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Dion Jordan vs. Jimmy Graham

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Miamifan13, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    What is everyone's opinion on, at least some plays, letting Dion cover Jimmy Graham??

    Nevermind each team, there is probably only one defender in each division that can cover Jimmy Graham down the field. That being said, we are lucky enough to have that guy. When we drafted him, not only did I envision him getting after QB's a'la Lawrence Taylor, but I also saw him as an answer in coverage on many of the freakish TE's in the NFL, namely Gronk and Hernandez (pre-bust).

    If we take Graham away, the chances of winning this game probably doubles. Dion CAN do it. The question is whether or not the coaching staff can get it into the game plan in time.

    I think its a MUST that this approach be taken and I do not see any drawbacks to it.

    THOUGHTS????
     
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  2. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    id rather have DJ getting after the QB since vernon is useless.
     
  3. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    I'm dying to see this actually. Is this kid the next JT?

    Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 4
     
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  4. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    Giving him a chance is better than not giving him a chance. We need to see what he can do vs. top tier talent on a regular basis, and I'd like to think we didn't trade up and draft him that high to have him only play snaps here and there.
     
  5. seabass0795

    seabass0795 New Member

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    If Wake was playing I would be down with this idea, but now I am not sure, we need pressure outside. One thing that could happen is we send DJ with Graham in the speed package, but other than that I am unsure for this game.
     
  6. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    What's more important; Putting as much pressure on Brees as possible, or maybe covering the TE? I might mix it up early, but if Jordan proves that he can get after the QB, I'd keep him in that role, and let Wheeler give it a try in coverage.
     
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  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Graham has been killing teams. Maybe Shelby at DE and Jordan covering Graham at OLB might work, or maybe Jordan at DE and Jelani Jenkins in the speed package as a coverage OLB. Jenkins has to be good for something, if he can't cover TEs and RBs in the flat then I don't know why we drafted him, he's weak at the point of attack.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, sort of, keep in mind Jordan was meant to be a "Tiger" meaning sometimes coverage, sometimes DE, to just stick him on Graham is to remove him from that role.
     
  9. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Brees can be sacked this year, with 10 sacks in three games. He also has 4 INTs.

    The Saints will undoubtedly pass. But if they pass, the possibility of pressures and sacks are there. I contacted my buddy who is a solid NFL fan and rabid Saints fan, and he said that their O-line is pretty weak. I do not watch them, so I will defer to him.

    It seems as though they are having issues running. I think Miami can basically focus on the passing game of the Saints, which is one of the best in the league. Can Miami get pressure and rattle Brees?

    Miami has to kill the fan energy somehow. This is going to be Miami's toughest challenge to date. I want them to win badly, but will be okay with a tough played loss.
     
  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think it's a bit of a stretch at this point. There's still a lot of technical skills there.

    I am curious how well Jordan could redirect someone like that at the line.
     
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  11. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yes, in theory. In reality I doubt he is ready to do that on a repeated basis all game long and not get victimized.
     
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  12. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    Graham is good, but I'd worry about Colston just as much. I agree that if Wake was playing, that might be an option... Kinda funny too, the way you post this, it sounds like we actually have this choice! Against Atl the TE coverage was much better. I'd expect a lot of double teams, and you have to knock off the receivers at the line, get their timing off.
     
  13. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Id throw Reshad Jones or Chris Clemons on Graham. Jordans pass rush is needed especially with wake out.
     
  14. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    The saints are a buzzsaw right now. I wouldn't change the D up much, given that Wake and possibly Soliai will be out. The real question for us is whether Patterson can return...I think they bracket the coverage of Graham with a DB over the top and Ellerbe/Wheeler underneath. DJ has been brought along pretty slowly by this staff. There must be a reason but you don't draft a guy as high as they did and not expect him to have an impact right away. He's getting more snaps, but still only in a reserve role. This could be the week that changes (with Wake out), but his best place is getting after Brees...
     
  15. Claymore95

    Claymore95 Working on it... Club Member

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    I'm sure he has the ability to cover him, but with Wake out we need him pressuring Brees more. DJ getting to Brees would negate all his options, and not just nullify Graham.
     
  16. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    That's what scares me. Wheeler CANNOT stay with Graham. He can jam him at the line and let him go, as can almost everybody else, but he is NOT running with him beyond 5yds. Even if Graham gets a step on him, Dion still makes it a tougher throw. I'm ok with all the other matchups on the field. Coverage sacks are just as nice.

    I'm confident he can jam him and even if Graham gets off, he can run with him down the field. I don't suggest doing this on every play, but if we can have a few plays every quarter where Graham isn't such a threat to catch a 20yd pass I think it helps us greatly.

    I hear ya....like I said in my OP, on some plays.

    I'm not so sure I want to bring a safety in the box. Nor do I like handing him off to a safety in zone coverage, by that time he's already going full speed.



