1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Proof of Heaven

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by RickyNeverInhaled, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I know Heaven is real as well as everything in the bible from experiences in my own life. I wish I could say I currently have a relationship with God now, but the truth is that I currently don't because I have chosen not to. Hopefully that will change soon.
    With all that being said, the reason I started this thread is to let people know about a new book that's out called "Proof of Heaven". I just watched the author of the book get interviewed. He is a nuero-surgeon that was not a religious person. He went into a coma for a week and his book explains how he visited Heaven for a week. I know there are similar books through out the years about the same thing, but this book sparks my interest because it happened to an unbeliever who was a nuero-surgeon. He explains there was no way it could have been a dream or his imagination or anything like that because his brain was completely shut down. Of all people, I have to believe he knows what he's talking about when he talks about the condition his brain was in because of the type of coma he was in.
    Any way, I haven't read the book. I just found out about it and i plan on buying it. Just thought people from this forum would find it interesting and would want to buy it. Maybe if this thread is still around and people have a chance to read the book, we can further discuss it.
     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I saw the same interview. He was very sincere and not anything like what I expected when I first heard of the book.

    As to your walk, I hope you will get back to it. It is never about us but about the God who loves us.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I guess what I don't understand, is the need for believers to prove their faith.

    That, going by the definition of the words, "faith", "belief", "fact", "truth", etc. indicates its the sign of weak faith not strong faith. The very definition of faith means you can't know it for a fact. Once you do know something as a provable fact, its no longer something you can have faith in.

    Faith is the point of a religion. The faith in the unknowable, is where people get their comfort who are religious.
     
    ToddPhin, Boik14 and Ohiophinphan like this.
  4. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I agree completely. I am happy RICKY has found comfort in the book but I have no intention of reading it. For me, my faith is about my service to God here and now. Trying to bring God's Kingdom to people who need to see it.

    I suppose everybody enjoys a little "See I told you so!!!" so stories of "proof" will always be with us.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  5. Fishweiser

    Fishweiser New Member

    864
    347
    0
    Apr 24, 2009
    Thats actually a good question, and one Ive never even asked myself. I tend to be drawn to story's like this , or ones that seem to prove the bible to right. I think its because I chose to be a christian and I want to be a christian for many different reasons. I want believe 100%, but doubts shadow always seems to be there. I think since its there, it makes me feel like Im failing or that all I've striven for might be crumbling in some way. Its easy to discredit a lot of the bible, like Jonahs whale and such, so its impossible to go through life with out questioning. When you hear others question it as well, it really adds to the shadow. With that, I think examples of things that add to the strength of my faith are ways to counter act my doubts or counter act others who have kinda made me feel like a kid believing in Santa clause or tooth fairy's and such.

    See heres the thing, ask me if I believe in the Bible and Ill say yes....but at the same time, in my mind Im like " do I really? how can I be sure? Theres alot of fantastic stories..." ...from there, if you listen to non believers and why, they make a much better case than the bible.....Then your left asking your self " am I really a christian? Is everything Ive tried to be failed?"

    Being a christian is pretty difficult, so any proof weather perceived or not, goes along way!
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    If you doubt your faith, then finding facts won't solve that.

    There can be no facts in faith, if there are, it is no longer faith. Don't look for facts, don't listen to us non believers when we try and debunk the Bible. Faith is personal to you, and should not be affected if I can prove Noah ever existed or not.

    I would say, if you are really having a hard time, maybe you need to investigate other Christian denominations or even other non Christian religions. I don't think faith is supposed to be hard, though I could be wrong about that.
     
    Fishweiser likes this.
  7. Fishweiser

    Fishweiser New Member

    864
    347
    0
    Apr 24, 2009
    And thats true, thats what Ive come to learn the meaning of faith. Faith is kind what bridges the dooubt. Say there was a million dollar bet on whether god was real, or that heaven exists and there was a rock solid way of prooving it. I would put my money on that they do exist....I would be a very nervous though...very, very nervous. I mean theres a billion to 1 reasons to doubt religion via science and just everyday common sense even. I dont think theres much to rise above that other than to just go with it. Ive come to figure thats just how its going to be if Im going to be a christian. Its nothing new really, its just part of the struggle.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I'm no expert, but it sounds like you are having a crisis of faith. Have you talked to any of the preachers in your faith?
     
