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Phins making a go at Josh Gordon?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SargeZ33, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There should be a question mark at the end of the thread title. There's no information suggesting the Dolphins are in fact "making a go at Josh Gordon".
     
  2. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Is there a workout portion of the Supp. Draft or is it a crapshoot? Considering many of these guys are off significant time and tape is limited coupled with the lack of a combine or pro-day workout, the supplemental draft seems like a huge gamble.
     
  3. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    Gordon scheduled a workout this week. I think it is one Tuesday if I remember correctly.

    I wouldn't want to draft Gordon before the 4th and I think someone will take him in the 3rd.
     
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  4. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    I could see us using a 3rd. We have an extra from the Marshall trade.
     
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  5. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Rather see how our stable of WR's develop under new staff this season and have that 3rd rounder available next April because:
    1. the kid would require equal or more development than several similar WR's now on our roster.
    2. Next April we may not need a WR or there may be a better WR available.
    3. Philbin/Ireland & staff will know a lot more what they need with the extra 3rd round pick next April.

    Pass, unless the kid drops to a 4-5 at best.
     
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  6. pennphinfan

    pennphinfan Stelin Canez Arcade Scorz

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    I like this guys potential and all but how many rookie/project WRs are we gonna keep realistically? Between cunningham matthews gates Moore Wallace and fuller, already only 1 or 2 of those will make the team behind Hartline Bess nannee and ochocinco. Granted you can stash a couple on the PS but we are already looking at cutting a bunch of these guys so unless they really think highly of this guy its gonna be hard to prove himself in the short time before cuts start
     
  7. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    We're talking about someone who is bigger, faster, and stronger than Kendall Wright who went in the first round. I would take him over Mathews and Cunningham. Moore and Wallace haven't really shown me anything in the past. He would be our tallest WR next to Wallace.
     
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  8. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why would anyone be content with our current corp of wrs? I realize the issue with reps and opportunity, and loyality and so forth. But there are not many guys with this skill set currently on the roster (if you look at size and speed).
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    My report on Gordon, from another thread:

    WR Josh Gordon, Baylor-Utah

    Quick Points
    *Josh Gordon was a 2 star recruit (Scout.com) out of Lamar High School in Texas, right in the back yard of Texas A&M.
    *He was listed 6'4" and 215 lbs coming out of high school, supposedly running a 4.55 in the 40 yard dash.
    *Had interest from Big 12 and Big Ten schools. Offers from Nebraska, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Baylor, Kansas & Missouri. Michigan had heavy interest.
    *His top two schools ended up Mike Sherman's Texas A&M and Art Briles' Baylor. He chose Baylor over A&M.
    *He had a 2.5 GPA in High School and a 21 on the ACT.
    *Spent 2009 on the bench as a true freshman, amassing only 1 catch for 7 yards.
    *Broke out in 2010 as a true sophomore catching 42 balls for 714 yards (17.0 YPC) and 7 TDs. Kendall Wright had 72 catches for 953 yards and 7 TDs.
    *Worked almost exclusively on the right side of the formation out on the perimeter as a starter, playing nearly every snap.
    *Size ranges between 6'3" and 6'4", at around 220 or 225 lbs. Listed size appears legit on tape.
    *Speed ranges from mid 4.4's to reports of running in the 4.3's in practice. Speed appears legit on tape.
    *Has legit acceleration and foot quickness to go with speed, is not a build-up speed/long-strider type.
    *Is as strong and physical as you would hope a guy that big would be, really bullies DBs as a blocker, explosive punch, highly motivated.
    *Limited role in 2010, perimeter-only, ran essentially three routes plus screens. Terrence Williams and Kendall Wright were varied more in usage.
    *Clean hands catcher, showed the ability to track and haul in the over the shoulder ball.
    *Good acceleration and excellent physicality after the catch. Effective on screens.
    *Ability to get off the line at the snap and eat cushion stands out, tough for even 4.43 guys to cover deep one on one.
    *Suspended indefinitely for an incident where he was arrested in a car that had a small amount of marijuana in it.
    *Chose to leave Baylor and transfer to Utah because of the incident. Sat out the 2011 season as result of transfer.
    *Daniel Jeremiah (Twitter: @MoveTheSticks) recalled seeing him at 2011 Utah practices and hearing coaches praise him highly.
    *Will work out for scouts on July 10th, 2012. Supplemental Draft to be held July 12th, 2012.

