and if you take Kevin Coyle's mentions of Koa Misi at face value, and Joe Philbin's for that matter, they both seem to love Misi. He's bigger than Wheeler at 6'3" 255lbs, and is the better player against the run. Miami's already taken to using him off the line and less as an edge player, so I don't think it's far-fetched to see him taking to this role better than Wheeler. He's got the size to to mitigate some of what you lose, for now, with Dion Jordan being an edge guy against the run even though I think he's an underrated run defender. Jelani Jenkins is your top backup here, and if you want to keep Misi as a 2-down LB, Jenkins is your guy that will come onto the field to be a coverage LB.

    Looking at some of the other spots, I think clearly Brent Grimes, if re-signed, is one of the corners. I've cut Dimitri Patterson to save cap in this scenario, so I think it comes down to Jamar Taylor in a competition with Will Davis, or Nolan Carroll if you can re-sign him. My money would be on Jamar Taylor over either Carroll and Davis, and if that plays out, you can still play Carroll in nickel and sub packages and move Taylor to cover the slot instead of Jimmy Wilson. For the record, Wilson has really improved, but I think you could get more out of Jamar Taylor based on what I've seen of him at Boise State - he was a pretty good blitzer from the slot.

    Reshad Jones is pretty much locked in, and I think a commitment to this scheme sees him have a season more akin to what he had in 2012 as opposed to this year, though he's been coming on as of late. He's your in-the-box safety; the Earl Thomas who can freelance and act as an extra box-defender to help with Dion Jordan when Miami utilizes "Eagle" looks (I'll try and scan that tomorrow at work and add it to this thread just for reference).

    In my scenario, I've re-signed Chris Clemons. He's been the most consistent secondary player this year in my opinion and should be re-signed. He's your deep, centerfielder type player like how Seattle uses Kam Chancellor (who is very intimidating with his size and hitting abilities). While Clemons isn't that type of dooming hitter, he's packed a punch and shows more prowess in coverage than Chancellor IMO, and he's been put in some bad spots this year because of Jones' having to play differently than last year. Another aspect I think that is overlooked is that Clemons is the communicator. If he's not back, I'm not sure who you're trusting to do that. Do you really want a rookie like HaHa Clinton-Dix or Lemarcus Joyner doing that? Clemons is probably the best of the litter in terms of free agents anyway, and he's an in-house candidate, why lose him?

    Back to Olivier Vernon's role. He's too good to not use regularly, but I'm not sure he's got a niche in the base package in the Seattle type defense. He's not athletic enough to be a LB, and he's probably suited to play where Cameron Wake plays...but you've got Cameron Wake. Miami could use him like Cincinnati used Jonathan Fanene when Coyle was there in 2011 (now how they use Wallace Gilberry after Coyle came here) and how Seattle uses Michael Bennett. As far back as the Tampa Bay game, we've seen Vernon lined up on the interior pass-rushing over guards (something CK hammered about since he was drafted), on the edge as a DE, and as a stand-up guy. I've not been too fond of Kevin Coyle's scheme, but one thing I think he's done very well is nickel and other sub-packages (see, I don't have jet black hate for the staff in my heart). He's already used OV in capacities like this and Seattle uses a package they call "Jet Ends". In the past they've used Clemons and Irvin as these wide guys. No, these are not Wide-9 DEs, they're simply the two outside ends, but both play on the outside edge of the OT, or TE if there is one, to their side in either 5 or 7 techniques and rush the passer. We've seen Vernon do well rushing from the outside this year - he's really improved at this from last year to this year - AND, the bonus is, you're going to be using him in this capacity a LOT naturally anyway with the amount of times Miami's played nickel. Not only can he do that but it allows you to get all three players in Jordan, Vernon, and Wake on the field, quite a bit, at the same time - which is the goal, IMO for taking Miami's defense to top 10/top 5 level.

    This scheme also allows you to find spots for Derrick Shelby to be a sub player. I think the workload he's been given this year has been too much for him, and a reduced role as a spot sub would serve him well.

