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Thread: Barry Jackson: Nuggets on Dolphins QB Race

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    Default Barry Jackson: Nuggets on Dolphins QB Race

    A lot of good nuggets in here:

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...y-marlins.html

    I'll paraphrase so as not to run into issues sharing an entire article.

    1. Ryan Tannehill is clearly behind Matt Moore and David Garrard. Even Reggie Bush (who had the quote on an NFL Network segment that suggested he thought Ryan Tannehill would win the job) has admitted that it looks like the plan is to have Moore and Garrard duke it out while Tannehill sits and waits his turn.

    2. (My own notes, not Barry Jackson's) The coaching staff just hasn't given Tannehill the first string snaps to give anyone the impression he's a serious contender. Philbin said before any of these OTAs that he's more concerned about numbers of snaps and not overly concerned about 1st unit, 2nd unit, etc. As I recall, the third day of Mini Camp when Tannehill started with the 1's, that was literally the first time that had happened, as per Tannehill himself as well as others connected with the team.

    3. Ryan Tannehill was so upset about the lack of reps with the 1's he went to the coaches about it in mid-June. They said they're going to start slowly ramping up his reps with the 1st string. The third day of Mini Camp would have probably come after that conversation, based on the timeline.

    4. Most people acknowledge that David Garrard has looked better than Matt Moore on the whole. That includes players, people connected with the team, local media members, national ones like Adam Schefter, and even Drew Rosenhaus. Everyone acknowledges it's way too early to call this one though because training camp is what matters.

    5. "Philbin speaks well of Moore, but his praise of Garrard has been more extensive and effusive the past three months."

    6. Tannehill's issues have been well publicized by now. Strong arm which teammates rave about, but holds the ball and is having trouble with the speed of the game. Didn't take many sacks at TAMU but has taken a lot of would-be sacks in Dolphins camp. Throws the ball too early or late which is leading to interceptions or drops.

    7. Not many around the NFL shared my opinion that Garrard would win the starting job. Rich Gannon, Ron Jaworski, several NFL head coaches and people from the Jaguars all thought for sure Moore would be the guy. People with the Jaguars thought David got "fat and happy" after he got his contract in 2008. But the Dolphins have been impressed with his professionalism and performance.

    8. Several statistics from Garrard in 2010 make him stand out above Moore in 2011: significantly higher completion percentage, way higher 4th quarter passer rating, significantly higher deep ball accuracy when factoring in P.I. flags.

    9. FINALLY someone acknowledges Matt Moore's penchant for fumbling. The Dolphins are, evidently, worried about it.

    10. Garrard's back hasn't caused any problems...YET. Real test will be training camp and preseason.
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    The battle between Moore and Garrard needs to be decided sooner rather than later. Tannehill needs the losers reps.

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    Like I said in another thread....if you have 2 starting QB's, you don't have 1.
    And I think that's the path we're heading down this season. Two QB's (3 if you include Tannehill) who just aren't very good. Couple that with the lack of WR talent and I'm beginning to picture another long season.
    And I'm not talking 7-9 or 6-10 long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhinsRDbest View Post
    The battle between Moore and Garrard needs to be decided sooner rather than later. Tannehill needs the losers reps.
    That's one way to view it but Garrard's back is so uncertain at this point that I don't think that's possible. The Dolphins are stuck in a bit of a quandary that way. The best guy for the job is probably Garrard, if he's healthy. But we have no way to gauge his chances of staying healthy. Nor do the Dolphins.

    But I think since Ryan Tannehill stepped up and asked them for more 1st string reps, the coaches will grant his wish. I tend to doubt Phil Simms' statements about splitting reps between three guys. The Dolphins have more reps than other teams, I think. They're running their practices at a breakneck pace, reportedly the equivalent of snapping a ball with 30+ seconds left on the clock during games. The goal of that is increased reps. I think there are enough reps to go around to still have Tannehill getting his 1st string reps, while seeing whether Moore or Garrard is going to win the battle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    A lot of good nuggets in here:

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...y-marlins.html

    I'll paraphrase so as not to run into issues sharing an entire article.