    NEW UPDATES
    *Utah coach on Josh leaving the program: "It wasn't the right situation for Josh so we parted ways." (Eric Galko, Optimum Scouting)

    *Baylor coach on Josh: "I'll tell you what I've been telling the NFL: Josh is a great kid, super talent, just bad decisions. All the coaches here liked him. He was arrested in October 2010, and suspended 4 quarters, spread out over a couple of games I believe, but then failed a Baylor drug test late last spring. The Baylor administration kicked him out of school for the failed drug test, but Coach Briles went to bat for him with the higher ups, trying to let him stay. Coaches were disappointed about his leaving. Nobody thought he had a problem. It's not like he showed up to meetings or practice high or anything like that. I think he just got around with the wrong people not associated with the football team that persuaded his bad decisions. I'm not aware of any concerns the staff had for him coming out of high school, as his arrest in October 2010 was his first incident. It seemed he got along with everyone on the team and I can't think of any point where he was in confrontation on field or off. If football is all he has to focus on, then he'll thrive because he knows this is his last chance. I've gotten a lot of calls from NFL scouts about him, so I know there's a lot of interest. I haven't talked to any one team more than others. But I will say that a head coach has inquired about him." (Eric Galko, Optimum Scouting)

    *Reports filtering through that he left school because of FINANCIAL NEED and that he also explored the possibility of transferring yet again back closer to home (remember he played high school ball at Lamar High School, TX) at Houston or Stephen F. Austin. Gordon's agent is the same one that convinced Jevan Snead to leave school early. (Eric Galko, Optimum Scouting)

    *In order to successfully appeal to the NFL for entrance to the Supplemental Draft on the basis of financial need, Josh Gordon would have had to show that something significant happened between January and June that drastically changed his financial situation. (Eric Galko, Optimum Scouting)

    My take: I love his talent. It reminds me of someone like Vincent Jackson. There is latent, under-appreciated RAC talent and a vicious blocker with solid hands and strong upper body all hidden inside him. We only last saw the guy play in 2010 as a true sophomore running limited roles in Art Briles' system. He could be up whole levels compared with what he was back then, after a year of practicing with the Utes. Having some idea how he's grown in that year should be key for whichever team drafts him, whether that means contacts at Utah, scouts personally having witnessed him practice, or just private workouts leading up to the Supplemental Draft. A team will also have to get comfortable with him off the field and have their arms wrapped around why he's leaving Utah after sitting out his transfer year. It's bad enough he ran away from Baylor after getting caught with marijuana. The Supplemental Draft is viewed pretty skeptically by the NFL, so his stock is likely to be compared more with the likes of Tommy Streeter than the likes of Stephen Hill. Production, history, character and experience level all point more to Streeter than Hill. But he's better than Streeter in my opinion, quicker off the line, more physical, more controlled, cleaner. If Streeter was taken in the 6th then I would think Gordon should go in the 4th or 5th. However, teams often bump grades down a round out of pure caution when it comes to the Supplemental Draft, so his base grade is more likely to be a 5th or 6th. I say base grade because character dig-up will affect it, as will how clear vision individual teams feel they have for how he evolved during his stay with Utah. Like I said that can either be achieved by having your west scout pound the table for the guy and say he's had his eye on this kid a long time and viewed him as one of his top receivers heading into 2012, or it can be achieved with a blowout private workout.

    Dolphins take: Mike Sherman has some amount of experience with Gordon from having recruited him, and highly esteemed west scout Adam Engroff has doubtless been checking up on him since he transferred from Baylor to Utah. The Dolphins have been rumored to be sniffing around Kashif Montgomery, which means they're interested in another developmental prospect, perhaps specifically a fast and physically dynamic one, and so that puts them in the market for Gordon. I would not expect them to offer more than a 5th or 6th, though.

