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Article discussing the Green Bay Packers receivers and route tree

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by KB21, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/packersroutetree.html?viewall=1

    The article itself is not Dolphins related or draft related, but I think we can extrapolate from this what Miami probably should and is likely looking for when it comes to the talent and skill level of the wide receivers.

    Just a few things to note.

    1. All of Green Bay's receivers not only run a full route tree, but they also understand coverages and reading defenses. This is probably a reason why it is difficult for a rookie to get a lot of reps in the offense, as Randall Cobb noticed during his rookie year.

    2. The receivers are interchangeable. Each of them can play the X, Z, and H (slot) positions. Idealistically, you think of your X as your speed guy, Z as your physical guy, and H as your quick guy. In their system, Jennings is the X that can play the other two positions. Nelson is the Z that can play the X and H. Cobb is the H that can play the X and Z. Finley is the Y.

    3. The passing offense and progressions are not built around one receiver in particular. It is build around concepts. Each concept may have a different "open" receiver based on the coverage given.

    So, how does this relate to the Dolphins. Well, IMO, the Dolphins offensive philosophy is very close to the Packers offensive philosophy, if not identical. I think this should give us an idea of what Miami will likely be looking for in their receivers, whether through the draft or through free agency.

    IMO, they will be looking for receivers who are versatile enough to play all three receiver positions within the offense and can run a full route tree. A lot of the other stuff will be qualities that will come once they get into the NFL.

    IMO, this is also why Mike Wallace is a very poor fit for the Dolphins. Yes, he has the down the field speed and play making ability the team needs, but he is also very limited in his route tree and can only play the split end position. There is a reason Pittsburgh resigned Antonio Brown and is letting Mike Wallace walk. Brown is the more complete receiver. Even if Wallace wasn't looking for $10 million plus a year, he'd still be a poor fit for the offense.
     
  2. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Sounds like Quinton Patton could be a fit.
     
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  3. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Patton is a MAJOR fit in this offense.
     
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  4. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Patton is perhaps the best fit at this position in the draft. I'm interested to see what his forty and vertical are at the combine. To me, this is a younger Greg Jennings type that will likely play the X receiver while easily being able to play the Z and H.
     
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  5. ssmiami

    ssmiami Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As is Bailey
     
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  6. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You know who else really fits and that's Robert Woods.
     
  7. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Really appreciate you posting this info. Its very interesting. The only thing I would wonder (and wouldn't know the answer to, or have the indepth understanding of offensive scheme to determine it) is how much schematically/philosophy is the offense influenced by Sherman or Philbin? Or are their offensive philosophies one and the same?

    If they are different, and Sherman's philosophy was more predominant, I'd love to know the same info from his own Packers years, as well as his TexasAM stuff (although I don't think the college would necessarily translate directly).
     
  8. PhinsFan93

    PhinsFan93 New Member

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    I agree. A lot of people sleep on Woods.
     
  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Mr Toothpick Legs? I agree that he fits the scheme but I hope it doesn't come down to us using a 2nd on him TBH.
    Rather Wheaton than Woods myself.
     
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  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'd rather sleep in the woods. :p
     
  11. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University
    Worst. Joke. Ever.
     
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  12. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Question... how do you feel CPatterson would fit in with this philosophy? He seems like he can play either inside or out, although I don't know the finer details of the differences between the X and the Z.
     
  13. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    How does HE feel about that?
     
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  14. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Sounds like most offenses. The various alignments aren't musts but it helps a lot. The key is the tags. Glad that was noted.

    Been saying this.
     
  15. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Keenan Allen fits that mold very well. That's why while he's not my top choice, I would be okay if they took him. Stedman Bailey also would be a very good fit IMO.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    We have an open relationship.
     
  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would add that the WRs need a certain amount of football IQ. A big part of it is having the QB and WR on the same page. They both know the whole concept and who is most likely to get the pass. I think that was part of the reason that Hartline had good production this season. He's a smart WR.
     
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  18. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    IMO, I think he is a guy who will make a bigger impact in a scheme like this in 2-3 years rather than right away. I think Cordarrelle possesses all the natural ability to play all three positions, but he's so inexperienced and raw right now that it will take him some time to adjust to reading coverages on the fly and adjusting. Long term, he could bring the type of physical play that Jordy Nelson brings to the table.

    Just of note, while he doesn't have the best RAC ability, a big reason why the team would like to resign Brian Hartline is that he is a quality receiver that has a high IQ and can play all three spots. Personally, I don't see the infatuation with Mike Wallace. Yes, he's a big time down the field receiver, but do you really want to pay a limited vertical threat $10 million plus a season? We can likely resign Hartline for $5 million per season.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Jennings, Nelson, and Cobb are all sponges in that regard IIRC.
     
  20. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    IMO, while I'm not going to say that he will never be anything more, Wheaton is the Mike Wallace of this draft. Right now, I see him as an X receiver only who can run vertical routes and runs a few stops and curls off those routes. When you look at his numbers, the majority of his work comes in the 1-5 yard range or the 20+ yard range. He does very little in the 6-19 yard range, which is where the majority of the work in this offense is going to come.
     
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  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    His stats might display this I agree, but IMO he's a better route runner than that, is a savvy player, seems intelligent, and would likely put in overtime to become multiple position versed b/c he seems like a consummate team player who's eager to take on whatever the coaches throw at him. IMO he has the potential to be a better and more diverse route runner than Wallace. just my 2 cents.
     
  22. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You'd rather sleep in the weeds.
     
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  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    IMO, the closest skill set to Wheaton would be Santonio Holmes.
     
  24. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    This somewhat reduces how much I want the guy I had pegged as the second WR I wanted in the second round (the first being Stedman Bailey): Terrance Williams.