    1. Ryan Tannehill is clearly behind Matt Moore and David Garrard. Even Reggie Bush (who had the quote on an NFL Network segment that suggested he thought Ryan Tannehill would win the job) has admitted that it looks like the plan is to have Moore and Garrard duke it out while Tannehill sits and waits his turn.

    2. (My own notes, not Barry Jackson's) The coaching staff just hasn't given Tannehill the first string snaps to give anyone the impression he's a serious contender. Philbin said before any of these OTAs that he's more concerned about numbers of snaps and not overly concerned about 1st unit, 2nd unit, etc. As I recall, the third day of Mini Camp when Tannehill started with the 1's, that was literally the first time that had happened, as per Tannehill himself as well as others connected with the team.

    3. Ryan Tannehill was so upset about the lack of reps with the 1's he went to the coaches about it in mid-June. They said they're going to start slowly ramping up his reps with the 1st string. The third day of Mini Camp would have probably come after that conversation, based on the timeline.

    4. Most people acknowledge that David Garrard has looked better than Matt Moore on the whole. That includes players, people connected with the team, local media members, national ones like Adam Schefter, and even Drew Rosenhaus. Everyone acknowledges it's way too early to call this one though because training camp is what matters.

    5. "Philbin speaks well of Moore, but his praise of Garrard has been more extensive and effusive the past three months."

    6. Tannehill's issues have been well publicized by now. Strong arm which teammates rave about, but holds the ball and is having trouble with the speed of the game. Didn't take many sacks at TAMU but has taken a lot of would-be sacks in Dolphins camp. Throws the ball too early or late which is leading to interceptions or drops.

    7. Not many around the NFL shared my opinion that Garrard would win the starting job. Rich Gannon, Ron Jaworski, several NFL head coaches and people from the Jaguars all thought for sure Moore would be the guy. People with the Jaguars thought David got "fat and happy" after he got his contract in 2008. But the Dolphins have been impressed with his professionalism and performance.

    8. Several statistics from Garrard in 2010 make him stand out above Moore in 2011: significantly higher completion percentage, way higher 4th quarter passer rating, significantly higher deep ball accuracy when factoring in P.I. flags.

    9. FINALLY someone acknowledges Matt Moore's penchant for fumbling. The Dolphins are, evidently, worried about it.

    10. Garrard's back hasn't caused any problems...YET. Real test will be training camp and preseason.
    I think the bolded points are the two interesting ones. I think it is interesting that Tannehill went to the coaches to talk about his lack of rep time with the 1st stringers. To me that indicates that he wants to succeed, he isn't content with sitting back and watching Moore and Garrard battling it out. So it seems like he has good drive, but on the other hand it makes him seem kind of whiny. That being said, from every interview of him that I have seen I picture the conversation going like this, "Coach, I would really like to be given a shot with the first team. I want to prove myself to you..." instead of "Coach, it's not fair! I want to get first team reps and you aren't giving them to me (sad face and tears)." I think as a rookie it is a fine line between sitting back and doing what the coaches tell you to do and pushing/asking for more. It seems like he did it with good intentions though as Tannehill is a team player and doesn't really seem like a whiny guy at all.

    The second bold point is also interesting to me. It tells me that his arm and pure ability are what we thought it was prior to the draft (and sort of justifies us taking him so early). As far as timing and decision making and timing that is usually a big problem for rookie QBs and usually takes some time for them to adjust to the NFL speed. That doesn't necessarily worry me just yet, in fact that could have been expected with Tannehill considering how little time started in college. Hopefully he gets better and better as in regards to this as training camp continues. Again, I wouldn't worry about the "would be sacks" because I think I read something earlier that said Philban wanted him to take his time and make the correct reads rather than making wrong decisions faster. This seems like a good way to build a rookie QB. You let them take their time and make the correct decisions over and over then once they feel comfortable with their decision making you just work on having them speed up their decision making and how quickly they get the ball out.

    I like Philban's take that reps in general are more important than reps with specific units (ie: 1st string, 2nd string).
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    Philbin's warning about reps being reps and he doesn't care about 1st/2nd/3rd string too much struck me as trying to preempt conversations that he knew everyone would be happening. The 1st team reps matter. Right now the team is under the mpression Ryan Tannehill is already out of it. That's not a good thing unless he really is. If he suddenly gets elevated the players all think it's because he's the #8 overall, not because he earned it. If you say you're having a three way competition then you should split 1st, 2nd and 3rd string reps three ways.