    I'm looking at this more from a standpoint of NOT being able to get to Brees enough to slow them down. If we're getting there with our front four and disrupting their timing then I would prefer to stay the course that way. However, if the pressure is just not there, I like the Dion-on-Graham plan a lot and I think it would be effective, at times, throughout the game.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    With Cameron Wake out, we're in need of efficient pass rushing. Dion Jordan is our most efficient pass rusher at the moment even with Cameron Wake on the field. Not that Jordan is as talented or dependable as Wake, but he's been very efficient and that should lead us to believe he can continue being efficient.

    The Dolphins need him to rush the passer and worry about that only, for the moment. They need to place an emphasis on it. Especially since Paul Soliai's injury detracts from the ability of Randy Starks and Jared Odrick to pin their ears back and go after the quarterback. That showed in the Atlanta game.

    I would not mind seeing Olivier Vernon lined up over the tight end at times, charged with engaging him in physical combat that prevents him from getting quickly out into his routes. Vernon has that ability and showed it at The U. The Dolphins did this some against Atlanta when Wake was out. They got Vernon matched up against tight ends in pass protection. That was how he got a couple of the hurries that he got in the game.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think the idea of Jordan being a cover guy is a little overblown.

    He has the ability to drop back and play a zone. I don't think he would have any success in man coverage. Certainly not against someone like Graham.

    He should be rushing the passer the majority of his snaps, with a very small percentage dropping into zone coverage.
     
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  19. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    It's really not though. He covered slot receivers in college. He has 4.5 speed and quick hips. I'm not saying he can go out on the edge and cover the Dez Bryants and Julio Jones' of the world, but he should be able to hold his own against TE's. Its more of a question of whether or not they put it in the game plan. I love him as a pass rusher, but I'd like to move him around too. It'd be nice to confuse opposing offenses rather than it be the other way around.

    Maybe I'm too giddy over Dion, but if I were a def. coordinator I'd take advantage of all of his skills. We'll have to wait and see.
     
  20. cjjr72984

    cjjr72984 New Member

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    Sooo basically the Dolphins will have to use bracket coverage on Graham. Out of all the posts I've seen, there doesn't seem to be anyone that can handle him 1-on-1.

    Only problem with doubling Graham is, it leaves Sproles with LB's to cover him. Sproles wins that all day.

    What's also dangerous about Graham is WHERE the Saints line him up at. Yea he's deadly with his hand on the ground, but the Saints like to line him up wide.
     
  21. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I think that you're not giving Jordan enough credit for how well he plays in space. The speed, quicks, acceleration plus 6-6 height make him a excellent candidate for covering the tall and athletic Jimmy Grahams of the NFL.

    Look at a couple of plays starting at 1:14 as per Jordan functioning in space and his quicks/acceleration:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMoel8E3HaE

    He can play the TE man off the LOS, pick him up in a zone with his acceleration and height, or fake the coverage and blitz with a Sefety picking up the TE. If the Dolphins don't use Jordan significantly in space, as a pass rushing/coverage OLB ideally, I think that they'll be wasting his talents as he locks horns with OTs at the LOS.

    With Wake hurt I think that it's a fair assumption that Jordan will have increased pass rushing responsibilities to help pick up the slack. That being said, someone has to cover Jimmy Graham, and I think that Jordan could do a good job of it.
     
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  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's a little misleading to say Jordan covered slot receivers. He went out detached from the line of scrimmage just like most SAM linebackers would in those situations, and he physically mauled the receiver at the line and then just dropped back into a very short depth, simple zone from there. I don't know if that's covering the slot receiver so much as covering a zone where a slot receiver happened to be lined up at the moment.

    He did cover tailbacks on wheel routes but that duty isn't all that uncommon. Miami very nearly scored a premature touchdown when Atlanta had Jonathan Massaquoi covering Lamar Miller on the wheel.

    I like Dion Jordan in coverage. I think he covers like a linebacker. Not like a coverage linebacker. More like a Koa Misi.

    But out in coverage he's a Volvo. Rushing the passer he's a Bugatti.
     
  23. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    No....he covered slot receivers.....not just jam, but covered. I'm not talking about a drop zone....that's what you do when your LB's CAN'T cover. I've seen plenty of footage of him running with slot receivers on slot corner blitzes. He didn't do it every down, but he did it and proved he could do it and that's part of what made him so attractive to scouts.

    Who in the NFL is a coverage linebacker if Dion isn't?
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Then you've seen snaps from games that I haven't seen, apparently.

    And a lot of linebackers are better in coverage than Dion Jordan. Both Karlos Dansby and Kevin Burnett were better. Dannell Ellerbe and Phil Wheeler are better. You're severely overestimating his coverage. I don't think Dion's own coaches would agree with you if you're trying to say Dion is one of the best coverage linebackers in the NFL.
     
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  25. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    No... you are underestimating Dion's ability to cover in space. Watch more tape. I know its college competition, but the speed and movement can't be denied.

    Saying he's closer to Koa Misi (4.8 40) than Dansby and Ellerbe is ridiculous.