    So, in this scenario, we've re-signed Clemons and Grimes...let's assume Nolan Carroll too for competition/depth purposes in an effort to replace Dimitri Patterson and compete with Jamar Taylor. We've moved Dion Jordan to a full-time starters role which allows him to be on the field all 3 downs while keep Wake on the field and still finding an economic way to use Koa Misi efficiently. We've lopped Philip Wheeler's contract off the roster with a relatively palatable cap hit. We've also given Olivier Vernon a role that's more efficient for him and the defense as a whole, especially in base packages. So, what does Miami need?

    Well, ideally, I'd like to see a 3-4 defense, and this is pretty close, but you've still got to make an investment along the defensive front. I don't think Derrick Shelby is your starter at that 5-technique DE spot, nor do I think A.J. Francis is your starter at the 1-technique NT spot. So you've got to invest there. But, there's quite a few free agents to be that fit those spots:

    Edit: I'm adding Lamarr Houston into this spot. He's going to be a big $ free agent, but I think he's worth it. He's stout, at 6'3" 300lbs, but can rush the passer. Oakland's been using him as a 4-3 DE since they drafted him, so him fitting into this scheme shouldn't be a problem. And, in this theory, he's going to provide a bigger, better run-stopping body on the line in front of or next to Dion Jordan. You can also reduce him inside on passing downs next to Odrick and Vernon, which is a plus.

    Brandon Deaderick - signed by former Seattle DC Gus Bradley in Jacksonville. He's been used as a 3-technique DT this year, but he's familiar with the 3-4 setup from his time at the University of Alabama and with the Patriots. He only signed a 1 year deal with Jacksonville, so you can probably sign him for relatively cheap.

    Arthur Jones - from the Baltimore Ravens. He's probably not as athletic a guy that you'd want to play that 5-technique spot, but he's experienced with it playing in Baltimore's system.

    Linval Joseph - from the New York Giants. He'd be pretty pricey to play that NT spot, but he's pretty good.

    You could also kick the tires on guys like Aubrayo Franklin, maybe Terrence Cody, and Colin Cole - who actually played in Seattle as a reserve.

    There are also quite a few guys you could draft. Here's three of my favorites: Louis Nix - NT from Notre Dame. He's probably the closest prospect to Vince Wilfork to come along since Vince Wilfork, but I don't think he's on the same level. He's very underrated as a pass-rusher, and he's a massive presence against the run. He was one of, if not the only Notre Dame defenders to actually play well against 'Bama in last year's BCS Championship Game.

    His teammate Stephon Tuitt would be a pretty nice 5-technique. He's big, fast, and very active. I think he's a little stiff, but I'm not sure that will affect him much in a scheme like this. He also reminds me of Minnesota's Ra'Shede Hageman. Hageman plays a 1-technique spot for the Gophers, but he's also played the 3-technique spot, and he's got pretty good measureables. He's 6'6" and around 310 - 315lbs and I think he'll surprise some people with his athleticism and could play either the NT or DE spot in this defensive system. There are others like Deandre McDaniel, Bruce Gaston, Ed Stinson, Dominique Easley, Danny Shelton, and DaQuan Jones that merit consideration as well.

    So, there you have it, that's my take on what Miami would be well to do if the current staff is retained and they want to keep the same defensive scheme and better utilize the trio of Dion Jordan, Olivier Vernon, and Cameron Wake, along with players they already have under contract for next season and beyond.
     
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  2. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Honestly, I think you can make a case that Olivier Vernon could be the SAM backer similar to the way Bruce Irvin is Seattle's SAM backer, and Dion Jordan is the more athletic player between the two. Put him at the WILL backer spot.
     
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  3. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Great read my friend. I think you drew it up and covered it nicely.
    Interesting idea to let Misi & Wheeler duke it out for the WILL spot. IMO Vernon is capable of rotating in at LDE and SAM so that we'd have a 3 man rotation with he, Wake, and Jordan.

    Agree that it would do more to get Reshad back on track, plus going with a 2-gap capable DE, our linebackers' jobs would be that much easier in base D, no?