    Tannehill going to the coaches and complaining is what it is. It shows confidence but it also shows impatience. Some players, depending on what they think Ryan has shown in practice, may even see it as a sense of entitlement in that if he's clearly performing third then it's only fitting the top two get more 1st team reps. It's not just one thing, there isn't just one way to read it, IMO.
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    I'm concerned Tannehill hasn't shown more in the mental command of the game so far. Out of curiosity I went back and read some rookie training camp reports from Aaron Roger's 2005 rookie camp, since I think that would be our best-case scenario dream, that Tanny could develop into an Aaron Rogers.

    The truth is, even at early stages, Rogers was not struggling with decision making. And Tanny is playing in a WCO under the same Offensive Co-Ord who was his college coach, so to me that's a slight red flag in terms of Tanny being an elite prospect down the line. I don;t believe this is solely experience based. I think there's a certain mental/visual acuity abiltiy that some QB's have to read and be decisive quicker than others and Tanny is not way above average in that regard.
    It doesn;t mean Tannehill won;t turn out to be a good QB for us, but I am thinking less like he could be a Manning/Brees/Brady potential (which was wishful thinking, but that's what fans do)... and I am starting to see him more as a guy who could get to a good, not great level with the occasional big year like a Rich Gannon.

    Yeah. it's way early, but I think you can tell a lot from the first few months. The 'issues' these guys have don't change. Dudes known as cerebral noodle arms with good decision making tend to become that in their career. Guys with rocket arms and mental gaffes as a habit tend to stay that way too. Tanny seems to have WR drops and decision making as his burdens. Neither good things for an elite QB. The drops MAY improve as his timing improved, but the decsion making may only go from bad to 'okay'.
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    Based on the general tenor of league opinions of Garrard, if he wins out, I suspect we may not be able to make a justified trade of Matt Moore. If we can get a third, I think I'd make the move though.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingMotion View Post
    Based on the general tenor of league opinions of Garrard, if he wins out, I suspect we may not be able to make a justified trade of Matt Moore. If we can get a third, I think I'd make the move though.
    It would probably be more like a 4th. I honestly think I would trade Moore though. If Garrard holds up through the preseason and we don't feel like carrying three QB's I think we could afford to trade Moore. I think the coaching staff wants Tannehill to play at least a few games this season, sort of like Jake Locker in Tennessee last year. If Garrard goes down chances are it wouldn't be until after the game 6 or so. Plus, I don't know how I would feel if I was Matt Moore as 2nd string and then got leaped by Tannehill if Garrard goes down later in the year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCF FINatic View Post
    It would probably be more like a 4th. I honestly think I would trade Moore though. If Garrard holds up through the preseason and we don't feel like carrying three QB's I think we could afford to trade Moore. I think the coaching staff wants Tannehill to play at least a few games this season, sort of like Jake Locker in Tennessee last year. If Garrard goes down chances are it wouldn't be until after the game 6 or so. Plus, I don't know how I would feel if I was Matt Moore as 2nd string and then got leaped by Tannehill if Garrard goes down later in the year.
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    There is no way in the world we'd get a 3rd or a 4th round pick for Matt Moore. If we tried to trade him, we'd be LUCKY if we got a 6th round pick for him. LUCKY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slickj101 View Post
    Statistics my friend
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingMotion View Post
    Based on the general tenor of league opinions of Garrard, if he wins out, I suspect we may not be able to make a justified trade of Matt Moore. If we can get a third, I think I'd make the move though.
    First off, I'm with you. If someone offered a third for Moore I would be all over it.

    The problem is, we wouldn't get even close to that price. That's not because of his talent necessarily, but the simple fact of the matter is he is on the last year of his contract and we're speculating about a trade happening either on the eve of, during, or after training camp. The value just isn't going to be there for any team.

