Does Tannehill REALLY struggle with deep passes?

I think we had this discussion before. 20 yards is classifed as "deep" but some feel it really isn't. Deep is 30+. Bombs. A 20 yard pass isn't a bomb. I remember numbers thrown around for the bombs but don't remember which thread.

How does tanny rank on "Bombs?" I think Brees ran supreme. I'll see if I can dig up the thread.

 

oh god. that play against the bucs where he didn't even try to stay in bounds. ****!

I'd have benched him right there.

 

so, on the play against the chargers, Tannehill really should have just heaved it to the endzone. I think tanny's problem might be trying to drop it in perfectly instead of adopting the mentality of making the wr go and get it. Steve Smith told Vinny testaverde "You can't overthrow me". I think thats what tanny needs to do all the time now. No underthrowing, ever. Overthrow and make wallace go after it.

 

It certainly adds context to what occurred. Everyone, Gruden included, ripped Tannehill for that pass. Once the dust settles it appears that's a catch that any top tier WR should make.

 

I agree with a lot of that write-up. A shout-out to the inability to pass protect would've made sense ofcourse.

I also don't think RT has developed a great deal of "touch" on his throws, especially deep.

Tanny is still developing so I'm holding on to hope this is resolved. In the meantime while his effort on poorly thrown balls is very poor, Wallace still has been beating the leagues best CBs by 3-4 yards to no avail.

 

Tannehill seems to have settled in at about a 50 yard comfort level with his throws to Mike Wallace. Overthrow a man by 5 feet and the ball is incomplete. Overthrow him by 5 INCHES and it's incomplete. But you can underthrow a guy by 5 YARDS and it can still be complete. That's why Ryan has settled in at the distance he has.

The problem is, contrary to popular belief, it certainly is possible to overthrow Mike Wallace. Tannehill did it in Week 1, twice. The first time he launched a ball 55 yards instead of what he's settled into with 50 yard throws. That throw overshot Wallace by about a yard. Incomplete. If he'd have underthrown him by a yard it would have been complete. Overthrow him a yard, incomplete. The second time the ball was nearly picked off by a safety. On the play where Jimmy Smith held Wallace, it's hard to tell but it looked like Tannehill probably overthrew Wallace on that play. Some believe the Cincinnati overtime throw with pass interference would have been an overthrow. I have to admit, it would have been close...and it could have proved my statement that it only takes inches for an overthrow to go incomplete.

And if you REALLY pay attention to Wallace's work in 2012 with Big Ben and others, you know that even if you hit him in stride, if the ball is bordering on an overthrow but still in his outstretched hands, it's a drop more often than not. I'm not making that up. It's on the tape.

I would certainly NOT assume that Tannehill's newfound mission to "let it rip" will produce good results. It could. Everything is all about Tannehill. Just how accurate CAN he be? That's the question. But Mike Wallace does not locate the ball in the air or adjust to it very well, so he's got a low catch radius. And like I said, you throw that football just a foot too far out of his comfort zone and the ball is going to go right through the wickets for a drop.

 

Well, if he would actually make an effort on any throws where he actually has to extend his arms or go up and get the ball, it would help. He was doing this last year as well, and I pointed it out before he was signed. The guy has a 40 inch vertical and doesn't use it at all. If he has to go up and get the ball, it is an incomplete pass. If he has to extend his arms, it is an incomplete pass. If he has to adjust his route in anyway, it is an incomplete pass.

I told you guys before he signed that he was a poor fit in this scheme.

 

....and Jeff Ireland paid $60 million for that.

 

im perfectly okay with this. At this point Wallace is considered a great wr that we just can't seem to utilize and its all tannehills fault. I'd much rather the truth come out that Wallace just isn't very good and we ****ed up paying him this much. I live up here in steeler country, no one misses him.

 

I don't disagree.

But I have trouble reconciling the idea that sucked in Pitt and sucks here when his TD output there was consistently higher than here, thus far.


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well, we're 5th in the nfl right now in redzone scoring, which to me speaks pretty loudly about how useful wallace is in that situation. Why does everybody but him seem to score in that situation? Hartline, Clay, Sims, Gibson, Mathews, i've seen them all make plays and get open in the redzone at this point. All i ever see from wallace is dropped passes.