    Seattle's defense is greatly facilitated by Earl Thomas's coverage ability, so perhaps it'd be smart to draft Clinton-Dix.... but we could probably make do with Clemons if we need that 1st rounder elsewhere.

    Just to further parallel the Dion Jordan to Bruce Irvin deal, the Seahawks have been using Irvin in coverage throughout the year. They had him in 1 on 1 in coverage against Jared Cook [4.49 at the combine] and even broke up a long pass down the left sideline.
     
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  4. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I guess the key would be finding a quality 5-tech who can play from day 1, no?
     
  5. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    OV could certainly be rotated at either spot I'd think, though I'd personally be more inclined to keep him as an end and have him involved with every conceivable sub package you can devise.

    I think that the closed-side DE should be able to 1 or 2 gap; Seattle 2-gaps a lot with Bryant, so if you can find a guy who can do that, I think it does make things easier in the base D, especially if you're flopping sides with Jordan and Wake (Wake's see more snaps from the defense's right side in recent weeks as well. Foreshadowing?).

    I think Reshad can fill that role of Earl Thomas in the box, even if he's not a true FS, and I'd like to keep Clemons for the sake of continuity. I'm certainly not opposed to drafting Clinton-Dix, I just think there's going to be a need to draft in the trenches, offense or defense, early on to re-stock those spots.
     
  6. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If that scenario plays out, yeah. They could always revert Odrick back there if they feel inclined to draft someone like Aaron Donald or Will Sutton, or sign a 3-technique guy. I wouldn't pigeon-hole it either way.
     
  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    good point.

    They also 1-gap and hold with Bryant, which I like seeing mixed in. At least they did it last year with Gus Bradley.
     
  8. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    but their 3-tech isn't always a penetrator. He's also got to be stout enough to 1-gap and hold [intentionally occupy a double team as a 3-tech] in order to wall off the line against the run. Odrick is flexible enough to do both. I'm still a fan of PSU's DaQuan Jones whom you still gotta watch some film on and get back to me, slacker. :tongue2:
     
  9. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's true as well. Just considering it as a possibility as something they may look at.
     
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  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    It'll be nice if Wake can continuing seeing base snaps on the right side b/c it's a pain trying to mentally picture the reversed 4-3 Under- who's aligned where, who has which gaps, etc.
     
  11. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just read this in a mirror. It's from October 1st of this year, and knowing Pete Carroll, I'm sure there's been wrinkles added in between then and last night's game against the Saints. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/1/4787546/the-seahawks-and-multiple-defensive-fronts

    There's also a pretty good Seahawks blog called Field Gulls that had a lot of stuff in detail about their various fronts back when they had Alan Branch and went with an oversized look virtually every down.
     
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  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Great thread guys. I'm a little too focused on the playoff (you kiddin me, playoffs?) chase to get into it the way I normally would but I'm sure it'll make for an interesting read.
     
  13. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Nice article, thanks. I'll definitely have to look over the the blog too.
    The one thing I'd love to see that I mentioned a couple times is occasionally kicking Soliai out to DE. I think he could pose some serious blocking issues on 1st down at 5-tech [or 4i] collapsing the strong side.
     
  14. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Due to some head scratching contracts that were given out, it is hard to figure out what the Dolphins have planned for the future. Right now, the contract that was given to Koa Misi is just something that cannot be explained. Koa Misi has a contract now that has his cap hit between $2.3 million and $4.9 million over the next three years. He will count roughly $7.9 million in dead money if cut in 2014 and $5.6 in dead money if cut in 2015.

    Basically, we have 3 linebackers under contract whose dead money outweighs the money saved by releasing them till 2016, and none of the three linebackers look like long term fixtures for the team. This is what happens when you venture into free agency for the quick fix though. Basically, 35% of the cap hit for the Dolphins defense in 2014 is currently tied up in Dannell Ellerbe, Philip Wheeler, and Koa Misi. You think some of that money could be used to keep Randy Starks and Paul Soliai while the Dolphins use Dion Jordan, Olivier Vernon, and a player on a rookie contract to man the linebacker positions?