    Fishweiser likes this.
  9. Fishweiser

    Fishweiser New Member

    864
    347
    0
    Apr 24, 2009
    Well, Ohiophinphans the only person of faith Ive had contact with actually. LOL!! But maybe Im wrong, but the way I figured it, most people, no matter what religion have some sort of struggle with doubt. That would just seem normal. Im always tempted to feel that if a person never had doubt, or struggle then they are not being truthful or maybe they are a little off their rocker LOL!!...Hope that doesn't offend anyone, because Im open to being wrong about that, its just where my perspective leads me to. I just have a hard time imagining a religious person with absolutely no shadow of a doubt. Now, I can see people using faith to bridge it all, because thats basically what I do....again thats kinda how I perceive it all...Now if Im wrong, then it would be because of perceptions that are new to me.
     
    Ohiophinphan and Fin D like this.
  10. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I wouldn't call it a crisis of faith. I've read lots of religious biographies and many describe similar stories.

    I would suggest that a fruitful direction of study might be the difference between fact and truth. The post enlightment world wants us to think the two are the same but the world in which the Bible was written was not burdened by such limited categories.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  11. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    There are certainly different levels of faith. The bible says we have been given a measure of faith. The bible talks about different people and describes different levels of faith like "you of little faith", "a man of great faith" ect. I don't think Christians need any further proof of God or Heaven. But there are things that can increase or decrease different areas of faith. I believe all of the bible but there are certain verses of the bible that I have personally really believed and seen results, there are other verses of the bible that are harder for me to personally believe and have results. You can take the same verse in the bible with 2 people that believe it one might have instant faith and get healed from belief in that verse backed by the beilief that Jesus made that verse possible. That one person applies that faith and gets healed while the other may not. It might take the other person several years or it may never happen but its still real and still true and still believed by both.
    I guess what I am trying to say is that the certain thing is that the bible is real and Jesus already paid the price and "it is finished". The difference is the faith that is applied by people in what "is finished" so to speak.
    Faith goes both ways. I believe fear is faith pointed in the wrong direction. Some people have greater faith for bad things to happen. Job said what I have feared happened to me, what I dreaded came upom me.
    Some people believe "I always get sick around this time of year" and it happens like clock work. If those same people would take that faith and apply it to something good they would have great faith for good things as opposed to bad things.
    Just my 2 cents.
    I just brought up the book because I thought people would find it interesting. It something I would usually use if my walk with God was back on track as a wittnessing tool. Plus its always nice to have further insight of something people believe but have never seen. Personally the book wouldn't make me believe in Heaven any more than I already do.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  12. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    Its normal. One thing is certain to me, being a former reverend and being a person that was used by God to set people free from demons, our thoughts are not just our thoughts. Some thoughts are our own, some are from God (Holy Spirit) and many are from demons. Its the nature of living in this world. There will always be doubt. Its a constant struggle that only gets easier as you differentiate and where thoughts are coming from and you reject any thought from the enemy and accept Godly thoughts. The bible says to take every thought captive. That is our struggle. If you want doubt to decrease and faith to increase you have to take every thought captive and reject any thought that doesn't line up with the Word of God. Just like Jesus did when he was tempted by satan. Sometimes its hard because the devil is tricky.
     
  13. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Let me throw a different twist into this discussion.

    I would simply draw your attention to two things. First of all, despite the importance of faith, especially in the New Testament, no one, not Jesus, not Paul, not any of the disciples/evangelists ever tell us how to get more!? Curious huh????

    Secondly, while the classic translation of the Greek has been faith IN Jesus, more and more scholars are suggesting it should read faith OF Jesus! That then suggests a more Orthodox view of the Jesus event and that we are made right before God when we are merged into or grafted onto Jesus.
     
  14. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

    15,863
    6,275
    113
    Dec 12, 2007
    Evans, GA
    Discussions of faith aside the book sounds very interesting to me.
     