    I'm not trying to get Dion switched to LB or say that he's better than any of our LB's at their position, but I'll say it right here that I think Dion has a better chance at covering JG than anyone else on our defense. If playing zone works, then so be it. However, if we can't get pressure and JG is running free through our secondary with the ball, I'd like to give Dion a shot one-on-one. JG will rape Wheeler and Ellerbe in one-on-one coverage. That's not a knock on our LB's either, its just a bad size/speed matchup for them and most every other LB in the league.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I seriously doubt the problem is that I need to "watch more tape".

    Just agree to disagree.
     
  27. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    I lean with CK on this one. With the probable absence of Wake, Miami needs that pressure on Brees. He can get rattled a bit, and if the game is close, an INT can change the layout of the game. IF Wake plays, maybe trying it out once or twice to throw them off might be something to consider.

    My biggest issue with Jordan on Graham: ball skills. While I have no doubt those two are matched up athletically, Grahams' ball skills are out of this universe, and a PI call can change the game dynamics quickly, esp. in a raucous Superdome.


    Graham is 3rd in the league in receiving yards and 2nd in TDs. He will get his touches. Minimizing his production will be difficult enough. How to accomplish this is the real challenge.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with you on ball skills and I know you were probably including this amongst your category of ball skills but what particularly concerns me about Jordan in coverage is simply his lack of awareness. He doesn't have a great grasp on passing lanes nor does he relate well to receivers in zone. And if you match him man to man on Jimmy Graham then in my opinion you're asking for big trouble because Jordan has virtually no experience being asked to do something like that and now suddenly he's being asked to do it against the best tight end in the game.
     
  29. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    pppptttt...
    whatever, watch more tape, newb
     
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  30. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Lol man please....this is the most dynamic TE in the game we're talking about (who happens to be a FA after the year, of course there's a 95% chance he never hits the market...but hey, a man can dream).
     
  31. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    lol @ your analogy at the end. While Dion may have the athletic ability to develop into a guy that can match up with the flex TEs… I certainly don’t want to have him doing that at this point in his career… let alone having his first attempt be against Jimmy bleepin Graham, lol! Maybe for a random play or 2 having him drop back into coverage on a disguised blitz or something… but nothing I’d want to do close to regularly.

    As for the 2nd part of your analogy… what has your thoughts been on Dion rushing the passer so far this season? Have you been impressed/pleased/disappointed/etc?
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    None of those plays actually show him running with guys 20-30 yards past the LOS., covering guys on deep outs, etc. He's playing in space near the LOS, in short hook zones, etc.

    And its not necessarily about having the speed or agility as much as its about technique and recognition. Dion Jordan isn't taking practice reps with DBs.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    More impressed than not. He lacks the ability to flow from his initial move into counters, so if you have him blocked initially then he's pretty much out of the play until/unless the quarterback changes the angles by breaking out of his nest. Once that happens, good luck trying to match Jordan's speed, agility and reaction time giving chase to the quarterback when he's got the advantage of first response. This is how he got his sack on Joe Thomas. Not really Joe Thomas' fault at all, but it shows you what Jordan can do even when he's blocked.

    And there's just a certain percentage of times he will get you on that initial move. He's lengthy and athletic as hell. He needs to play more. If his shoulder is out of the woods to where you don't fear further damage, he needs to be starting.
     
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  34. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not sure if it has been mentioned anywhere around here, but Dion Jordan has the highest Pass Rush Productivity (PRP) of any DE in the NFL who has played more than 25% of his teams snaps, according to PFF. He has 8 total pressures in 41 pass rush snaps, for a PRP of 15.2. Cam Wake is 5th among 4-3 DEs with a PRP of 14.3.

    I'd be interested/curious to see how Jordan would do in coverage against Graham, but I don't want to see too much of it. And with Wake probably out, we need that pass rush from Jordan.
     
  35. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    I'd love to see them start him & Shelby...and rotate in OV.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I was disappointed with Shelby's performance against the Falcons but I think there's more meat on the bone there.

    I would like to see Miami perhaps give up SOME of their more gimmicky pass rush packages and have Dion Jordan, Jared Odrick, Olivier Vernon/Derrick Shelby and Cam Wake all rush the passer with hands on the ground at the snap. I also favor the same thing with Randy Starks on the field instead of Vernon/Shelby. I don't know that the whole thing where they keep trying to have Vernon or Jordan with hand off the ground is working, as far as pass rush goes. It's working in terms of quarterback containment, and if you fear that then absolutely do it. But if you don't, then I'd rather get those guys down on the ground rushing the passer.
     
  37. Miamifan13

    Miamifan13 New Member

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    No disrespect....I'm just responding to where you said you never saw video of DJ in coverage. Its out there.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I've seen almost every single one of Jordan's games from his final year at Oregon, and about half of the ones from his previous year. If you say those snaps are out there on tape I'm not going to tell you you're lying. But I haven't seen very many of them. If any.
     
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  39. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Have you noticed any difference in pass rush effectiveness/efficiency with Dion with his hand on the ground vs. standing?
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Generally better with hand on the ground, IMO.
     

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