 

Outstanding stuff CK! I would love to see him benched after a play where he gave half hearted effort. Maybe after a few games of getting benched like that a light might come on, doubt it but just maybe.

 

So using this data (Great article ck), it would appear to me that:

1. Wallace doesn't run good routes.
2. Wallace does not know how to use his hands, rather than his body. (Which has made me crazy all season)
3. Wallace doesn't know how to use his speed. If he would've timed the route better against SD and used his speed at the top of the route, he'd have been open. He NEVER catches with his hands though, so he is completely ineffective fighting for the ball.
4. Wallace does not know how to use his body.

This suddenly doesn't sound like a good receiver. He is everything Hartline isn't.

I love Tanny, and I believe he has all of the potential of being an All Pro. I personally believe his accuracy has been much better than his stats suggest.

 

I think there's something to Big Rape and his ability to extend plays. I think most plays exist as specific plays for about 3 seconds. Once the pocket breaks down and the QB is on the move or breaking tackles its no longer a "play"...its barely controlled sandlot freelancing.

Our offense is designed to exist within that 3 second window. That's why routes have to be perfect. That's why they don't want Ryan breaking the pocket.

 

At this point I'd blame Wallace, and then start blaming the coaching staff too if they're not working on him about that.

 

Exactly. Which shows that Wallace isn't running routes, he is improvising a broken play and using his speed to get open. Funny thing is... watching highlights, he used his hands a lot more in the Steelers?

 

Actually, it shows that Wallace is better at freelancing than rigidity. I think Wallace is absolutely running the routes he's supposed to you. I just think he's not good at and doesn't really like so he doesn't really give it all his effort.

 

Remember when you all thought Brandon Marshall wasn't a good WR based on his time here in Miami?? Hehehe

 

Wallace has been wide open numerous times, and yet all I'm seeing is excuses why it's STILL his fault they aren't hitting big plays. At some point you have to give blame where blame is due. It's easy to pick on a guy making the big $$, but in reality it's just excuses to either extend your hate for Wallace, or apologize for Tannehill.

Wallace could certainly be doing more to adjust to those ****ty throws, but fact is HE IS STILL GETTING WIDE OPEN!! Isn't that kind of important?

 

I don't see either starter Hartline and Wallace skillsets being effective 20 yards in, neither are physical enough quite frankly, in their hands or their body..

 

Great writeup. I am a more smarter aficionado having read it. In terms of arm strength, do you feel that Tanny has plenty? Does his 50 yard throw get there as quickly as other top QB's?

 

Ginn got open a fair amount. Bob Hayes really is the only player aside from maybe Randy Moss who made his career by running open in a straight line. Moss was all world though.

Aside from Joe Flacco, there aren't a bunch of QB's consistently hitting deep throws. Tannehill had been bad going deep, but I still don't think that's been our team focus. Based on how quickly he's getting rid of the ball, I don't think it's something that's worked on a lot. He just seems so uncomfortable throwing deep.

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I agree, I wrote a post over a month ago explaining where I thought the problem lied.

To me it goes...

Protection- you can't have a successfull passing game without it. See Tom Brady when he is pressured.

Play calling- because of the lack of protection, it's forced the hand of Sherman to call plays that allow RT to get rid of the ball fast so that he doesn't get flattened or the game killing Sack/Fumble.

Tannehill- When he is getting those oppurtunities he frankly isn't making the throws. I doubt it's easy when in the back of your mind your thinking "at any minute I'm going to get whacked by a 275lb DE".

Wallace- He earned a huge deal by making big plays in the deep game, well those balls aren't coming your way very often..but that doesn't mean you shouldn't refine your skills to try to fit in, or have a desire to SNATCH the ball no matter where it's thrown.

So I feel it's a problem that a lot of people have a stake in. But when I see posters ignore everything else and go straight to Wallace it's pretty annoying. Mike Wallace IS WHO we thought he is, if you want to blame the guy who paid him then fine. But to attack a guy who is just doing what he always has is kind of silly IMO.

 

Not if he cant bring catchable balls in

 

Doesn't PFF have Flacco near the bottom of the league in terms of deep efficiency?

