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Ok no seriously....let's stop the oline panic..

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Things are starting to get out of control over the oline. Much of the hope and goodwill from earlier in the offseason is spiraling into panic.

    Let's set the record straight a little bit:

    The Oline Shuffling:
    We are not shuffling the oline because we don't have starters. We are shuffling the oline to get a full grasp of who can play what position in the event of injuries later on. This was going to happen at some point during the TC, they chose to do it now, while Jerry is injured. And Jerry will be back at some point before the season, btw. Coach Turner, the oline coach, confirms most of this in his interview here: http://www.miamidolphins.com/media/videos/Inside_The_Oline_With_Coach_Turner/201f3a02-3d87-4b88-8bf0-0460de85c31f

    Paraphrasing Coach Turner:
    That's straight from the guy that is in charge of the oline, so let's stop with that part of the panic. There's no need to interpret or guess or fear this part. They are only covering their bases and it has nothing to do with the starting lineup.

    Jon Martin being replaced:
    The FO was not trying to replace Martin this offseason. No move that we were linked to making would have kept Martin from starting at one of the tackle positions. They were going to play Martin at left or right tackle this year. Did they feel Albert and Long were better LTs than Martin? Yes. Does that mean they think Martin is going to be a poor LT? No. Would the signing of either meant he wouldn't have started at RT? No.

    Jon Martin in practice so far:

    This is only the second week of TC. The adage is the defense is ahead of the offense at this time of year. Its an adage because its true. We also are looking at one of the, if not the best dlines in the league. With Odrick being back in his natural position, and OV improving and Dion flashing, few olines are going to look good against this group. Let's also factor in that we brought in 2 pass rushing LBs, and got a lockdown corner in Grimes.....plus Wallace and Hartline didn't even play that scrimmage.

    Jon Martin going forward:
    I'm not trying to tell anyone that Martin is great or will be great. But I don't think he'll be WORSE than he was last year, so even if he stays exactly the same as last year, we are in a much better position to thrive. We have virtually a completely new set of skill players surrounding Tannehill that are all about speed and quickness. 2 things we had none of last year. That speed and quickness translates into Ryan needing less time to find an open receiver. The less time he needs, the less time needed to block. Plus, with the right personnel this year to run Philbin's system, we'll be able to let players help out more in protection. Just a little chip on a pass rusher can dramatically change the game. For example last year Tannehill:
    - had a 96.5 QB rating when he had over 2.5 seconds to throw and he only had that for 39.8% of his drop backs.
    - had a 67.5 QB rating when he had less than 2.5 seconds to throw and he had that for 57.9% of his drop backs.
    That's the difference a HALF OF A SECOND can make.


    Again, i'm not predicting an all world oline this season. I'm just saying there is not enough data to panic yet.
     
  2. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    This reminds me of all the "Let's not worry about the WR position" threads from last season... :shifty:

    In all seriousness, I hope you're right, but with everything riding on Tannehill, this line they have out in front of him is bit of a question mark at the very least.
     
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  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't know why. I'm not making any predictions that we'll be fine. All I'm saying is the catalysts for all this gnashing of teeth isn't valid yet. Come preseason game number 5 and all this is going on, then there is a real concern...but there just isn't right now.

    I mean if the sacks in the scrimmage mean anything, then Tannehill's 3 tds mean just as much and by theur nature, prove the sacks didn't hurt the offense.
     
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  4. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    This. I will wait until then, if they suck I dont see this team doing much....Tough for a QB to function under that kind of pressure consistently....

    It is early and lets face it folks MOST of the OL's would look bad going against Miami's front 7 in practice everyday.....
     
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  5. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    thanks fin deej
     
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  6. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    Amen
     
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  7. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    I think its premature to worry about the OL at this stage.

    If the OL looks unsteady in game 1 of the regular season then perhaps there is justification for some concern IMO.
     
  8. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Way to go out on a limb there! He was one of the worst tackles in the entire league last year, there's really nowhere to go but up.

    Actually if he doesn't improve at all, he's probably getting benched.
     
  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The OL overall will be fine IMO. Even with Martin playing below-average, there is still a lot of talent at the other spots.
     