    What this will effectively do is create potentially two major holes on defense in 2014 -- Defensive Tackle and possibly cornerback. Randy Starks, Paul Soliai, Brent Grimes, Chris Clemons, and Nolan Carroll are all unrestricted free agents in 2014. Dimitri Patterson is under contract, but the Dolphins can save $5.4 million by releasing him without any dead money hurting them.
     
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  15. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    This regime has not showed us they are anywhere near as flexible as this post assumes.
     
  16. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    We aren't really in the worst of cap spots though. I haven't loved the linebackers but they aren't terrible either. None need be cut any time soon. Soliai and Starks aren't playing like they used too so I don't know if I sign either of them. That alone while cutting Patterson would put Miami in a good spot to keep grimes and Clemons. Then you just got to figure out DT. Idk how you do that but I'm not a gm.
     
  17. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I liked the read so thanks for that.

    2 issues I see with this line of thinking is that...
    1. Very few coordinators run schemes like this and are traditional NFL coaches willing to adapt to their line of thinking when slotting those players is guess work to be honest?
    2. Secondly, what makes Seattle's scheme work is 3 fold..A. they have pressure players which we have. B. They have linebackers that can fly in Malcolm Smith and KJ Wright and Bruce Irvin. They use Irvin at what Pete Carroll calls a Joker position and they have also used him as a Leo rusher. Im not at all sold we have the personnel to do this and it requires a more traditional unit of faster 4-3 cover backers at the WILL and MLB spots C. They have the best secondary in the league and their corners can press anyone which is a major advantage. Sherman and when hes playing Browner are by far the best corner duo in my opinion, and then you pair it with Thomas and Chancellor and you are talking an elite group. Its been quite a while since we've seen a group that good.

    Personally I am more in favor of a traditional 3-4 zone blitz set up and I think our personnel really matches that. Its a Planet Theory (size over speed) unit without a great amount of speed from the back 8. Id set it up as follows....the LB's are where I am gonna have real fun with this unit because of their size and length making it difficult to drop passes over the middle of the field and their ability to just punish receivers. Plus that is also our most athletically gifted unit by a long shot on this D.

    Open End/Pass rushing DE (LDE) - Jared Odrick (This is essentially Richard Seymour or Aaron Smith's position on those NE or Pitt teams)
    NT - Paul Soliai
    Closed End - Randy Starks
    OLB - Cam Wake
    ILB - Koa Misi (on 1st and 2nd down)/Phillip Wheeler or Dannelle Ellerbe on 3rd down. Logic being that Misi can take on the blockers on 1st and 2nd down and he can stack and shed. This is his best position in my opinion. I am more inclined to keep Ellerbe over Wheeler for his toughness but both those guys (Misi and Ellerbe) are also 6'2-6'3".
    ILB - Dion Jordan - Stick a guy 6-6 in the middle of your defense who can rush the passer and cover. Enjoy trying to drop passes in to 5'10" wr's, Brady. Every good 3-4 defense seems to have a lot of height especially in the middle of the field. It leads to deflections and turnovers and makes it impossible for QB's to really anticipate throws when they cant see.
    OLB - Olivier Vernon (Better pass rusher then Dion thus far and I have bigger plans for Dion anyway). I think he'd be fine setting the edge and handling run responsibilities.
    CB - Grimes You continue to use Zone or off man with this unit. Let them make plays on the ball. The size up front is going to get a lot of tips in this set up which is good for the skill set of these players.
    CB - Taylor
    FS - Jones
    SS - Clemons
     
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  18. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    considering the train wreck that is our offensive line I'd say this will most certainly be the case. you can pretty much pencil in an OT as our 1st round pick cuz we aren't getting more than one legit starter at that position in free agency and we'll need two new ones and even more for depth. though I do think the top OT's in this draft are better than last year's crop, so we should get a good one, but it's too bad we'll have to pass on a Clinton Dix, Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    The only thing I can think of is they planned to have Jordan be the DE of the future with Vernon serving in DE rotation, leaving Misi to remain the SAM. All that would've been left would be to re-sign Soliai or Starks or find a different DT in FA or the draft. Simple and clean..... but not the way I personally would've preferred it.
     