    YouTube Plays

    From the 2010 Texas Bowl, Illinois vs Baylor:

    Screen catch for very little yardage, didn't seem to be expecting the ball
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=87s

    Watch how fast he gets off the blocks and down the field (btw, what an unpleasant looking woman...)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=98s

    Seemed like this should've been called P.I. since it was 10 yards down the field. No catch...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=132s

    Strong blocking for a receiver that comes in behind him...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=169s

    Blocked his man into tomorrow on this play...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=201s

    Screen catch and run for about 10 yards on 1st down, strong acceleration, good finish...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=220s

    Runs a 12 yard curl route against off coverage, DB forced to back pedal aggressively, lots of separation, no throw...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=226s

    Look how far the corners are playing off the Baylor perimeter WRs on 2nd & 10, respecting deep ability...ridonkulous...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=244s

    Short catch with a good 5 yards of run after catch, including 3 yards after contact
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=252s

    Catch off the scramble with a DB on him immediately for the tackle
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=260s

    Corner plays 7 yards off the ball and turns hips early, Gordon still creates downfield separation, ball overthrown
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=281s

    Key block on a touchdown run to his side
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=329s

    One-on-one downfield with CB Travon Bellamy, draws the P.I. flag
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=345s

    Catch on a scramble drill against Bellamy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=404s

    Another catch on an ill-timed throw, no run-after-catch because of timing
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=413s

    Nice out route catch against future standout CB Terry Hawthorne
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=493s

    Nice fake on Hawthorne, ball not thrown to him
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=520s

    Accidentally trips up his own runner trying to block for him
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r456mWHvt_c#t=578s


    From a collection of 2010 Baylor football highlights:

    Two consecutive plays...over the shoulder touchdown catch...impressive run after catch touchdown
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gyePs2_yJB0#t=164s

    Long vertical touchdown reception versus K-State
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gyePs2_yJB0#t=264s

    Deep vertical touchdown (I think versus TCU)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gyePs2_yJB0#t=369s

    Another more impressive deep vertical touchdown versus TCU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gyePs2_yJB0#t=406s

    Another deep touchdown
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gyePs2_yJB0#t=446s


    From the 2010 Kansas game:

    Deep touchdown catch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-lbNdQAzVzg#t=21s

    Big block on a screen
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-lbNdQAzVzg#t=50s

    94 yard touchdown catch and run off the screen
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-lbNdQAzVzg#t=71s

    Big catch and run
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-lbNdQAzVzg#t=95s


    From the Buffalo-Baylor 2010 game:

    Screen catch and run...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6i3Ub-1hs78#t=328s


    From the Oklahoma State game 2010:

    Screen catch and run, ball stripped, fumble recovered by Cowboys
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZHzARaArg1M#t=26s
     
    UCF FINatic, HULKFish, Mr772 and 3 others like this.
  10. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    NFL.com has a story saying either the Cowboys or the Redskins are giving a 3rd for him.
    On phone or id post link.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Evan Silva had a report that an NFC East team was prepared to use a 3rd on him. Cecil Lammey's sources tell him the Redskins' interest is marginal but the Cowboys' interest is heavy, so I'm assuming the Cowboys are the team prepared to use a 3rd. The Dolphins should have a higher draft order than the Cowboys though, and so if Miami wants to submit a 3rd rounder I believe they'd get Gordon.

    But now I'm hearing talk he could even go in the 2nd round which seems crazy to me. I like the guy's talent, compare him to Vincent Jackson, but there's so much you don't know when he's only played one year in a limited role. Even taking aside the multiple marijuana incidents, and the mysterious leaving of Utah for "financial reasons"...there's a lot of unknown when it comes to the guy's aptitude for learning the position at the NFL level.

    I love that he's fast, big, strong, explosive, a clean hands catcher that can catch over the shoulder, and he runs very controlled...but that's about all you can see on the limited amount of tape.
     