  10. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't see that at all. Last year I felt the WRs lacked a #1 and a receiving TE and that we'd need at least two or three upgrades moving forward (among WRs and TEs). I only saw one potential development type (Matthews). In the OL I feel we have one of the top Cs in the league and that C is the most important position on the line. After that I believe that being strong in the middle overall is the next priority. RI was a probowl player last season. That's 2 out 3 probowlers in the most important part of the line. I doubt most OLs in the league have that. For the third middle position we have several players that could fill the role nicely. Louis was the best player on Chicago's OL by many accounts. He's injured and may or may not reach that same level this year, but his age and nature of the injury makes it at worst likely that he'll return to that level eventually. If he doesn't make it we also have a couple of third round picks with at a minimum potential to be be solid to good starters. We don't need them all to work out. If just one of the three plays decent then our interior OL is easily in the top half of the league. Not that the outside is devoid of talent. Clabo is also a recent pro bowler who was rated as high as the second best T in the league in 2011 by PFF (for those who put stock in their ratings). Martin is a 2nd round pick who IMO looked very similar to what Joe Staley looked like as a rookie (you may recall him from last year's NFC SB representative). As a rookie he lacked strength and was often bull rushed. I don't know if Martin will become as good as Staley, but even if he remains a below average LT, it's still an OL with three recent pro bowl players. Most teams would be thrilled with that. You don't need pro bowlers at all five positions. Most great lines are usually made up of a couple of high talent guys that just work well together. That working together part is the primary reason they're great. Often 3/5 of those great lines are guys that would be below average individually. I don't see much reason to doubt that Martin has enough talent to become an average LT. (I prefer him on the left side rather than the right). IMO our OL right now has the talent to be among the best in the league. Whether and how well they mesh will determine how close they come to reaching that potential. I am not among those that sees the OL as needing more talent. If players are not re-signed or there are injuries that may change of course, but as they stand now I like both the starters we have and their potential going forward. If a great OL talent became available then sure, but otherwise I'd prefer that our resources be focused on higher impact positions. I actually think that the opinion on this OL at the end of the year will have more to do with RT's decision making and Miller's vision than anything else.
     
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  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I for one haven't really been tempted to raise any kind of alarms over the problems the interior line have had with defending blitzes and interior rushers like Randy Starks and Jared Odrick. The continuous shuffling makes me a little nervous but that's it. This is the kind of stuff that gets better with further install.

    However the Jon Martin/Olivier Vernon/Dion Jordan stuff is significant to me.
     
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  12. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    That's cause at this time last year none of us really knew what was happening with hartline. Remember he was hurt or something? I thought we were going to cut him and then he has a 1000 yd season.

    The corps still seriously lacked in talent but hartline and bess certainly held it together last year.
     
  13. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    I think we have a shot to have 4 and 1/2 good linemen this season. that's pretty good in today's NFL. IMO, we just need Martin to evolve into above average and we'll be just fine. In the meantime, Sims and Miller can help him out with some of the speed rushers.
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    As of today the oline is exactly where it was supposed to be but with Samuda in for the injured Jerry.

    So that's definitely one thing I was right about and that means the only thing left is Martin.
     
  15. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If the coahces and GM aren't concerned about Martin then they are idiots.

    I suppose he could look fine against Dallas and Jacksonville and maybe we forget about it, but he's not just been below average in camp. He's been a complete turnstile.

    Below average would be a vast improvement.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    lol.
     
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  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mention him above, but I have long been a fan of Samuda as well. I tend to like that Samoans for the interior of the OL. I just think they have a tendency towards the right body type for the position. I would add him to the list of potentials on the interior of the line. I just see no reason to believe that we're not likely to have a very good interior OL and at least a good to above average RT. I also think that Martin is at a minimum likely to be improved. Obviously injury would be a concern, but that only puts us in the same position as 31 other teams. And I expect that we'll have better depth than we've had in at least a decade.
     
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  18. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    LMAO. Yeah, man. Why don't you head over to Davie and teach them how to evaluate OLinemen. Be sure to start with the basics so you don't lose them. Maybe you can print out some of the media and twitter reports you've read and show them to the staff.
     
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  19. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    I've come to the realization that dolphins fans can't truly seem to grasp just how bad Martin was last year...they think he was average! They think one of the worst tackles in the league was actually average or slightly below. one poster here actually thinks he was better than Jake Long last year. If Martin was average last year or even average in camp right now, we wouldn't be talking about any plan b because we wouldn't need one. As of right now, the only improvement i see with him is his body. But he is still terrible.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You haven't seen anything from him. You've heard this and read that, but you haven't seen anything.

    Even if you have gone to a practice or two, then you've still seen less than the staff has, who know more about oline play then you ever will.
     
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  21. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    I highly doubt that.
     
  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Outside of injury, I see Martin as the only real question mark. And it's not like we're the Saints or the Packers. We won't be throwing the ball 40+ times a game by design. We have a running game that can keep us out of long yardage situations and a defense that can prevent us from falling behind by multiple scores. That's half the battle in protecting the QB, staying out of obvious passing situations. Then there's the screen/draw game, the 1-3-5 step drops that the offense is predicated on, plus chips by the backs and TEs.


    I'm fairly certain that most of our opponents will have more to fear from our pass rush than we will from theirs.
     
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  23. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Ahh, the age old adage "just trust the staff" ...yea I was basically told the same thing last year with the receivers and we all saw how that played out. Btw is Ireland part of the staff you're referring to? because if so, sorry I don't trust him. At all.
     
  24. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I read this quickly as:

    Ok no seriously....let's stop the online panic...

    And my first thought was "BUT BUT BUT that's what we do"!!!:tongue2:
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ahh the old adage, you know more than the coaches and surprise, surprise an Ireland jab.

    No one told you anything about the Wrs last year.

    You ever notice, you make quite a bit of stuff up?
     
  26. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    If you say so.

    No I don't.
     