  15. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I agree. There are certainly different levels of faith described in the Bible. And I"ve studied what you have said about the translations of "in" and "of". I agree. I think the difference in the level of faith that are described in the bible is like the verse "i must decrease and He must increase" the more we give in to Christ in us the more faith will be evident because its the faith of Jesus in us.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  16. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I just don't want to come across as a hypocrite if you ever see the way i act in other forums like the political forum for instance. lol.
    That's why i made the statement I made in my original post. I am very knowledgeable about what we are talking about in this thread but i have also noted that I really no longer have a relationship with God anymore. I hope to change that soon. But I just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of that if you assume I am a devout christian by things i say in this thread as opposed to the way i act in other forums, mainly just the political forum. lol I seem to get fired up in the political forum.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I guess I don't understand this line of thinking. Even with faith, shouldn't people want to be able to turn that faith into fact?
     
  18. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I agree. I have faith in a chair everytime i sit on one. I don't see faith as just a religious thing. facts can be found in all sorts of faith including religious ones. Believing the bible can be thought of as faith and many facts of the bible have been discovered.
     
  19. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

    13,006
    6,368
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    NJ
    If you believe in God, and Heaven after life, why are you not doing everything to serve him? It's a small investment if you think about it. 80-90 years versus an eternity? No brainer.


    Sent from my iPhone
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No.

    Look at the definitions of faith and fact. They are mutually exclusive. The moment you have facts, faith stops.
     
  21. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    Believe me I know. Divorce made me bitter. Its no excuse but that's when I quit seving God. Like I said I hope to change that soon.
     
  22. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    In part I believe we are all using "faith" in multiple ways. Ricky talks about having faith in a chair that it will not collapse when he sits on it. Many are talking about faith as it is used in the Bible and even there variations exist. That causes confusion.

    To me faith is something given to us by God in our created make-up. It can become more or less "evident" (good phrase Ricky) as we more or less surrender our will to God's will. That is not so much provable as observable in behavior.
     
  23. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    Thanks. I agree we are all talking about different kinds of faith. In the sense you are talking about now I think results of faith can be seen and faith in action can be heard and in the rare occassions that people can see into a spiritual realm it can be seen. But for the most part with those exceptions I agree with what you are saying and its most likely what Fin D is talking about as well.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Sort of.

    You used an example earlier about a chair. You said you had faith every time you sat in one. That's not really true.

    You know the chair is going to hold you. You sat in it before and it held you. That is fact. There may come a time the chair you sit in, fails apart. That will be because of facts you weren't privy to, like age of the chair or a weakness in a joint. If you knew those things before, you wouldn't sit in it. But it wouldn't be because you lost faith in the chair, it would be because you knew for a fact there was a crack in the leg.

    Now if you happened upon an object that you didn't know what it was or made of, but decided to sit on it, that might require some faith. However, if it held you while you sat in it, you no longer have faith in it, now you know it will hold you.
     
  25. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I think what you are saying implies there is no need for faith when your faith discovers something real, true, and factual. I think there is never a reason to quit believing something just because you believe in something that becomes a fact in your life. Specially in a spiritual sense when faith brings good things in your life.
    Maybe I am going to the extreme of what you're saying. I feel like if I took what you said as advice it would make me give up on faith. know what i mean?
    Speaking about the chair again, i feel like its faith that makes me keep sitting in the same chair over and over again.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Nope. I am saying it is impossible to have faith and know something for a fact. The second you know something for a fact it stops being faith. Its like an email message. It cannot be read and unread at the same time. An email message is unread up until the very second you read it.

    And I am not advocating giving up faith. I'm defending faith actually. Because, again, the second you prove something to be true, it is impossible to have faith in its existence.
     
  27. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    I understand what you're saying now since you threw in the word existence.
    In other words in a spiritual context once someone starts a relationship with God they no longer need faith in God's existence but they still need faith for many different reasons throughout their walk with God.
    Do you concur?
    I like asking people if they concur ever since I saw the movie Catch me if you can. lol
     
  28. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    Notre Dame is undefeated....!!!!

    /thread!
     
  29. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    You might win an award for the most random post of the year. lol
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    There is no proof heaven is real. You say you know it is real, but you have no actual proof. You choose to believe in it because in your mind it gives you comfort and makes you feel good. Yes, there may be a heaven and there may be a god who created everything from the beginning of eternity until forever, but there is no tangible proof in the existence or non existence of either.