  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    We're reaching the point where Watkins & Evans will be off the board by our pick, and perhaps Clinton Dix too, so a talented OT could end up being all that's left.
     
  21. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    You know what's interesting? We are talking about schemes here, but let's look at the stats.

    The best pass defense team in the NFL?

    Seattle Seahawks hold the opposition to a 69.5 passer rating.

    The second best pass defense in the NFL?

    Miami Dolphins hold the opposition to a 72.7 passer rating.

    We have a tendency to criticize our coaches for the scheme, but apparently, the scheme is producing the desired results the staff wanted. Passer rating differential is the biggest contributing factor towards winning in the NFL, and Miami's defense is doing a great job of limiting the opposition's passer rating.

    Miami's defense is 7th in the league in points per play. Seattle's is 2nd. Over the past 3 weeks, Seattle is #1 and Miami is #2 in points per play.
     
  22. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    Josh Mauro
     
  23. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Can Lamaar Houston be the end you need to play the position Odrick held in 2012?
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    most likely yes.
     
  25. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with Todd, but it sounds like Oakland is going to do just about everything they can to keep him a Raider.
     
  26. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  27. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Louis Nix could be around that area if he declares considering his surgery and probable concerns about his weight/conditioning. If he drops to where Miami's picking, I think you pull the trigger.
     
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  28. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe if he's retained Coyle will re-evaluate the fronts the team uses based on the talent levels, but I think they've had opportunity to do it within the context of this year and not done it.

    Coyle doesn't see the psuedo-SOLB base defense position as a pass rusher, and they've gone in pretty much every direction except that. In 2012, Odrick ended up more frequently an edge rusher to certain offensive alignments, and in 2013 they've chosen to go to more even alignments.
     
  29. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    What he has done at least recently is take Olivier Vernon and align him in different spots. Against the Jets, they had Olivier standing up and rushing from the inside on a few snaps. The Cincinnati Bengals do this with James Harrison.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good stuf Ro, I'm with GM, I can't focus on this while the season is in play, just how I'm wired, but let me ask you this, Paul Solai has limited value imo around the league, he's a run stuffer, 2 down player, I see no reason to let him walk and create a hole, if the defense needs a 0 tech player, then allocate resources on the position??, unless your willing to go full metal jacket with your 43 and allow Starks and Odrick to play d- tackles and be penatrators.

    I think you have to cut Pattersons money off the books, the money saved goes right back into signing your own, and you didn't draft Jamar Taylor and will Davis for nothing, that's a no brainer as much as we all would like to see that cat healthy, unless he's willing to take a substantial pay cut and compete.

    I would go offense early and often in the draft and free agency..we have enough players to field a defense..sign our own guys on defense, and go loco on offense.
     
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  31. zwave21

    zwave21 New Member

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    Really love the idea of implementing not just the Seahawks defensive strategy but as well their offensive balance and Front Office strategy. Got to love their depth, and the way they have drafted athletes.

    Not goin to lie though we do have plenty of athletes on defense. I would just like to see more variety in our schemes to best utilize the amount of pass rushers we truly have.

    First off I don't mind the idea of having Jordan playing our "SAM" backer. While he it isn't the role we envisioned for a #3 overall pick it is a difference making role that can utilize his wide array of talents. No reason he wouldn't be able to blitz as a stand up backer, as well as play the run and the pass. As we've seen he can hold his own with his physicality and athleticism against the beast tight ends of the NFL. Then on 3rd down no reason he can't put his hand in the dirt and get after the passer.

    NT - the answer is pretty darn simple. Re-sign Solai. He is a excellent nose. He is productive. While limited as a 2 down player that won't matter as Odrick excels as a inside pass rusher. And of recent we have seen Vernon take advantage of rushing from an inside position.

    3 DT - Odrick is pretty obvious choice here. The guy has had a real breakout year in terms of his pass rush productivity and against he run. Still being used in a rotation and making the difference he had. If Seattle is excelling with Tony McDaniel I am most positive Odrick could really take off in this role, allowing more space to operate and more opportunity.