  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    So you haven't been to a single camp practice, you don't trust the Phins staff but you do trust Omar, Armando and the rest of the media types? I can see why you seem confused.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok fine, who told you the WRs were awesome?
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I've said this before but I'm not worried about pass protection from LG to RT. The line from a personnel standpoint has been built to protect fairly well at those four spots. I do worry a little bit if Tyson Clabo (who is primarily a pass protector at this stage of his career) will wear down during games when asked to keep up with Miami's preferred style of hurry up offense. That's sort of in the back of my mind. We hear about blitz sacks and interior sacks by Starks and Odrick probably almost as much as we hear about Jon Martin getting destroyed, but it's not a concern. The more time they get the more they'll get the interior straightened out to prevent those blitz sacks because unlike out on the wings with the tackles against outside pass rushers, that interior and blitz protection is a lot more about chemistry than just performance.

    I do worry about all the shuffling and what it's going to do to the run blocking though. That was already going to be behind the 8-ball because of personnel. Constant shuffling is not going to help. Yeah they may have settled on Samuda at RG today, but it's been different every day, and who knows what they'll be back to tomorrow.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    In regards to the shuffling, you think there's no truth to it being a contingency for later and that are just unhappy with the chart as is?
     
  31. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Zombies return.

    And by the way, I never suggested I was an oline guru but anybody can see that Martin is performing terribly right now. And the coaches see it. He might be their only option right now but it doesn't make him a good one
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    There's no one else on the team that can play tackle now?
     
  33. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think its too early at all to worry about the OL, or Martin in particular. It's actually too late. Martin's performance last year, wasnt good at RT, or LT. We should all know that by now. I can see the reason for optimism hoping that an offseason for him to get stronger, and the permanent switch back to his college position at LT should help him. However, all reports so far from camp are that Martin is struggling bigtime. Maybe when the line shuffling stops, and guys get in the permanent positions having Richie next to Martin will help solidify them, but just as you say there's not enough data to show he will be bad, there's also not enough to show he will be even average at this point. All indications at this point are that he's... not getting the job done.

    Now I say its too late to panic at this point... because there's not much we can do. We're stuck with him at LT. Sure we can help him out with TE's etc. However, all that does is take another weapon away from the QB. Lining up in 12 personell can give you that extra TE to block, but it takes a WR off the field as well. That's just one example. Anything we have to do to help him, takes a weapon or decoy away somewhere. It hinders the offense all the way around IMO.

    Hopefully when the coaches settle in on the OL as a whole, and who's going to play where, things solidify and that helps Martin improve his play... I'm not counting on it though. There's plenty of reasons why already out there in reports from camp. However as you said... alot of it could be attributed to the shuffling, and evaluating of each O-lineman at each position to see what we've got.

    Time will tell...

    I know it's not directed at me... but I'd asume theres truth to it being evaluations for later. There's quite a few guys on this line that are rather inexperienced. Now is the perfect time to see where they fit in best. Who knows we could have a G, that's better suited to be a T or vice versa. As Turner said too... its good to know who can play where on gameday if someone goes down. The shuffling does need to stop soon though so the line can solidify itself. I think this shuffling is really a product of having an extra bit of camp time, and an extra preseason game as well compared to past years, and other teams this year.
     
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  34. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe not LT.

    Maybe Martin is the best of 3 or 4 bad options.

    Just because he's the best we have doesn't make him good.

    Even you aren't disingenuous enough to suggest he's good, you're hoping for average which is a steep climb right now
     
  35. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    Too much negativity on Martin. Too much. These reporters need to start tweeting out every play where he doesn't give up a sack now to calm some of the irrational fear going on.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I've been plenty clear about my stance. its not positive or negative on Martin. Its just too damn early to be this panicked. We have no idea what kind of player we have yet. And even if he isn't good or just as bad as last year, we'll be fine, because we're pretty much better everywhere else.

    As for the bold....I'm not disingenuous at all.
     
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  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Except that, statistically speaking, there need to be about 95 of those non-sack plays for every ONE of those sack plays. And that's just if the guy wants to be average.

    Think I'm going to take a guess that Jon Martin didn't take 380 reps today.
     
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  38. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure that particular aspersion is one you should be casting elsewhere. If certain posters suddenly began cropping up with a certain M.O., you and your posts in this thread would certainly be among the front-runners for the holotype.
     
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  39. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    im just saying theres no context. For one, pass blocking isn't the only thing martin will be doing. Haven't heard a single thing about his run blocking from anyone. Are these sacks coming in obvious passing situations where the dline are pinning their ears back and going full out? We all know Wake is a much different player on 3rd and 10 then he is on 3rd and 2, im sure the same applies to all DEs. Are we giving Martin ANY help? Back chipping, Te chipping, rolling, calling draws, screens, etc? Or are we just straight dropping back and isolating him to see if he can do it alone for now?

    It's being highlighted too much. theres just so much more to the game then a 1 on 1 situation between a LT and DE. In an obvious passing situation, the LT only has one advantage (the snap count) every other advantage goes to the defense.
     
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  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Statistically speaking, all practice reps are the same as game reps?
     

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