    I tend to agree with the words of one Thomas Jefferson, when he said: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

    You say you believe in god, but do you believe in the Greek god Zeus? I'd guess not. Well, there is as much proof, or lack thereof, in his existence as there is in the existence, or not, of the god of any of the Abrahamic religions.

    You give the impression that the Christian bible is important to you. Yet, you were totally against the candidate for president who follows the same basic religion as you claim to, and chose instead to vote for a man who's religion professes that god lives with Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith on some faraway planet called Kolob. They also believe, or some of them anyway, that earth was created near Kolob over a period of 6000 years, and then moved to its present position in our solar system. Wow, that sounds really logical. lol.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  31. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

    6,771
    1,680
    113
    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    Zues has never healed anyone or transformed anyone's life from the inside out.
    As far as politics, one party holds more christian biblical standards than the other. A canidate's or a President's religion is irrelevent IMO as long as the majority of their policies don't go against the morals and policies that I believe are best for the country, they have my vote. There is no such thing as a perfect President or a perfect canidate.
     
  32. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    Zeus gave birth through his skull once. Does that count?
     
  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You have no proof of that. I would say it is a very safe bet you don't know the life stories of every Greek who worshiped Zeus. It's not likely though, I would agree. Just as it is not likely any invisible man in the sky from any skygod religion has ever transformed anyone's life, other than their own imaginings in their own minds.

    As for your sorry Republicans I sure do not see anything at all more Christ-like in their beliefs or policies than I see in the Democrats. If Christ of the New Testament were alive today he would not be rubbing elbows with the freakazoids who permeate the power structure of the GOP. Jesus was a liberal socialist.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts

    Then by all means, regale us with stories from Greek Mythology of Zeus healing anyone.

    Agreed, he'd also not accept such behavior but instead would offer a better way of life.

    As for the political stuff, when any mention of the Divine was added into the D platform, they convention goers literally boo'd.
     
  35. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    MrClean, why do you feel such a need to insult those of us with faith? Is your life so full you need to denigrate ours?

    I would also question your chracterazation of Jesus. Even if you are correct, we Christians believe Him to be the living Son of God. His sinless life may be a model for us but we Christians also understand the reality of evil in life and thus a socialist or capitalist, or communist, or colonialist or...... system will be thus infected by the sinfulness of the people espousing it. This is at the core of the question asked in the "Do we need God to be good" thread.

    I am not a republican nor have I voted that way in a general election since the first Bush. Political parties and the Kingdom of God are important but not interchangable.
     
    padre31 likes this.
  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well OhioP, to me this is supposed to happen, as Christ said "..don't be surprised if the world hates you, remember it hated me first"
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    LOL. Well, I do not have any such tales. My point though was Ricky has no proof that he didn't. Basically, no proof either way.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    If he takes the word of the man at the start of thread for proof he does.

    Eyewitness testimony is valid in any court of law.

    My point is not to condescend or what have you rather to point out that "proof" consists of more than what one can objectively examine based on physical evidence.

    As a further aside, I can now see the genius of the founders when they did not want religion and govt to mix, imo clergy has done a disservice to the faith by being identified with a political party.

    Now it is sort of "Oh he's a Democrat he can't be a Christian" or "oh she's an R she must be a Christian" such a close identification of faith with a political party is a detriment to that faith imo.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I am expressing my opinion. I do not try to tell any believer in a supreme being that their opinions in the existence of such is insulting to me. Are only believers in a supreme being allowed to express their opinions on this forum?
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  40. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The word of someone else does not constitute eyewitness testimony for the person repeating it. Also, I was referring to Zeus. I don't believe the person referred to in the OP said anything about Zeus. I said Ricky has no proof either way as to whether Zeus transformed anyone's life.

    Proof, other than physical evidence may satisfy your requirements, but IMO, one should not feel offended if others do not accept your belief or faith in something unprovable as proof of anything.

    One other thing about eyewitness testimony in court. That in of itself is the weakest form of evidence, when compared to physical evidence. One perfect example is the from the classic movie 12 Angry Men. 11 jurors were ready to convict an innocent boy based on eyewitness testimony. The efforts by Juror 8 to force the other 11 to more closely examine the evidence, caused them to rethink their positions.
     

Share This Page