  12. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    A 3rd round pick in the supplemental draft is silly. A 2nd round pick is just flat out gun-to-the-head-don't-kill-me-man desperation.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Depends on the prospect. There are those that feel Josh Gordon would easily have been a 1st or 2nd round prospect if he stayed at Utah. It's hard to tell which underclassmen will leave and which will not, but looking at the senior receivers...I think Terrance Williams might be better, I think Aaron Mellette might be better...but is Ryan Swope better? Cobi Hamilton? Tavon Austin? I know Chad Reuter just got done posting that he doesn't see any 2nd round receivers that he particularly likes over Josh Gordon.

    Crazy was when the Raiders used a 2nd rounder on Terrelle Pryor. That was insane.
     
  14. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    ouch, was it really a 2nd ? i thought it was a 3rd....but the jury is still out on him, but for josh gordon i hope we pass, just looking at the track record of Sup. drafted players, its more often bust than boom
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Gordon in the 3rd sounds about right, and makes a lot of sense beyond needing a WR and having an extra 3rd.

    There's an advantage in drafting a guy now as opposed to(or even in addition to) later. It's nice to start grooming a guy now rather than picking someone up in reaction to how Johnson/Bess/Hartline pan out next year. You're ahead of schedule on development, and you're in a good position now where you can reasonably get a player on the field while not being put in a position where you have to.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know, I forget, it might have been a 3rd. Whichever it was, it was crazy.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If it's true that Miami has been sniffing around Kashif Montgomery and is ready to sign him then you could see them try and draft Gordon.
     
  18. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    Same thing with the regular draft though lol. Recent players who succeeded from the Supplemental draft include Ahmad Brooks and Jared Gaither; why they haven't been superstars I think they justified where they were selected.


    PS- Pryor was a 3rd rounder
     
  19. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A 3rd-rounder for a WR with limited experience, very limited production, makes poor decisions, and will most likely compete against 7 or 8 other WRs currently on the Dolphins roster for the #5 spot on the depth chart? Including two wideouts the Phins just gave up 5th and 7th round picks for not even 3 months ago?

    Yeah, sure... why not? The Phins are only one WR away from the Superbowl, and they definitely have draft picks to burn. Amirite? :shifty:


    All kidding aside... I think he's a very interesting prospect for a playoff-contending team with the luxury of an expendable draft pick. If I were Ireland, I'd pass.
     
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know that I agree the Dolphins are in a position where they should be shying away from raw. If anything, there's a longer timetable for a guy like this to develop before expectations come to a head and honeymoon's are considered to be "over".
     
  21. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I rest my case. :lol:
     
  22. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'm willing to give up a third for the guy. Let the QB of the future develop with the potential receivers of the future.
     
  23. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    A clue to our possible interest would be if our scouts have done any scouting on him.I believe he comes from a region where we have pretty good scouting coverage .

    BTW there is an audio scouting report on him at the official site.
    http://www.miamidolphins.com/media/...h-Gordon/b6f88cfe-a61f-4d74-a05a-e98644406434
    Supplemental Draft Preview: WR Josh Gordon


    Baylor radio broadcaster John Morris speaks with The Finsiders to provide a full scouting report on wide receiver Josh Gordon, who is expected by most observers to be selected in the top four rounds of Thursday’s supplemental draft. Learn about Gordon’s best attributes as a receiver.
     
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Pretty terrible 'scouting report' if you ask me. Hate to be picky but he didn't really say anything other than "he's really big and fast"
     
  25. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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  26. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    The media has created a monster IMO. I think they may cause him to be overdrafted.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    This isn't the first time this has happened. Generally speaking a lot of players are talked up during this time and few are drafted. Sometimes a player goes high, however most of the time the Supplemental draft is over without much interest. It just so happens to fall at a time when there is zero football news.
     