As for Wallace, we are finding a lot of alarming problems with his deep abilities and it appears as if these were well established before we acquired him. We see QBs all over the league slightly misfire deep but their WRs have the catch radius and hand/eye coordination to go get those passes. Dating back to his time at Pitt, it appears as if Wallace has to have the ball right in his mitts to even have a chance at a deep completion.

 

Haven't been able to post a lot lately, but totally agree with you about Wallace.

 

Like anything if someone says there are reasons why Tannehill is missing deep balls then we are apologists. God I LOVE being labeled. many who are blaming Tannehill then bring up reasons and they arent much diff than what we are saying. the pass vs SD was a misfire and we need to complete the pass. I trust CK in his analysis which doesnt completely excuse Tannehill or apologize for him. Basically all he is saying is if you know your qb and the time it takes for his to take 3 step drop from shotgun, set, hitch step, get rid of ball and you know that it doesnt time up with Wallace's speed, then why call or design the play where you are setting it up to succeed?

Seciond deep ball accuracy is the lowest of all the throws meaning half or more will not be completed, then if you only run it 1 or 2 times a game, odds are bad. I also get the "well he was wide open" argument, but as CK point out RT is looking at Wallace and throwing to him per se, he is 3 step set hitch and throw. then it is timing and if off the pass is off

 

Wasn't there video evidence of Wallace running good routes and catching passes well prior to/just after signing him? I seem to remember that it was put together to quiet some of the negativity to his signing and complaints that he was a one-trick-pony. I don't get it, are we now saying he is a one trick pony that in fact doesn't fit the offense?

 

CK had a great breakdown, I just didn't agree with all of it. If RT could put some touch on his deep ball he frankly has a lot of room for error.

Joe Philbin knows his football team and what they need to do better than anyone on this or any other message board, and he told RT he needed to " let it rip".

 

Wr has 3 steps on a defender, Qb fails to deliver even an acceptably remotely accurate pass, and of course "wr's fault"

Have to stick that throw, Tannehill is not sticking that throw, he needs to improve

 

Exactly. And I'm a big RT fan, but a spade is still a spade.

 

Maybe the timing play was off because they expected the Defense to jam Wallace at the line and instead they just let him go? Maybe that particular play failed just because the D did not do what they expected?

 

I like THill a lot, think he is our guy

Mainly b/c he has what Henne lacked, guts, THill does not give a ****, he will throw that pass whether he should or not b/c.

Henne was a train wreck in the end zone, Tannehill has -0- fear of putting a ball in the air in the endzone. What we all should realize is a great wr talent, Elite Wr talent, merely holds up a mirror to a Qb's weaknesses.

Brandon Marshall could not overcome Henne's lack of ability to throw a fade, Wallace won't be able to overcome Tannehill's inaccuracy down the field.

Only Ryan Tannehill can overcome that weakness

 

I'm sorry, this is not true.

Wallace does not fight for the ball. He expects every pass to be a bread basket. Its his job to build trust in him from RT's standpoint. There is no reason for RT to trust Wallace enough to get under a deep pass.

 

So instead Tannehill feels like the best option is to under throw it?? Really makes no sense.

 

No, I think he's trying to hit him like he would if it was a 10 yard slant. Think about it, on a 50 yard fly a ball thrown to hit the receiver in the numbers looks like an under throw because the recover has to stop or slow down. Wallace needs to fight for a damn ball. Show RT and the team he's got some sack, that's how you build trust. No one questions if Hartline, Clay, Gibson or Matthews have the sack to fight for the ball, and they aren't having a problem with RT getting them the ball.

 

But he is failing to connect, and I agree he is treating it like a slant and that's the problem. He needs to lay it out there with some air under it and let Wallace run underneath it.

I think we finally see that connection this week. Call it an uneducated hunch.

 

But he is doing that because he has no faith in Wallace, because Wallace has done nothing to garner any faith...is my point.

 

I agree that if you looked at the best deep ball passers right now RT wouldnt be one of them. I dont think it is a weakness of his but isnt his best pass, the thing is that he doesnt do it often enough for him to develop the timing to a point that the misses are less glaring. Because at best we run it twice a game and more like 1, any miss is magnified ten fold. For a pass that is highly inaccuarte by nature, repetition improves the results.