    Not versatile enough, IMO.

    But definitely scares safeties and keeps them out of the box.
     
  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the article would be pretty valuable to re-post on the main forum for the people who are preoccupied with the idea of a "#1" wide receiver.
     
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  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Excellent idea....and done.
     
  27. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Do they have no #1s or multiple WRs who are or are close to being #1s? All four are deep threats imo. Jordy Nelson has wheels, Jones has wheels, Jennings has wheels and Cobb has wheels plus excellent quicks. They all can stretch a defense and have quicks, Nelson maybe more of a size/speed guy. They can attack a passing defense from multiple angles, more power to them, but I would take any of the Packers top 4 WRs over any WR that we have, and they have better TEs as well, not to mention Rodgers. That is a talnted quartet, and I've been a fan of James Jones for a while, and he had more TD receptions last year than Bess has in his career, more than double Hartline's career total. His 34 career TDs are almost double the NFL career output of Bess/Hartline combined (18).

    No matter how you cut it imo we need WRs who can stretch the defense and score TDs- make plays. If you want to call that #1 WR traits, that's fine. But when you have opposing Safeties sneaking up in the box and WRs that can't score TDs or get open deep all that often, there's a problem there. Call it whatever you want, just get better speed out wide to keep the offense from getting constricted and get some play makers, the labeling of #1 isn't as important as getting the job done, and the Packers do it by committee with four solid WRs, which is not a bad way to go.
     
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  28. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    The next step is to hope that some of those who read it can understand it. All the clamoring for Wallace and a #1 receiver has me nervous about the fate of the board should the Dolphins have the audacity to pick someone else either in free agency, or in the draft - as in Cameron! - or for that matter when Saban picked Allen @ 17 (IIRC). And, heaven forfend that the collective brain trust in the war room should decide to pick an OT.

    The other thing that disturbs me is the lack of understanding that the Dolphins have changed the recipe for the team four times since the abdication of Wannstedt - and are in their second year of the fourth change - four different head coaches in 9 years. This team has had no stability at all, and the fan base has sometimes been about as stable as a liberty boat load of drunken sailors in a Marseilles cathouse. Everybody is a flaming expert about how to fix the team, when in truth, there about six (maybe) people on the board with any real idea about how to do it, several who may have a fair idea - and the rest of us haven't got a flamin' clue!

    Excuse me... I am heading into rant territory - and I don't trust myself there.

    TTFN
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Greg Jennings has spent about half his time in the slot, the last few years. Just thought I'd add that in there.
     
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  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm going to have to agree with Alen in that I'm not seeing much in these that don't apply for most offenses in the NFL.

    As much as we talk about versatility, Jordy Nelson and James Jones each spent only 7% of their time in the slot this year. Last year that was higher but still only ~9%.

    As much as we talk about the lack of a #1 in the offense, in 2007 Donald Driver had 122 targets and the next closest receiver had 85. In 2010, Greg Jennings had 125 targets and the next most popular receiver had only 87 targets. And in 2008, things were lopsided toward Jennings (139 targets) and Driver (115 targets) and the next most popular receiver had only 55 targets. Similar in 2009 (118 + 112 ===> 71). This hardly paints the picture of egalitarianism that is most often painted based on 2011 & 2012.

    From what I've seen the most interesting aspect of their offense from the standpoint of the receivers is how quickly their receivers flow from one break to the next. I guess the coaching term for that is probably tagging as I think Alen is alluding to.

    If there is a real mental barrier to entry for young receivers (which I think is in some ways more imagined than real) then it's probably due to that.
     
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  31. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Nelson was a 4.51 guy in the forty. Jones was a 4.56 guy. Only Jennings had legitimate forty speed witha 4.42, and even he was not considered much of a vertical threat coming out. What these guys have is great short area quickness, which is a characteristic that is much more important than straight line speed in this offense.
     
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  32. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Jones always seemed faster than that to me, but there is some very good quickness in that WR crew. Here's something interesting on Jordy Nelson:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSXOjOcE3Aw

    I'd still like to see more speed- Bess is quick but not fast and and Hartline isn;t particularly fast or quick. Rishard Matthews may have the best combo, but we certainly need to improve speed and play making capabilities imo.
     
  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I don't entirely agree with that. They all have decent to good long speed in pads. If they didn't they'd be getting caught from behind all the time just like 4.52 Hartline does. Jennings might not have been considered "much a vertical threat" in college but he definitely was one in the NFL; he had outstanding football speed. I already noted Jordy Nelson owns Kansas's 3A 100 Meter record at 10.63. That's speed.

    BTW, I remember during Nelson's first or second year that Philbin said he wanted Jordy versed at all 3 receiver positions.
     
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  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    That's why I think it's useful to have a "top speed" stat for wide receivers.

    A 40 time includes the start from the blocks.

    What we care about is if he will be caught from behind once he's already running.

    Top speed.
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    perhaps if they clocked their MPH as they cross the 40 to see what their top end speed looks like.
     
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  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The Combine Report will give 10 and 20 yd splits, so you could subtract the 20 yd split from the 40 to see if they ran faster the final 20 than the first 20. If that's what one is looking for.
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    In Kansas he only has to run downwind against Dorothy, Toto, and a couple of milk cows and a plow horse. They don't allow donkeys on Kansas farms for obvious reasons.
     
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  38. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's too much math. :p
    I'd like to be able to click on a player and quickly see what his top end speed is.
     
  39. CD13

    CD13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We need a WR that has a knack for the redzone. If Hartline caught 10 TD's, no one would be talking about this.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Well if he continues with 1 per year for the next 4 years...... err did you mean 10 in one season?
     

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