  28. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For some people, that's all you have to say.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think you've got it the other way around. I doubt the media has any effect on this. It's the teams that are creating the media monster because they're the ones telling the media that Josh Gordon is the best Supplemental Draft prospect in 15 years, that if he had a great year at Utah he may have been the top WR in the 2013 NFL Draft, etc. If you think there's a lot of bluffing going on during the regular Draft, check out this ultimate bluff situation where the Supplemental Draft actually goes down like a high stakes poker game. Teams submit a "yes" or "no" prior to the start of each round and then find out if anyone took him.
     
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  30. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    On NFLN Network, they just mentioned that he could go in the 2nd or 3rd round.
     
  31. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree. The Phins shouldn't shy away from raw players. I just don't think they're currently in a position to use a high draft pick on this particular raw player.

    However, I will say that I don't know everything there is to know about this guy. If the Phins think he is this special player some are making him out to be... heck, pull the trigger. Point-blank, they better be correct, because that investment all-but-insures him a roster spot, and a team commitment. Add that to the investments they currently have in the WRs he would be competing against... IMO, that's pretty substantial for one guy.

    He better be worth it.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Here are the Supplemental picks taken over the last 20 years:

    1st Round: QB Dave Brown (60 Starts)
    2nd Round: DE Darren Mickell (61 Starts), DT Jamal Williams (138 Starts), OT Mike Wahle (138 Starts), RB Tony Hollings (1 Start)
    3rd Round: DT Darren Benson (0 Starts), LB Ahmad Brooks (24 Starts), DE Jeremy Jarmon (1 Start), QB Terrelle Pryor (0 Starts)
    4th Round: DB Tito Wooten (47 Starts), DB J'Juan Cherry (0 Starts), DB Paul Oliver (12 Starts)
    5th Round: TE John Davis (26 Starts), DT Manuel Wright (0 Starts), OT Jared Gaither (33 Starts)
    6th Round: OG Milford Brown (47 Starts)
    7th Round: DT Josh Brent (0 Starts), RB Harvey Unga (0 Starts)

    To tell you the truth, just eyeballing this, it looks to me like Supplemental prospects are consistently underrated.
     
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  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ran his 40 yard dash in 4.52 seconds, had a 36 inch vertical, 10'1" broad jump, 13 bench reps. Measured 6031 and 224 lbs.

    I consider those good numbers. It seems to me every year that Supplemental picks' workout numbers are worse than regular draft prospects workout numbers. I think they don't get the same training for their workouts that regular guys get. Gordon only just got his approval to be in the Supplemental Draft I think a few weeks ago.

    Ed Wesley for instance ran a 4.72 in the 40 yard dash at his pro day yesterday, and I think if you look at him on tape you'd have to question that number.

    Overall I think that set of numbers is about what I expected for Gordon and they represent good blue jeans numbers, as in the numbers a really good athlete gets just rolling out of bed, putting on his blue jeans and going for a workout.
     
  34. Sippi

    Sippi Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with you. That's a pretty good track record there. I think Steve Walsh was also taken in the Supplemental draft in the late 80's or early 90's.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Evidently he pulled up and hurt his quad during the 40 yard dash, one of the reasons he timed 4.52 instead of what he was expected in the 4.4's.
     
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  36. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    as CK alluded too...

     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    People will make a big deal of the 4.52, I think it's no big deal for a number of reasons.

    1. As Cecil Lammey just confirmed directly from a scout, a 4.5 was expected due to less prep time
    2. It's not that big a deal anyway when a dude is over 6'3" and 224 lbs
    3. He did pull up with the blown tire during the run

    Still, he needed IMO one of those perfect, blessed pro days in order to make good on all this 2nd round talk that people were throwing out there, and obviously blowing a tire during his 40 yard dash, he didn't get that. If I'm Las Vegas I set the over/under on which round he goes at 3.5.
     
  38. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    The more I think about it, the more I start to believe that a team that took two players in the 3rd and 4th rounds with the understanding that it was getting two 1st round talents a year early should be willing to use a 3rd round pick on a supplemental player at a position of need.

    Starting to think Josh Gordon ends up as a Dolphin.
     
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