    Leo - Is Cam Wake for now. Truthfully, Cam Wake is still our best pure pass rusher and still sets the edge against he run. Clemons is a heck of a player for Seattle but I'll take Wake any day. Vernon also would excel in this role but unfortunately he isn't a better option than Wake.

    4/5 DE- Is the toughest one to gauge. If Seattle uses that mammoth of a man in Red Bryant, it'd be hard for us to view Vernon as a comparable piece. Still, the kid has made great strides but not sure if he'd be the guy who can really hold up in a more inside technique against the run. Still, when it comes to passing downs I'd be more than comfortable having him operate from a more inside or wide position. This is a huge ? for me.

    Will - Not sure who we could really pick as our most athletic linebacker. They all seem pretty comparable as sad as it sounds. Probably have to go with Phillip Wheeler. We overpaid significantly for our LB's while they have been better of late. Wheeler is not the athlete nor player KJ Wright is an I don't trust his coverage abilities.

    Mike - Ellerbe has been better in coverage of late but still I don't see him making tackles at the LOS as I do see him 4-5 yards downfield. The guy just seems stiff to me, and for a guy who has good size he doesn't play physical. In this scheme with our D-Lineman playing wide in some techniques that means we need physical linebackers who can get off their blocks. Not sure if we have any of those despite Misi (from time to time)

    The issue here with LB's is that we signed all three this past offseason. Each has quite a bit of "dead money" behind them if we were to cut them. That is a real problem for us at this point in time.

    Our Secondary as a whole has been much improved in year 2. Jones has taken a step back or I guess you could say not improved as his contract would dictate. Clemons is as solid a defender we have. Not flashy, not a real playmaker but he is steady, consistent, and not a liability. Grimes is a stud lock him up. Only way I bring Patterson back is on a one year deal at a low price. Guy plays well when he plays but he has missed more games this year than played. Still with that said please develop our young CB's and make sure we don't focus on Patterson as a viable 2nd CB.

    All in all I would just like to see more variety to get Jordan, Wake, and Vernon on the field at the same time. Coyle has adapted as time has gone on and its been better but still not exactly where I'd like it to be at.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I'd prefer Jordan at SAM, across from the TE, so he could have the potential to cover them on any given play. We often hear how it's a game of matchups, and let's face it, Jordan is physically capable of matching up against the Gronk, Graham, and Gates type of TE better than Vernon.
     
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  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Can't that be Odrick?
     
  34. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Very well could be. I just think he's show that he's more adept inside this year than he was on the edge last year. But he's certainly capable of playing both.
     
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  35. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks DJ. I'm torn on Soliai. I'd like to bring him back if he comes back at a reasonable deal...but even then, he's kind of dimmed in my eyes with his play.

    I'm not sure I'd want Starks and Odrick as my two starters, but I wouldn't put it past the staff as considering that as a possibility.
     
  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I don't see why not, although I do like his disruptive ability as an interior 1-gapper which might not be quite as utilized at DE. Would love to have 2 Odricks, one for each position. If we hypothetically want to do the Seattle model I'd think we'd just need to look for whichever player gave us the best overall tandem at DE & DT rather than pegging Odrick at one and then trying to find his compliment, if that makes sense. I think I like Odrick more at 3-tech, but if the pertinent 5-tech pickins are slim in the draft while the DT pickins are strong, I'd rather draft the DT and move Odrick to end.
     
  37. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    The ideal 5 technique? Calais Campbell. Too bad we took Philip Merling instead of him in 2008.
     
  38. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I wonder if it would stimulate Soliai's play to a more consistent level to occasionally throw him at end and let him execute something different from time to time. IDK, I think it could be fun for him to mix it up a little.
     
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Does the knee make his chances of declaring less than if he was 100% ?
     
  40. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Not a bad idea, but in the 1st I'd prefer to not be locked in one side of the ball. If the best player on the board is Nix for example, I'd hope we take him. Granted, seldom does one player in the middle to late 1st jump out as head and shoulders above all the rest.
     

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