    Every team in the National Football League currently believes its QB situation is better than Matt Moore, whether it really is or not. Think about it. The Bills think Fitzpatrick is better than Moore. The Jets still believe Sanchez is a franchise quarterback. The Bengals believe Dalton is a franchise quarterback. The Browns believe Weeden is, and took him in the 1st round. The Jaguars still believe Gabbert is a franchise quarterback. I wouldn't doubt the Chiefs believe Cassel is better than Moore. The Raiders certainly feel Palmer is better. The Vikings still believe Ponder is a franchise quarterback. The Bucs are still certain Freeman is, and there are many around the league that agree. The Rams still think Bradford is a franchise quarterback. I'd be willing to bet the Seahawks privately think they have multiple quarterbacks better than Matt Moore.

    Then you just have the Cardinals with Skelton and Kolb, who knows what they really think but after the Kolb thing I doubt they're in a hurry to make a trade for Matt Moore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCF FINatic View Post
    Statistics my friend
    Statistics of 34 year-olds w/bad backs says if they get hurt it'll be after Week 6?

    I think you'd have better luck picking lotto numbers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GARDENHEAD View Post
    There is no way in the world we'd get a 3rd or a 4th round pick for Matt Moore. If we tried to trade him, we'd be LUCKY if we got a 6th round pick for him. LUCKY!
    I think we would get a conditional 6th at best honestly. ANd I doubt anyone makes a move for any QB on our roster.

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    On another note, is Devlin still with the Phins? Loved watching him play at Delaware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    First off, I'm with you. If someone offered a third for Moore I would be all over it.

    The problem is, we wouldn't get even close to that price. That's not because of his talent necessarily, but the simple fact of the matter is he is on the last year of his contract and we're speculating about a trade happening either on the eve of, during, or after training camp. The value just isn't going to be there for any team.

    Every team in the National Football League currently believes its QB situation is better than Matt Moore, whether it really is or not. Think about it. The Bills think Fitzpatrick is better than Moore. The Jets still believe Sanchez is a franchise quarterback. The Bengals believe Dalton is a franchise quarterback. The Browns believe Weeden is, and took him in the 1st round. The Jaguars still believe Gabbert is a franchise quarterback. I wouldn't doubt the Chiefs believe Cassel is better than Moore. The Raiders certainly feel Palmer is better. The Vikings still believe Ponder is a franchise quarterback. The Bucs are still certain Freeman is, and there are many around the league that agree. The Rams still think Bradford is a franchise quarterback. I'd be willing to bet the Seahawks privately think they have multiple quarterbacks better than Matt Moore.

    Then you just have the Cardinals with Skelton and Kolb, who knows what they really think but after the Kolb thing I doubt they're in a hurry to make a trade for Matt Moore.
    Hmm, I think a fifth or a low fourth is plausible, but if Garrard wins outright, he becomes a sixth or seventh. I could maybe see the Bears, Niners, or Cardinals taking him. Bears more so to hedge against Cutler's injury history, the Niners for depth. The Cards only if TC is an absolute disaster. We got Thigpen for a fifth IIRC, so I won't say a low fourth is out of the realm of possibility. It'd most likely have to be a dire situation with the stars aligning and multiple large women singing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolfan32323 View Post
    On another note, is Devlin still with the Phins?
    Yes


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingMotion View Post
    Hmm, I think a fifth or a low fourth is plausible, but if Garrard wins outright, he becomes a sixth or seventh. I could maybe see the Bears, Niners, or Cardinals taking him. Bears more so to hedge against Cutler's injury history, the Niners for depth. The Cards only if TC is an absolute disaster. We got Thigpen for a fifth IIRC, so I won't say a low fourth is out of the realm of possibility. It'd most likely have to be a dire situation with the stars aligning and multiple large women singing.



    Yes
    You'll have to take the Bears out of that mix I think. They signed Jason Campbell in the event of a Jay Cutler injury. IMO, he's probably a guy that could/should be starting in the NFL over some of the "starting" quarterbacks out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoninFin4 View Post
    You'll have to take the Bears out of that mix I think. They signed Jason Campbell in the event of a Jay Cutler injury. IMO, he's probably a guy that could/should be starting in the NFL over some of the "starting" quarterbacks out there.
    I had no idea they signed him. I thought he was still in Oakland. Yeah, they're out.


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    Since Earl Morrall, have we brought in another team's veteran QB, who did not get hurt within a year or so?

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